Forum Topic

question on lowered pavements and access

Does anyone know the answer to whether or not a lowered pavement gives someone an 'automatic' right of access? I know some have a white line provided by the council,which is different. However, my understanding is that it is a courtesy or possibly an acquired right of access.The roadways and curbs belong to the council not the householder. Specifically, we have a neighbour with a garage that has not been in use for 20 yrs, during which the locals have parked there. The property was then let and now the new tenant is using it as a workshop for his business. Although no cars go in or out..obviously because he is using it for other things, he maintains that no one should park on the street outside it because the 'garage is in constant use', (albeit not for cars to get in and out) What he basically wants is to park his own vehicles outside his workshop. He treated our neighbour in an extraordinary racist fashion, saying he would not 'speak to people like' her and today my son found a note on our car threatening to remove it, if we didn't. Maybe some of you even know where this is.

Ros Harrison ● 4607d30 Comments

"Does the law make any reference to how this should be enforced or what punishment will be meted out to transgressors?"The Traffic Management Act and associated regulations provide for local authorities to carry out such enforcement. In London, it's enforced by the boroughs, with penalties set at rates agreed by London Councils, the body that coordinates this sort of thing on behalf of all London boroughs.  Contravention code 27, "Parked ... adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway", higher level penalty.  In Ealing that's £110, or £55 if paid within 14 days.I don't live in Ealing, and I'm not familiar with their register or its purpose.Sorry for the delayed response; I don't often visit this forum.  If you want to contact me, I'm at parking10@rjen.me.uk

Richard Jennings ● 4600d

Richard - that's useful.Does the law make any reference to how this should be enforced or what punishment will be meted out to transgressors?Having read the Act, do you think Ealing's concept of a register of dropped kerbs fits with the legislation?  It's clearly designed to make the process easier for them.I would still say that if the OP's neighbour's dropped kerb has not been registered, no-one will take enforcement action.

Phil Kay ● 4602d

The relevant law is the Traffic Management Act 2004, section 86.  This says that "a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway ... where ... the footway ... has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway for the purpose of ... assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway."There are various exceptions, one of which is that, if the dropped kerb is to provide access to a single residence, you can park there with the consent of the occupier (and this therefore allows the occupier to park there himself).I think it's fairly clear that this dropped kerb was provided to enable vehicle access, though it's not actually used for tthat purpose now.  So without the occupier's permission, you should not park there.  The council can issue a PCN or remove the vehicle, though usually only if they are contacted by the occupier.White lines across such dropped kerbs are purely advisory.  Section 86 applies with or without the line.

Richard Jennings ● 4603d

All interesting posts, reflecting both that different Boroughs have different rules for how dropped kerbs are treated and that there is no limit on how ready some people are to pass judgement on others, however mistakenly.This is a link to Ealing's dropped kerb enforcement policy:http://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/200332/parking/1375/dropped_kerb_enforcementIt says: "You, members of your family and friends can park in front of the dropped kerb outside your property at any time without receiving a penalty charge notice (PCN)."It also discusses the differences which apply if a Controlled Parking Zone is in place.It's unclear whether people who dropped their kerb many years ago are on the current "registration list" and it implies that enforcement is limited to the Council issuing a PCN - no mention whatever is made of towing cars away etc.As per an earlier post, I think those of us who knew the "old" rules, whereby the police would come and castigate those who parked over others' driveways, are now out of date.  It's not clear whether any laws have changed but - in practise - the police will not take as active an interest as they used to and Council employees / contractors generally have fewer powers than uniformed officers.Ros - I suggest you call the Council and ask for proper clarification and tell them that threatening notes have been left on cars by the occupier.  It would also be wise to keep any of these notes, as they will be useful evidence should any cars be damaged.Overall, I don't think there is a moral question here as your neighbour does not require a dropped kerb to access his driveway.  He is either covered by dint of being on the registration list or he is not.  If not, that space is properly available to all.Good luck!

