Forum Topic

Consultation for Piccadilly line to stop a TURNHAM GREEN

Southfield Conservative Action team, Patrick Barr, Nusrat Ghani and Janet Young are campaigning for the Piccadilly line to stop at Turnham Green all day. The consultation held by TFL,  was initiated by Angie Bray MP and Mary Macleod MP! Have your say and go online to tfl.gov.uk/piccadillyline. The consultation is now live until 7th October! We are very lucky to have a Conservative run campaign! It's only the Conservatives that could make this happen!

Patrick Barr ● 4597d14 Comments

Typical of what politicians do. They jump on a bandwagon and cannot resist taking a pop at each other trying to score points irrespective of whether they are is the same party or opposites.But as usual the issue gets fogged and pushed aside.It would be better to start a new thread as parachuting people into soft touch constituencies and wards is an issue but not the issue being debated here.

Oliver Gregan ● 4591d

You did yourself no favours with that post Benjamin.Keep on campaigning and doing what you do well, like exposing shortcomings and dubious practices and you will garner many more votes than by denigrating former colleagues and associates.

Nigel Brooks ● 4591d

Why are the Tories unable to select candidates that live in the ward? Janet Young lives in Hanger Hill ward. Is the Tory base so poor nowadays that they are busing in candidates? I meaning, tubing in.

Benjamin Dennehy ● 4591d

Richard, I now use the District Line more than I use the Piccadilly Line.My home station should be South Ealing but I now go to Either Ealing Broadway or Gunnersbury.I use the tube extensively 7 days a week and have done for nearly 25 years. And worked for the Underground for many years. As did my grandfather who was a senior engineer.I never go by the timetable unless using Gunnersbury.I've mainly given up on the Piccadilly line at busy times, the overcrowding is intolerable and one has to miss so many trains before being able to board that it is quicker to travel to a District line station! The congestion on the line to Acton Town can mean the 3 min journey from S E to A T can regularly take up to 18 mins.That's on top of trains regularly being held at Northfields to regulate the service. Even though the trains are full.The journey times are slower than 1972 because you have overlooked several key factors.The 1973 stock trains were delivered slightly larger than the 1959 stock  which previously operated the line. Consequently, there are permanent speed restrictions on curves in the tunnels.Loading times have increased substantially since 1972 by a huge percentage.The trains carried guards enabling the trains to operate with safer shorter stop times with the cumulative time saving being 3-5 minutes.The Heathrow extension was not in use and the luggage, loading and pressure put on the line is way beyond planned expectations.You simply cannot compare the 1972 service to the current service, It has a completely different operating structure.There is no slack in the timetable at all and the signalling system is at breaking point. Not helped by a woefully inadequate computerised interlocking signalling operation for Acton which has caused problems since it was installed in the 1990s. The semi manual control system was far better.70 seconds is the exact additional stop time for a normal distance station. However, this is misleading. Braking and accelerating times have not been fully factored in as this is a fast section of track it has a chain effect and thus slows trains behind. The entire Piccadilly line timetable is structured around the fast non stop section of line and is signalled accodingly for the average highest speed. It allows for time catching as well as regulating.  There is nowhere else on the entire line to do this.As Hammersmith is the next stop the delay may only equate to 70 seconds but the chain delay will back right up the line and for each stop will increase the journey time.It would be far more prudent for Turnham Green users, nay all western end District users to seek assurances from TfL and LU to upgrade the service on the District Line and have a far better service productivity record. This is an area that can be improved and 100% reliability at Turnham Green Junction is achievable far more so than the damage that will cause delays and overcrowding the length of the Piccadilly Line.NB 16,500 passengers per day is low for a surface Underground station with a branch junction. Nor did you mention just how many change for the Piccadilly line in either direction.

Oliver Gregan ● 4591d

"The District Line at this point is more than adequate"Oliver, do you actually experience it or are you just looking at the timetable?  In practice the timings are often erratic, and the service is not adequate for a station that has more than 6 million passenger entries and exits per year. "The delay that just a one minute stop at Turnham Green will be more when factoring in braking and accelerating times. This will add two more minutes"LU themselves have stated that a stop at TG would add a total of 70 seconds to the Acton Town - Hammersmith journey.  That could easily be absorbed from the excessive padding in the current timetable, which takes 9 minutes more from Cockfosters to Acton Town than in 1972.Michael Brandt: "The only solution is to increase the District Line service which can be done by ... [running extra trains] terminating at Olympia via the non service used West Ken loop ( if it's still there)" There is not, and never has been, a direct link from West Kensington to Olympia.  There is only a single track connection from the eastbound District into Lillie Bridge depot."There is no slack on the Piccadilly Line as mentioned"I said there was slack in the timetable.  You are right that demand is increasing on the line, but LU aren't making any attempt to meet it.  They reduced the frequency ten years ago, and increased the journey times more recently.  The Paris Metro achieves 50% greater frequency with equipment that is just as old as the Piccadilly.

