Forum Topic

QPR debts now £177 MILLION!

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/06/qpr-debt-177m-report-premier-league-relegationAnd these are the people to whom our beloved Council have mortgaged the public open space at Warren Farm for a pittance!You really couldn't make it up could you?

Nigel Brooks ● 4408d50 Comments

George      "Has it occurred to you that the GLA predict London increasing by a million            people in the next few decades? Where are those people going to play? "Well if not QPR then maybe a new housing estate for all these extra people, lets trow in a couple of schools as well. All very much needed !!would you be happy then !!

Declan Devine ● 4399d

@D"We wont be around then."That's is your root problem. Residents who care fight for the long term. How can such appalling short termism be turned into a feasible argument?Why do we have open land space going down towards Brentford. Because a small band of people fought for that 40 years ago. Its now our generation who must carry their burden. we owe it to them.You have not except in a narrow sense, just like the Council, explained the benefit to the community.Disposing of two thirds of a very major site all of which can be improved upon  for the community is a criminal theft.That's why the deal stinks.Why was the whole community not consulted. That really stinks. I cannot understand why any person would wish to align themselves with a deal that stinks.There were other bidders who you have completely ignored. They offered and had quite enough cash to improve the site without the Council stealing our public asset.Were these other bidders going to shut off two thirds of the site and deny us proper full size football grounds: and cricket grounds for use only when footie is not being played? I doubt it? What is so special about a declining football club? What's so special about two billionaires who cannot show their faces to the local residents?Has it occurred to you that the GLA predict London increasing by a million people in the next few decades? Where are those people going to play? Have I just identified a new money making opportunity? A new app called Couch Potato?

George Knox ● 4400d

It could make a lovely wooded area, reminiscent of the old Bluebell Woods over time.

Nigel Brooks ● 4401d

NigelBut by just leaving WR to fester away will benefit absolutely no one, and we as local rate payers will be still funding a wreck, and gaining nothing from itAll for what really is a point of principle.

Declan Devine ● 4402d

In a word Simon yes.Rather a 'festering' asset which we all own than something which has been materially transferred, at below market value,to, effectively, a foreign-owned corporation for 200 years.

Nigel Brooks ● 4402d

Of course the length matters. You can't simply dismiss it by saying 'we won't be around'. It is, with respect, that type of short term thinking that causes all sorts of problems. QPR (or their successors) will be the beneficial holders of a community asset until 2214 meaning that the community can derive no financial benefit from something that they currently own. Short-sighted by the current Council and conveniently short-sighted by those who cannot see this as a problem.

Nigel Brooks ● 4402d

Fair enought Declan - was going to say just the same in my last post. Nothhing personal of course, we're just poles apart on this. I am going to make an effort to attend Ealing Town Hall on Wednesday 24th April for the planning committee review - will be interesting to see how that pans out.

Bud Richards ● 4402d

Put another way Nigel.Would you rather the place fester for many years or for QPR (or anyone for that matter) modernise and improve it and as a consequence make use of it and help enhance the local area?

Simon Wycombe ● 4402d

Don't really know what to say Nigel,That was the councils decision, they obviously don't value the land at what you do,As to the length, whats it really matter, whether its 100 years or 200, I am sure QPR will have moved on by then anyway, and we won't be around then !!!

Declan Devine ● 4402d

BudWe have to agree to disagree, I think I perfectly backed up my statement just because you disagree you say its not backed up. Sorry thats your problem not mine.I am not certainly not misguided or blinkered, just because my views don't match yours, I have researched WF in depth. I am also not interested in any political view either, all parties in Ealing have neglected WF over the years, so seeing the opposition parties jump on the bandwagon makes me irritated more than anything else.There is always room for everyones opinion, i certainly won't put down anyones opinion, but does not mean I agree with you.I think we do agree on the state of Warren Farm and no there has been no investment since you laced your boots up. And if Ealing did want to enhance the facilities and not pass it over to QPR, I would not be opposed to that, in fact I would welcome that, my point is there will never do that as they have not got the funds, as to someone like Goals, they had the chance, in fact they opened further down the road at Grasshoppers a few years ago, ,minimum price for a pitch £44 for an hour up to £75 in peak time,  and Grasshoppers benefited from that.If QPR don't get the plans approved by the High Court, then we will several more years of rubbish facilities, until the council get pressure for new homes and decided to sell up for a huge profit, And if you or anyone thinks that won't happen then fine, everyone welcome to there own views.

Declan Devine ● 4402d

I would simply appreciate a response from Declan or other supporters of this scheme to the questions I posted earlier about the excessive length of lease and the gross undervaluation of this community asset.