Phil Kay ● 4603d

As I stated in my earlier posting, this driveway leads to a garden and I accept that it could be argued he could push a bike through but he certainly cannot drive a motor car through and into the curtilage of the property.  This dropped kerb may have been installed and used by a previous owner I have no idea since I have only lived here for the last year.  However, my neighbour assures me that in the 9 years he has lived here no one has parked a vehicle off road in this garden.  As things stand today it simply would not be possible for a car to pass over this dropped kerb and park off road as the area concerned is full of miscellaneous buildings (including a conservatory), trees, weeds, furniture and general junk.  Why anyone would want a conservatory to overlook Steptoe’s junk yard is a mystery to me however that is exactly what it is like.  Therefore, there is a dropped kerb leading nowhere since as things stand entry by vehicle is not an option.  I cannot believe that councils give permissions for dropped kerbs so that someone can push a bike through a gate – perhaps I am wrong.

Bernadette Paul ● 4604d

Actually S. D.  Brock, what you find 'interesting' is complete rubbish. The reason I asked the question was that I wanted to know what the position is. In other words, and for your benefit, not because I think I am beyond the law, but so that I can comply with it. But, thanks anyway for your input.

Ros Harrison ● 4604d

Bernadette - You cannot have a dropped kerb installed leading nowhere!  The parking area is measured by the council contractor and has to fulfil the relevant conditions before they agree to install a dropped kerb.  I find it interesting that both Ros and Bernadette appear to think the law of the land should not apply to them. Has our society become so selfish that we no longer respect our neighbours' right to enjoy their property without interference?

S. D. Brock ● 4604d

I do agree that if it's clearly not an access to anywhere for a vehicle ( Remember a Motor cycle is a vehicle as is a caravan or a trailer) then there ought not be a dropped kerb.It may be that the person has not got round to putting in a car stand and has had the dropped kerb put in first.Maybe there should be a time limit on unaccessible dropped kerbsI think you should let Mr X go bonkers on a regualer basis as if  anyone did come out to tow away, they would see he does not have access to park a car and would get hit for wasting time.Of course what you can do is use the driveway for one car and park another car over the driveway if you have a second car which means you are not parking a second car outside someone else's property/space which is what we always do

Oliver Gregan ● 4604d

Curiously I just recently made enquiries of Hounslow council as to a neighbour’s right to exclusively use a dropped kerb as his private parking space.  Where I live my property faces the side garden fence of someone who has a dropped kerb leading to the side of his back garden.  He has installed a sliding fence but there is no possibility of him parking his car in his garden as it is full of sheds, a conservatory, trees, weeds, furniture and general rubbish but, if anyone parks across this dropped kerb he goes bonkers.  According to LBH he is entitled to do so!  Personally I think it’s outrageous.  On that basis everyone could instal a dropped kerb which leads nowhere and thereby ensure they have a permanent and exclusive parking space.

Bernadette Paul ● 4604d

That is the opposite to what the council said to me OLiver when I had my kerb dropped 4 years ago. They said to be legally enforceable(ie: you can have a car towed away) you must have a white line with a line at right angles and joining the end of it at either end. Extra cost £75.

Keith Iddon ● 4604d

The Police can do it but are unlikely to these days, the council however can.The Police will act if it is a burning issue ie a Pregnant woman in Labour or a disabled person or such.If they are pressed by someone who knows all the rules they may well also actPrivate contractors cannot unless appropriate signage and approval is applied for by the owner.

Oliver Gregan ● 4605d

Thanks Oliver, but towed by who? By private contractor or council?

Ros Harrison ● 4605d

No. Just in the usual way, along side.

Ros Harrison ● 4605d

Thanks, this is useful. Are you sure though, because other advice seems to differ? Indeed the Ealing website says enforcement is only applicable to dropped kerbs or pavements in order 'to assist vehicles to enter or leave the road'....This tends to imply that if the garage is now part of the premises rather than a garage, vehicle access isn't possible beyond the pavement! In conclusion a white line will get you a ticket from the traffic warden and 'enforcement' by the council is not possible unless registered. It seems also that paying for a dropped kerb does not automatically secure you a private parking space.

Ros Harrison ● 4605d

The white line thing is new and only applies in CPZs.Some councils have applied white lines across dropped kerbs simply because too many refuse to observe the highway regulations.Even if there are no markings, the right to access still applies and one is entitled to have a vehicle removed if it obstructs safe access.

