Forum Topic

Knife amnesty in West London

After the murder that took place in Greenford, there is a call for a knife amnesty.I don't see how that will help and is an absolute rediculous scheme.Do you honestly think that a murderer is going to hand over all his knives.What the police and the council should do is invest in more CCTV and have more police patrolling the streets and ban hoodies.

Rhys Smith ● 4369d33 Comments

The police do their job only to be let down, yet again, by the judiciary. Grrrr!

Nigel Brooks ● 4346d

See the homepage article about the local no mark jailed for no length of time, after remission that is.

Keith Iddon ● 4346d

I really cant see the point in wasting money on an amnesty, if they want to get rid of their knives they could throw them in the bin. If a 5 year sentence (to serve 5yrs) was given as standard for carrying a knife, it would not take very long for more than half 'knife carriers' to stop carrying. They don't even serve 5yrs for stabbing someone, at the moment.

Marie Shelny ● 4364d

Don't give up Keith, just the result that those who cannot face facts would want you to do.

Nigel Brooks ● 4365d

I give up.

Keith Iddon ● 4365d

You appeared to be broadly supporting Sus when you said 'Amen to that' in response to Nigel's 'By all means have an amnesty then enforce the damned law,Stop and search to the nth degree and let's have the judiciary actually imposing the supposedly mandatory sentences for carrying an offensive weapon.If certain sections of our community complain about heavy handed policing have them speak with the victims of knife crime. It's for EVERYONE'S safety.'

Caspar Mason ● 4365d

BenDo you mean whole life term prisoners?There are only just over 60 of them. If you are saying that 20% are non-white then that is still disproportionate to the ethnic minority population but not germane to this discussion.I would like a message to be loud and clear to ALL sections of society they as equally likely to be stopped and searched if they are suspected of carrying an offensive weapon and, more importantly, prosecuted with a commensurate penalty if guilty.

Nigel Brooks ● 4365d

That is a meaningless stat. unless you state also what % of whites make up the community.

Keith Iddon ● 4365d

Nigel,Over eighty per cent of prisoners who are serving full life term sentences are white. What message should be sent out to this section of the community?

Ben Owen ● 4365d

Non gun related crime is higher (burglary, theft,violence) pro rata here than in the states.

Keith Iddon ● 4366d

You are doing it again Caspar...misrepresenting what I said that is. Nothing to do with colour or stop and search on in case someone is carrying. What they have done in the states is to nick people who have been observed breaking the law. From dropping litter to no car tax etc. and they do it relentlessly until the crims get the message that they are being targeted because they break the law. Is that clear now ?

Keith Iddon ● 4366d

I have no desire to turn this into a thread bad on racial stereotyping but one must face the fact that the perpetrators of both the murder of Dean Mayley and of the stall holder in east London ere young black men.I wonder how you get the message across to that particular section of our community that carrying knives is 'not cool'.I with to God that I had the answer and an alternative to 'stop and search'.

Nigel Brooks ● 4366d

I don't think you know what libertarian means.Why do some people always focus on the black community? Because they bear the brunt of stop and search mission creep.

Caspar Mason ● 4366d

On your second point: who knows? I don't, but I wouldn't be surprised.On the first point: Your description of targeting 'gangster types' who fit the bill leaves the door wide open to the problems with the sus laws in the first place. No-one's disagreeing with people being done for crimes, but police have had that leeway before and, as with all powers like that, it inevitably gets abused.Re Zero Tolerance: the jury is out on whether it was the factor that lowered crime rates in the US, partly due to crime rates declining in non-ZT cities at a comparable rate.

Caspar Mason ● 4366d

From BBC News"An 18-year-old teenager has been charged with murdering a 14-year-old boy in Essex.The body of the boy was found at about 11:00 GMT on Monday at a flat off Rosebery Road in Grays."HOW MANY MORE?

Nigel Brooks ● 4366d

Caspar and Ben you have both distorted what I said...police in the USA pulled people for crimes that people were observed doing, not on any sus policy. I would like to know how many times the killers of Dean Mayley and this poor  chap who ran the market stall have been let off, cautioned, excused or whatever you want to call it before they killed someone.