Nigel Brooks ● 4402d

Hi Declan,Thanks, but I did not miss what you said - I asked for you to back up your earlier statement of this benefitting Ealing - you could not do so.I think you're misguided and blinkered in your views about how this will benefit Ealing - despite your latest post and the article you kindly linked, you still have not convinced me how Ealing Council giving away open green space to a business that operates in another London Borough, free of charge, on a 200 year lease, is good for Ealing. I played a lot of football at Warren Farm in the 1990's and early 2000's. It was always interesting playing there and praying pre KO that you got one of the higher / level pitches and I agree the facilities were shocking back then, so at least 10 years on since I last laced my boots up there, and believing there's been zero investment since, I assume that it's even in a worse state.But that is not reason to bend over and let QPR take our land.If it were my say, I would invest in this and keep it entirely as a community facility, enhancing it with a modern clubhouse with new changing facilities and something that could be used for functions. Perhaps, (BIG perhaps) I would look to engaging someone like GOALS to purchase some of the land to fund this project. That makes money for us in the long run and keeps the land in our hands. Once its signed over, there’s no getting it back.

Bud Richards ● 4402d

BudSorry maybe you missed what I said, so again and a bit more detail.As well as the main QPR training centre which will be private, part of the deal is for QPR to build a community sports centre on Warren Farm, this will include pitches and 3g/4g pitches to be used all year round, as well as an indoor sports centre. This is what can be used by schools, clubs, etc.As well as this QPR in the community will be active at the site, they have been in existence for 20 years and one of the best community schemes in football.They run several kids football camps all over west London including in Ealing, as well as education programs for young people out of work, also support a downs syndrome kids football club and many other activities both in the UK and all over the world.This would be based at Warren Farm.Personally I think this is what would benefit Ealing, whether you agree or oppose really does not bother me, what bothers me is people who oppose without researching the facts.And some of the mis-information has been laughable.I wrote an article for a QPR website, explaining the whole Warren Farm story,http://www.qpr.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=348873

Declan Devine ● 4402d

Another thought - QPR is in the London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham - why are Ealing even involved ?

Bud Richards ● 4402d

Declan,You said, "there will be other benefits to Ealing by having a football club at WR" - you still cannot tell us any. I'm sorry to harp on about this, but to believe that QPR will allow the kind of access that we'd all want, especially to their main outdoor pitches, is naive.This is not a good thing for Ealing and I for one will be supporting the protests against this. I will actually be interested to learn whether this could be overturned if, as we hope (expect ?) that Labour get ousted in the forthcoming elections.If nothing else, I'd far rather the land was left to graze, trees planted and it was turned into a mini woodland.

Bud Richards ● 4402d

Two questionsWhy a 200 YEAR lease?Why has the land been undervalued by as much as 80%?

Nigel Brooks ● 4403d

I think that you are right there Declan , I say to my friends who are `antis` be careful of what you wish for , if a private corporate leisure outfit comes in , say like Riverside at Chiswick , David Lloyd or Virgin Leisure , I don`t think that they would be offering the types of facilities that would benefit local sports organisations and at a price that they could afford and if not it`s hard to see the local council of whatever political colour leaving the site to remain as it is what with the present Government seemingly intent on relaxing the planning rules. None of us want to see housing development here.

David Burke ● 4403d

I will not hide the fact that I support QPR, but I also leave in Hanwell so also an Ealing Resident, I really would not care what football or rugby club took over the land so long as the community sports would benefit, QPR will build as part of the deal a community sports centre, that will have state of the art indoor and outdoor pitches, that can be used for various sports, used by local clubs, schools etc, and anyone in EalingTrying to find pitches to train on over the last few months has been difficult, just look at the one 3g pitch we have at Elthorne, nearly fully booked every evening, coats a minimum  of £44 an hour, the run down Gym there cost more than most private Gyms, £10 hour for Badminton, this is run by our local council and again no investment to modernise.So why not let someone like QPR take this on. Leaving it to the council no matter which party control the town Hall we would never see anything done with the site. Until one day a developer come in with a huge amount of money to build houses and then we lose the land totally.

Declan Devine ● 4403d

With just a little imagination, this place could be a gold mine to Ealing. Look at Trailfinders as a classic example - there is no reason why the council cannot build a similar facility with both football and rugby pitches and a club house / bar that can be used for functions and the like.

Guy Edema ● 4403d

I know of two rugby clubs who would love to use Warren Farm but have been 'warned off' as the site is changing hands.As has been mentioned, the recent foul weather exposed the poor drainage of many sports pitches w countless games cancelled. Warren Farm was usable with good drainage but could not be booked. At well over £100 for a simple hire how much revenue has been lost?

