Forum Topic

A spare room?

Is it fair that if one lives in social housing and one has a room that's spare most of the time, that one should swap accommodation for a smaller place?

Gerry Tan ● 4628d37 Comments

And as I have said before, the rent charged by most (small) landlords is dictated almost entirely by the costs they have to cover to provide you with the house to live in in the first place.First by a country mile and a half amongst these costs is the mortgage.Nobody is going to get a house for less than the price of a mortgage (plus other costs - like maintenance, which, curiously, seems to be required very much more often in houses not owned by the occupier) unless they are being subsidised by the state.Of course, the house does not actually cost less, as the shortfall is being picked up by the taxpayer.Make them build houses for less I hear you retort?Have you seen the price of bricks I reply?And what about the cost of labour?  Would you like to see people working for less than the minimum wages in order to reduce the price of houses that they build?And if you manage that then good luck with finding a builder (i.e. a person with the necessary managerial skills to actually manage such a project) who is prepared to do so without earning a margin of profit.No, house prices are what they are for many interlocking reasons and the only "easy" solution is for the taxpayer to just give houses away to those who fancy one.Hands up all in favour of that?Okay, so there are a few of you, but history shows that there are not enough to make it a permanent government policy - otherwise we would already be living in that happy utopia wouldn't we?

Tony Colliver ● 4615d

"...council property is not subsidised. All council properties are paid for in full..."I'd love to see the figures on that.Surely you are forgetting that somebody had to pay for the thing to be built in the first place?

Tony Colliver ● 4615d

I agree with you also, I think that you should have a choice, and buying should be more expensive, not renting. We need far more affordable secure housing. But buy to let has become big business, making money out of housing benefit and charging extortionate rents. http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/aug/09/buy-to-let-house-price-boom-mortgages Only ethical landlords should be allowed.

Jaz Brown ● 4618d

Yes Jaz, I'm not sure what you're getting at.Regarding Britain being unequal in wealth...it was ever thus - some people have lots of money, but most would like to have more and a few are poor. Nothings changed really.

Gerry Tan ● 4621d

Er.. you`re a bit all over the place there, Jaz. What exactly is your point?

Tom Clifford ● 4621d

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html

Jaz Brown ● 4621d

Who said anything about what anyone wants? It is AT LEAST 10% cheaper and 20% in some cases. If you believe Shelter and Ealing Council that is. I hate to burst your bubble, but most( probably all) of the countries in the world do not distribute their wealth evenly (and why should they if it is earned ?) but if it was, I have little doubt that it would end up back in the same hands after a while. At which point, you would no doubt want to distribute it all over again.

Keith Iddon ● 4622d

Yes capping the rents would be a good idea, I`ve already agreed eith you on that. But why you assume everybody wants to buy, and people only rent cos they can`t afford to buy is beyond me..We DO have housing shortage, which is driven by population growth (This is NOT a trigger to start a debate about immigrants so please don`t do that anyone..), shortage of new builds, and empty properties. But it is a shortage by the old fashioned economic principle of supply and demand

Tom Clifford ● 4622d

'This is not a bad thing but it is the norm.' Really? When the private rent exceeds the average wage, yes the average wage, why would anyone want the social rent to be only 10% less. The private and social housing sector rents used to be much closer The private sector has gone mad because of greed. Keith, rents for social housing should be cheaper than the private sector. The private sector has gone mad. Why should the social housing sector go the same way? After all those with mortgages have had it quite easy with the interest rates. Remember there is a lot of money in this country, it is just not distributed evenly.

Jaz Brown ● 4622d

You could start by banning companies, British and foreign from buying large numbers of new build properties, many of which are left empty.I used to live in public housing Jaz and the rent was a lot cheaper than private at the time. I also know quite a few people who live in council accommodation and their rents are at least 10% less than private sector equivalents. This is not a bad thing but it is the norm.

Keith Iddon ● 4622d

More than 50% of the properties in London are now rented, that's the official STATS, I am sure that there are more unofficially rented out properties. (Those avoiding tax)  . People want to buy, but the properties are too expensive. Capping rents would bring more properties on the markets, making them cheaper. Some STATS for you. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2161147/Rent-vs-buy-Owning-home-194k-cheaper-lifetime.htmlhttp://england.shelter.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/627901/Response_to_the_London_Rental_Standar_final.pdfWe did not have a house shortage, we have an avoidable housing shortage, and a wish by many to be rich whatever they do, what happened to just having a happy balanced life. 