Richard Jennings ● 4592d

Far more important would be for our politicians to tackle the real problems looming. Like the lack of a cohesive nigh bus service.Ruislip for example, still has no 24 hour bus services and yet huge rafts of ordinary and middle income people are having to move to the outer boroughs as it becomes impossible to afford a shoe box to live in this district.it's 24 hour city, more and more are having to work hours to suit the demands of the economies that are now driving the world economy and whilst it is never going to be practicable to run the underground 24/7. A fully integrated nightbus network is something that will be needed really soon. And is far more achievable.

Michael Brandt ● 4594d

There is no slack on the Piccadilly Line as mentioned, that's extremely outdated information.The population has increased on the Rayners lane section by a huge percentage in the last 4 years and use if the piccadilly service on this section is expected to increase by another 30%. Demand for increases in capacity are going to have to be met. The signalling cannot cope with the current demand on the line or the lack of turn around capacity at Rayners Lane.  The signalling currently allows stopping at Turnham Green but cannot operate safely without slowing down the service or reducing the intensity. To satisfy the demands of a thousand would cause problems for tens of thousands of passengers from Hounslow and Uxbridge to Southgate. Just like the M25, One small insignificant delay causes tailbacks far from the source of the delay.The only solution is to increase the District Line service which can be done by running the District line to Uxbridge or Northfields ( as it did in the 1960s) terminating at Olympia via the non service used West Ken loop ( if it's still there) Thus increasing District frequency through Acton to Hammersmith.But in all reality, the District provides a frequent and under capacity service from Turnham Green and the users of that station don't seem to realise how lucky they are compared to other stations within a short distance.If the Piccadilly line does stop at Turnham Green, all you will experience is what is experienced at South Ealing and Northfields, trains so crowded it often means missing two or even three trains. The first place people get off is Hammersmith so at least those coming from Acton Town via District line get a chance of a space at that point

Michael Brandt ● 4594d

It's a complete nonsense and a waste of effort.There are very sound common sense reasons for why the Piccadilly Line does not stop at Turnham Green during busy periods. Sound reasons decades ago and equally sound now.The District Line at this point is more than adequate and it is just a few minutes to Hammersmith and Richmond which are key links. Turnham Green Passengers get a better connection for a range of links.The delay that just a one minute stop at Turnham Green will be more when factoring in braking and accelerating times. This will ad two more minutes and this will cascade right down the line increasing the delay time in both directions. It could delay train times by up to 15 mins over the current journey times - Just to serve the whims of a small group who have a good connecting service.The irony is it could meant the District line being a faster option to Hammersmith or Acton Town. With the latter it already often is.It would only be a viable idea if the District Line service to Ealing Broadway is reduced further or the Richmond service reduced, both of which are unlikely but politicians would be doing a service to get those services guaranteed.It is nothing to to with politics other than show how little they understand the basic technicalities of operating a railway.One has only to look at the increase in journey times on the Brentford to Waterloo line after Ken Livingston insisted on every station being served.The fast train offered the ONLY fast 15 minute way into London from West London.  That's faster than in a car at 4am!The curent journey time is now 12 mins longer than in pre electrification days.

Oliver Gregan ● 4594d

"They have 2x district lines and should not be making my journey longer."There is only one District Line.  The fact that it splits into two branches at Turnham Green leads to a more erratic service, which in any case has only half the number of trains per hour that the Piccadilly has.  Your journey need not take any longer.  Part of the case for stopping at Turnham Green is that there is a good deal of slack in the current Piccadilly timetable which can be better used by stopping at TG and not having to stop elsewhere "to regulate the service".

Richard Jennings ● 4595d

What actually happened was that in advance of the last Mayoral election local non-party political campaigners forced a reluctant Boris Johnson into saying that he would look into the issue if he was re-elected. He conveniently forgot about this but Chiswick-based Angie Bray and Mary Macleod are key allies of his in constituencies that they will do well to hold onto and they persuaded him to do something to help their cause.The consultation is clearly just cosmetic as you can see that there is no intention whatsoever of stopping at Turnham Green. The phrasing of the questions in the survey make it clear that TfL have made their minds up. If Angie Bray and Mary Macleod did actually initiate this consultation, how inept of them to allow such a bias in the questions.Although I live in Acton, Turnham Green would be my nearest station although it is too far to walk and the bus connections are poor. I will be replying in favour assuming an improvement in frequency of the 272 bus route.

Andy Jones ● 4596d

I remember Nirj Deva campaigning for this. I will also vote against. They have 2x district lines and should not be making my journey longer.

Aileen Dover ● 4596d

Those with slightly longer memories will recall that the local Lib Dem councillors, supported by GLA Assembly member Caroline Pidgeon, have been campaigning for this to happen for many years, when local Conservatives as well as Boris Johnson were dismissing the idea as impractical. Even now Ealing Tory leader David Millican is sitting on the fence - see his comment quoted at the end of the Ealing Today report!

Tony Miller ● 4597d

Thanks for the heads up. I have submitted my response against the proposal.

James de Vivenot ● 4597d

Wow, you mean that trains don't stop for Socialists?The sooner we drop the party-political twaddle that divides us the sooner we shall, as a country, get back on track (pun intended).

Nigel Brooks ● 4597d