Nigel Brooks ● 4403d

The only prople that really want QPR's training ground to be at Warren Farm are the QPR fans themseleves and even then, that is not all of them. I know plenty of Rangers fans who will not allow their love of their football club to usurp their anger at what Ealing Council are trying to do.It makes no sense whatsoever to give this land away FOC to a football club, on the promise that they'll share access. If you beleive that, then you are a fool.Football clubs love their privacy for their prima donna cherubs and if QPR do manage to establish themselves in the Premier League, then that will only increase. Their stars do not want Joe Public sniffing around them or their overpriced sports cars.I accept the argument that the facility has sat in a sorry state for some time, but that does not mean you give it away. If Ealing Council are happy to pay £13,500 for a f**king Xmas Tree, then I think they should be asked some hard questions about their spending and priorities. Warren Farm is clearly not one of them right now, but to give it away is, in my opinion, criminal.I'm interested to learn what benefits you feel there will be to Ealing resdidents by QPR moving to Warren Farm ?

Bud Richards ● 4403d

GeorgeSometimes the return is not just financial, there will be other benefits to Ealing by having a football club at WR, Comparing the WR deal to a private house sale is not a comparison.You may be right that pressure would force the council to do something in the long term, but where has that pressure been for the last 20 years, while the changing rooms and facilitys have neglected. People just did not care, but only care now because they won't be able to walk on the land.As to water logging well it may not be a marsh but the pitches are in a poor state, poor drainage and generally neglected like the changing rooms.And any local pitches that have been updated have only been done by getting grants form the FA, not from council funds !!

Declan Devine ● 4403d

Sorry, was that another (failed) attempt at irony?If not, bring it on!

Nigel Brooks ● 4403d

Nigel, you and yours wouldn't know what the word thin mean.

Christine Daniels ● 4403d

ChristineThe (attempt at) irony is wearing a bit thin to be honest.

Nigel Brooks ● 4403d

But its football George.

Christine Daniels ● 4404d

Any council is a trustee for the land it holds for its residents. Trustees have duties. Would Declan give a house away or would he expect a proper return for it. No where does he think further than the end of his nose. Most others see the issue in perspective.Simply because the Council has let the changing rooms crumble to nothing does not mean they will be dust for 200 years. They won't. They are not waterlogged either.Pressure would have forced these facilities to have been modernised without giving away two thirds of the land which will be completely in-accessible to the public. Look what happened with the libraries.There are some extremely rich people in this deal. I don't like it.

George Knox ● 4404d

Because that is how it works, Bud. Why should the rich be expected to pay?  Also this is football and its a funny old game.

Christine Daniels ● 4405d

Why on earth would we help out QPR who's owners have a collective fotune in the billions ?

Bud Richards ● 4405d

If only they hold 'sold to the highest bidder'.

Nigel Brooks ● 4405d

Let's start a facebook page!

Christine Daniels ● 4405d

Yes I believe this open space shouldn't be given awayThe council don't want to pay for its upkeep, it's rarely used, I hated playing there, the place is an eyesore and dog walkers (the very few that do use it) shouldn't be in thereSo sell it to the highest bidder and get money in to spend on plastic bottles as Christmas trees, unnecessary road works, reduction in parking and more bus lanesI'm sure people in the borough will be happier with another 400 houses, 500 flats and a mega Tesco on the plotWouldn't they?

Colin Goodman ● 4405d

So how will anyone prevent them?  Perhaps an epetition, or someone could start a facebook page.  That'll do it.  Or we could get used to the idea that whilst cuts are happening everywhere, a failing football club with such strong links to the LBE and its residents, has lost a fortune and we must help them out.  Its football, its sport, so its important.

Christine Daniels ● 4405d

Ealing Council have no right to give this green open space away and I hope they are stopped from doing so. One thing about such space folks, they ain't making any more of it so it's important that we preserve it.To believe that QPR will pony up all that money and allow Joe Public to use it is naive.

Bud Richards ● 4405d

Since when was it important for any taxpayer to get a good deal?This is about a failing football club. They should have the right to claim it back off the taxpayer.

Christine Daniels ● 4405d

You don't miss things until they're gone Declan and the  way in which this was handled delivers a really poor deal to Ealing's taxpayers.

Nigel Brooks ● 4405d

Thats fine with me Nigel, what we will get is a community sports centre that will be used 7 days a week, instead of an open field just used on Sunday mornings,Enough other open spaces around hear to walk on so won't miss it.

Declan Devine ● 4405d

nor will the animal from next door that keeps using my lawn as a toilet in a few weeks time!Dog owners, such thoughtful people.