Jaz Brown ● 4622d

Well there might be some merit in capping private rents, but i can`t see how banning BTL mortgages would help. In fact i can see it making things worse! If you are trying to sell your home there`ll be less people trying to buy so you won`t be able to sell. And it means that there are even less homes available to rent than there are now! A lot of people don`t care about buying, either because they don`t want to or more likely can`t see a way they could ever afford it. If all the homes have gone to people who are living in them who are they going to rent from?

Tom Clifford ● 4622d

Ban and cap on the present ones. That will free up thousands of homes that are being privately rented to pay for the mortgage on the property. As I have said before there are landlords who already charge affordable rents as there were when I was an apprentice hairdresser and a very low income in the 80s. I never had a problem with finding an affordable, decent bedsit/studio to rent.

Jaz Brown ● 4622d

So are you talking about a cap on how much private landlords can charge? You mentioned a total ban on buy-to-lets before?

Tom Clifford ● 4622d

Another thought, maybe the government want to keep the rents high and not build social housing so they can blame immigration for a housing shortage and divide our country with their propaganda.

Jaz Brown ● 4622d

All new social housing properties and tenancies now have much higher rents, nearly 80% of the market value. So nearly all tenancies will need to be in receipt of housing benefit.  Nobody now gets a permanent tenancy, they are reviewed every 3 - 5 years. So communities are going to become more and more unstable. There is going to be less and less money to be spent in the economy by these people and those paying private rents. Unless your parents can help you out with a deposit, you are stuffed. Something has to be done!!  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-23536991 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23273448 I am wondering if any of you have children right now who are wanting to rent, or know a young couple from London who has no hope of renting privately, and would never have in the past thought of social housing, but now that is their only way. We need a rent cap and a massive build of social housing and a cap on the selling of any homes to buy to let or to property companies.

Jaz Brown ● 4622d

That would seem an fair regulation Susan, but what if the new smaller property actually had much smaller sized rooms, such that it would be difficult(impossible) to take the furniture or if the new property was in an unforsakenly remote place, far away from ones family and friends not to mention shops, clinics and other essential services?Imo, what we need are many more smaller social housing properties built for the unfortunate people who need a home in which to live. We must look after all citizens in society.

Gerry Tan ● 4622d

The reduction in benefit should apply only if the person is offered a smaller place and refuses it.

Susan Kelly ● 4622d

What a lot of us have been saying ever since the half-arsed bedroom tax was devised 18 months ago: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-big-lie-behind-the-bedroom-tax-as-families-trapped-with-nowhere-to-move-so-cannot-avoid-new-penalty-for-having-spare-room-8745597.html

Ben Owen ● 4622d

Yes you could easily stop Buy to lets...? But why..?So you stop buy-to-lets meaning people either have to buy, or rent from an already extremely limited pool of council housing stock??? What happens if people can`t afford to buy, where do they go?? You need to think this through...

Tom Clifford ● 4622d

Affordable is a third of the household net income. Also in the past, council rents were often more expensive than some private renting. Also I can assure you many  council/social housing rents are more expensive than anyone's mortgage over 10-15 years old. And you could easily stop buy to rent, making only the selling of homes as buy to live in. A friend of mine has just bought somewhere in Twickenham, and the previous owner vetted all and told the estate agent, no buy to rent, or no companies, only people who are going to live there, because they cared about the area. Many areas are becoming privately  rented out areas  and people do not care about their properties nor do the landlords as long as they get their rents, dirty and horrible. Now as places are so expensive you are getting two families living in a house, and across from me, a families living in studio flats.

Jaz Brown ● 4622d

What price is 'affordable' and who is going to build homes without there being a big profit in them?

Keith Iddon ● 4623d

They already know each other Jaz, and as there is no compulsion in the system have chosen not to move. Their housing needs (both couples) have changed considerably but their tenancy rights have not changed to match that. In a lovely fluffy world where there was enough public housing for everyone it wouldn't matter, but with a waiting list as long as your arm and an available supply as long as your finger what are we to do. No govn. is going to build public housing unfortunately so we have to make the best of a bad job.Council rent,historically, has been considerably lower than the private sector so don't imagine it is not lower by design.

Keith Iddon ● 4623d

I`m not sure how (of even why you`d want to) stop buy-to-lets?

Tom Clifford ● 4623d

Would also like to add, with the price of private renting all Londoners will be needing social housing. We should be building more affordable homes and stopping buy to lets or foreign buyers buying homes in London for investments. Houses are built as homes not investments.