Keith Iddon ● 4367d

Of course. But do you think any of the (probably) teens involved in East Ham are driving around with gold chains, a BMW x5 and no job? When people complain about sus laws, its not cos the police are targeting gangsters, it's because anyone fitting a (often racial) profile who doesn't look like they're coming home from church gets stopped, without the slightest hint of involvement in a crime.

Caspar Mason ● 4367d

Why do some people always focus on the black community?Blanket enforcement for the benefit of society as a whole.If this means stopping and searching black, pink, yellow and every other hue sobeit.Incidentally, the market stall holder stabbed in east London has now been murdered as he passed away earlier today. A fourteen year old and a sixteen year old have been charged with his murder.How many more knife murders before the bleeding heart libertarians admit we have a problem with young men carrying knives?

Nigel Brooks ● 4367d

It's not about colour Ben but about lifestyles. Having no discernible income and driving around in a flash car might be a sign. Police aren't daft and would know who is regarded are local criminal big cheeses. Or would you say there is no need to get tough with known law breakers?

Keith Iddon ● 4367d

Describe a gangster type? I would be keen to hear what your model gangster looks like.Stop and search on Black Minority and Ethnic communities is shameful - even the shadow Home Secretary agrees with me! The Labour party wants to ban the police on hitting targets (that is the number of stop and searches rather than stopping the same people) but this was blocked by the government.

Ben Owen ● 4367d

If someone is breaking a law I and police confront them I don't see how it can be.

Keith Iddon ● 4367d

Isn't that to some degree harassment?

Christine Daniels ● 4367d

We could try what has worked in American cities. That is police targeting known offenders and 'gangster' types and confronting and possibly charging them them every time they drop litter, drive without road tax or have an overdue library book etc. The system we have seems to let people off with warnings about 'low level' offences until they think they can get away with anything.

Keith Iddon ● 4367d

Stop and Search to the nth degree is not the answer. It creates large swathes of (mostly young, black) people who are treated as criminals first. And that leads to anger, resentment and a tendency to live up to those expectations - if you're not being treated like a decent member of society, why act like one?The 'certain sections' you refer to are likely to contain both the aggressor and the victim in many cases."They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety", to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin.

Caspar Mason ● 4367d

Both of the youths charged with the murder of Dean Mayley have also been charged with possession of an offensive weapon.How different may the outcome of this wasteless and tragic loss of life have been if they had been prevented, by proactive and 'rigidly enforced' policing, from carrying knives in the first place?In the meantime Connor Tremble, a 17 year old, has been murdered by being stabbed in Oxford and a market stall holder is critically ill in east London after being stabbed.Enough is enough.

Nigel Brooks ● 4368d

You're right, Nigel. What's the point of having a ten-year sentence for carrying a knife when nobody's ever given that sentence?

Susan Kelly ● 4369d

Amen to that.

Keith Iddon ● 4369d

By all means have an amnesty then enforce the damned law,Stop and search to the nth degree and let's have the judiciary actually imposing the supposedly mandatory sentences for carrying an offensive weapon.If certain sections of our community complain about heavy handed policing have them speak with the victims of knife crime. It's for EVERYONE'S safety.

Nigel Brooks ● 4369d

It gives the advantage that the public might think the amnesty has had a far greater effect than it has. Knives are readily available anyway. I could understand a gun amnesty as you have to buy one from a crim...not any store on the high street like you can a knife.It up to you to decide for yourself whether you think they think it's worth 'all of that subterfuge'.

Keith Iddon ● 4369d

I defer to your superior knowledge Keith - but what advantage does this give the police?Is the general good feeling arguably generated by the perceived success of such a scheme worth all of that subterfuge?

Phil Kay ● 4369d

I an week or so you will see a pile of knives that have been 'handed in'..this will be the same pile of knives give or take that they showed you when the last amnesty was on.

Keith Iddon ● 4369d

They do seem to work to some extent. There are people (by which I mean men) who want to start over.

Susan Kelly ● 4369d

Isn't it easier for people to hand them in rather than the police go looking for them?It may also come as a relief to those who want to get rid of their undiscovered weapons without fear of being prosecuted. It also presents a great opportunity for those who want to turn their life around.

Ben Owen ● 4369d