Oliver Gregan ● 4605d

I'm not sure how the wardens know or don't, although mines never been "registered" it's always had a white line, I think the white lines are just a standard thing, from the day we had it dropped 16 years ago, the council has painted it, I think the registration of it is only enforceable if you ring, but was told if I then parked across it myself I would be liable to be ticketed, so decided not to risk it.

Tracey Mehdizadeh ● 4605d

It does not matter whether you use it or not.It is paid for and registered and the right of access is part of that.It's been like that for over 80 years.Only if an access is no longer physically there, or obstructed by a wall or trees can a dropped kerb be removed or ignored. Even then it is still classed as access.So it is simple, unless it is your access, you cannot park or obstruct any of it from the last standard level kerbstone.

Oliver Gregan ● 4605d

Are you parking your car in a place where it is overhanging a dropped kerb?

Bernadette Clover ● 4605d

Hmmm.... block it from what? He isn't using it for access.

Ros Harrison ● 4605d

A lowered kerb means it is his right of way.  You should be a good neighbour and not block it.  We had a regular "blocker" who went on holiday and left the vehicle partially blocking our dropped kerb.  We had it towed away. They stopped doing it.

S. D. Brock ● 4606d

Typical modern day Police answer.They are there to enforce the law be it criminal or civil. They used to do point duty which is not dealing with civil or criminal law.They won't do that now either.

Michael Brandt ● 4606d

Altogether my dropped kerb cost £1061, £65 of which was an 'inspection' fee. The inspection was an absolute joke, taking about 5 mins and consisting of a bloke with a clip board, a tape measure and a pencil.The actual work in putting the kerb in and the concrete down took less than 5 hrs for 2 men.I could have done the whole lot with a mate for about £250.If you are getting it done, ask them to put as much concrete and as little hardcore down as possible as you will get a stronger base.I got the blokes on mine to use all concrete for a £20 drink.

Keith Iddon ● 4606d

Sorry Tracey, does that mean that you get a 'ticket' from a traffic warden? Generally, speaking that would presume that traffic wardens know if it is registered, unless there is the 'white line' across which is a clear indication. I thought someone had to apply to the council for it to be enforced.

Ros Harrison ● 4606d

Tracey, that was very useful. I looked up registration. Enforcement is only applicable to dropped kerbs or pavements in order 'to assist vehicles to enter or leave the road....'

Ros Harrison ● 4606d

Dropped kerbs now have to be registered to be enforceable, and have been for a few years as I found out when I couldn't get off of my drive, it is indeed a civil matter and not police, the downside to registering is that you then are liable for a ticket on your own vehicle if its left across the drop

Tracey Mehdizadeh ● 4606d

Is the fee a one off or annually renewed? It's a one-off, currently around £1000-1200 if you meet the conditions which include, currently, minimum garden depth requirements plus planning permission if you are on a main road.

Nigel Brooks ● 4606d

You have to have a white line painted acroos the access to the driveway(extra cost of course) for it to be enforcable as far as far as I know. It is a council not police matter also I think.

Keith Iddon ● 4606d

I guess the point is that the use of the unit has changed and now it is a workshop. He just wants a private parking space for his convenience. So, I could just show disuse? Presumably a converted workshop where you could only fit dinky toy cars would be enough? Alternatively, I could drop my own kerb.....Is the fee a one off or annually renewed? Blocking an exit for vehicular access on the other hand, is different.Nigel, I thought that you could call the Council and get them to tow the vehicle away.

Ros Harrison ● 4606d

An interesting point"The Police are obliged to enforce removal should exit  access be blocked."The right of egress has to be maintained but not, according to the policeman who I was talking to when cars routinely parked across my drive, the right of access.I did labour the point but he was insistent that right of access was a civil matter and should I so wish I could effect entry to a vehicle that was blocking my right of egress but would be in bother should I do the same simply to get access.

Nigel Brooks ● 4606d

He is correct. Much of the fee for a dropped kern is to pay for the right of access.In fact it is the right to exit that is the legal issue so the dropped kerb should be kept clear at all timesThe Police are obliged to enforce removal should exit  access be blocked.Tis applies to all dropped kerbs even if not in use but not if the access area is removed ie a driveway is bricked up.  In disuse has to be proven.

Michael Brandt ● 4607d