Jaz Brown ● 4623d

Then why don't they swap Keith? Maybe you should get them together and work something out for them. And council property is not subsidised. All council properties are paid for in full. Private/market rent is rent paying someone else's mortgage, so if bought in the last ten years, expensive. There are many many private landlords who are renting out at decent prices, very close to, if not the same as social housing, these are landlords who are not greedy and do not have massive mortgages that they are expecting someone else to pay, or wanting to make a killing out of necessity.

Jaz Brown ● 4623d

I know of a couple who have a one bed council flat and two teenage kids, boy and girl. They live up the road from an elderly couple who live alone in a three bedroom house. Go figure.

Keith Iddon ● 4624d

Indeed, that is a media induced name. It is a reduction in benefit not a tax.

Keith Iddon ● 4624d

I wish people wouldn't call it a spare room tax, or similar media-generated names. It causes so much confusion. My octogenarian father asked me anxiously the other day if I was going to have to pay 'this spare room tax' and it took me several attempts to explain that it wasn't a tax and applied only to people in social housing.

Susan Kelly ● 4624d

This is a public housing issue and if you are in public housing your needs ( not wants) at the time of allocation would have been assessed. If your circumstances change, then so do your needs and as you don't own the property and are getting a subsidised rent then you could say it's fair enough to demand that someone moves to a property that reflects their reduced level of need. They should tread carefully however as family life has changed a fair bit in the last 20 years or so and there should be compassion built in to the system, but the principle is there for all to see.

Keith Iddon ● 4625d

What ever happened to "an English mans home is his castle" there is no smaller accommodation available to people wishing to downsize, local councils advice is to find an exchange ! but in the mean time pay the bedroom tax, no wonder people in that position have started to take their own lives is it.

Tracey Mehdizadeh ● 4625d

"The Tories should be ashamed of themselves. It is an unfair policy which won't achieve what the government hopes it will."------------------------------------------------------------The Lib-Dems should be more ashamed, you'd expect this from the right wing, but not the Liberals too!But as well as downsizing they do give you the choice to move to Peterborough, Hull, Yorkshire etc. Sounds more like social cleansing to me. This government's problem is, that soon the only people left in London will be (apart from those already owning their own home) the very rich, and the embarrassing social housing Tenants (in other words the very poor). Not the picture of London the government wants visitors to the capital to see.

Leslie Bailey ● 4628d

Many of government's polices have been ideological attacks on the poorest & most vulnerable in our society. The Bedroom Tax is just one of them. I believe the public will turn, and it can't come a day too soon for me.We also need Labour to promise to reverse these decisions

Simon Bell ● 4628d

"The Tories should be ashamed of themselves. It is an unfair policy which won't achieve what the government hopes it will."Absolutely, rushed legislation which, as Tom noted, is the typical 'sledgehammer' approach.

Nigel Brooks ● 4628d

The 'bedroom tax'(which only applies in social housing)was designed to encourage tenants to downsize if they are not using all their bedrooms. Fair enough. Nothing wrong with that intention. But if you know that the majority of tenants are prepared to downsize rather than get into rent arrears because of the 14% cut in housing benefit it paints a different picture. The biggest problem is the lack of housing; there are around 1.2 million people on the waiting list chasing a one bedroom flat. Yes, 1.2 million prepared to downsize. Even Camden are  offering tenants £25k to move, but there simply isn't the right accomodation for their tenants to live close to where they work and where their kids are at school. Some local authorities are saying it would take them three years to move all under occupying tenants into one bedroom flats.  So what is the answer? Build more housing and then start to deal with problem. I have always said that if you want to have a packed residents' association meeting put controlled parking zones on top of the agenda. Their will be a rush of people making their views heard. For the next meeting, put a planning application on top of the agenda stating that a developer wants to build new housing in such and such a street and another rush of people will come down objecting (albeit slightly less than the boring CPZ's). Everybody likes talking about the need for new housing, but they don't want it on their doorstep. Topically, the High Court dismissed today a legal challenge on the government's bedroom tax, which was brought about by a group of people who are either disabled or are parents of of disabled children. They are now having a cut in housing benefit despite having a recognised need for an extra bedroom since they are unable to share a bedroom with their spouse or sibling. These vulnerable groups are going to struggle to pay their rent and may end up losing their home. The Tories should be ashamed of themselves. It is an unfair policy which won't achieve what the govenrment hopes it will.

Ben Owen ● 4628d

As a general principle to make full use of out limited housing stock, yes it makes sense. But our lovely Tory government is using its blunt implement sledgehammer-type policies again...

Tom Clifford ● 4628d

Not everyone's circumstances are the same, but as a general principle, if you are in social housing and you can move to a property of a smaller size, then you should

Nigel Brooks ● 4628d