Christine Daniels ● 4407d

Look back on those poo collecting days with affection then Declan as you won't even have access to over half of the site which was a PUBLIC OPEN SPACE until this council gave it away.

Nigel Brooks ● 4407d

virtually isn't free though Nigel.  They have racked up millions of pounds in debt, they must be helped out.We did it for bankers and now we must help footballers.  Surely we have a duty to help those who are in dire need of £177 million plus so they can chase a bag of wind around a field for 90 minutes?

Christine Daniels ● 4407d

Yes maybe we have given it to QPR, but thats got to be better than leaving it to rot as it is now.As to right of way, it football pitches now not an open park even though its full of dog poo on the pitches, had the lovely task of walking the pitches first with poo bags before we the boys match there,

Declan Devine ● 4407d

Christine, 'we' virtually have given it to QPR.

Nigel Brooks ● 4407d

Ealings Council Tax payers should give QPR Warren Farm and pay for anything they want for as long as they want.  It is good for children to learn that football and sport are more important than anything else in this life,  It's important to teach them that its OK to lose, spend millions and waste hours "training".  We will be there to pay for it.

Christine Daniels ● 4407d

I believe that the cost of 'restoring' the facilities is less than the cost of the beleaguered Southall car park and north Acton 'town square' at well under £5million. the balance is what QPR will spend on Warren farm to introduce facilities that will not be available to the public. £6 million alone will be on training facilities exclusive to QPR.In addition, the length of lease (200 years) will deny public access for generations and the pittance of a fee requested of QPR undervalues the site by as much as 80%. (£50k per acre as opposed to a realistic valuation of £250-260k per acre).As to Council Tax, £2.5 million spent on an 81 space car park in Southall which will never, ever, fully recoup it's costs. The most optimistic break-even estimate is decades to recoup the build costs let alone any ongoing maintenance.Apart form that the sale of Warren Farm is a great deal for Ealing's residents.

Nigel Brooks ● 4407d

Regarding the original post- 177 million pounds ? , The Guardian article by David Conn ( probably one of the best football correspondents around  especially regarding the sport`s financial problems )  makes no mention of the Rangers debt and instead refers to Leicester City and Nottingham Forest ,a later post on the forum does state the correct amount of debt that QPR are in. As for Warren Farm Sports Centre, as a resident of Hanwell for over 30 years I have seen the steady decline of the centre from the excellent facility that it once was , used by schools and organisations across West London to the shambles it is at present , many leagues won`t allow their affiliated clubs to play there. The proposal is for QPR to take the centre on a leasehold basis spending 30 million pounds to bring it up to standard and allowing for community use . I`m fairly sure that Ealing Council don`t have this kind of money to spend on this facility , if they were to it would probably send the council tax bill to residents through the stratosphere much to the annoyance of many contributors on this forum.

David Burke ● 4407d

On a different but Rangers related note I understand Tarabt is doing well in Italy at AC Milan.

Keith Iddon ● 4408d

I think you will find that the Guardian article is not very accurate, the club posted losses for the season 12-13 of £65m yesterday. This is mainly related to transfers dealing while in the Premiership, you also have to remember the club is owned by two very rich people. Tony Fernandes owns 66% of the club and Forbes Asia valued Fernandes' net worth at $625 million the other 34% is owned by the Mittal family and again Forbes estimated that he has personal wealth of US$16 billion in October 2013, so in terms of have they the capitol to develop Warren Farm the answer is yes, and to a very high standard both for the club and more importantly for the community sports facilities that is very much needed

Declan Devine ● 4408d

The club had been in chaos before promotion but some crazy decisions. Sacking Warnock was the decision that has caused this explosion of debt. There was a debt when we got promoted. Best bit would be to be a yo-yo club for 4 or 5 years until things stabilised. This story appeared two months ago but the sanctions bit of journalism was a bit loose then. I am sure the club in trying to get things under control will be aware of any sanctions. also currently the football league sanctions would affect most clubs in  the championship. especially newly relegated ones. so are unworkeable and are likely to change anyway.

Peter Chadburn ● 4408d

Still awaiting the Judicial Review AFAIKTheir losses went up by £63 MILLION last year alone in their failed attempt to stay in the Premiership.Under the new FIFA/ UEFA rules from 2015 any club outside the Premiership sustaining losses of more than £8 million in a season can have points deducted, be relegated or the ultimate sanction for repeat offenders is expulsion.

Nigel Brooks ● 4408d

Unsustainable for a club of their size to have losses like that - even for someone who owns an airline. WRT the Warren Farm issue, anyone know the latest ?

Bud Richards ● 4408d