Forum Topic

80 mins for a 65 today

Just what is going on with the 65 route of late? For weeks now it has been so overloaded before it even gets to the High Street.It's not helped by lots of Mums who seem to have larger and larger pushchairs so laden with shopping one wonders if there is a child in there or whether the child is now at university.Today though despite the ibus indicating 7 mins it was 80 mins before a bus arrived at South Ealing and then could only take four passengers.The overcrowding  even during the day is now so regular, even when the service runs to time something needs to be done.But today was appalling 2 hours from Ealing to Kew Bridge.

Oliver Gregan ● 4653d43 Comments

If you are self employed you get no benefits and have a very long wait if your business folds. before you qualify for the minimum.You get no paid holidays, no sick pay and no other benefits enjoyed by most employees.It is not an option that comes without hard work and long hours.And very many highly qualified and skilled people have been forced into a career of short term schedule D contracts and becoming a 'supplier'My staff are also self employed and use cars for the job as they are more versatile than vans being that they can use them for their families when not carting work stuff about.I have to include myself in that predicament, and whilst I do OK and have a few employees, a 70 hour week is still the norm.You also need to produce accounts annually which unless you are an expert in accounts and can do the self certification forms and get all your entitlements will require an accountant.That is not to be confused with being a casual worker which generally are not schedule D Commuting to work is not as heavy as it was, Bus use is up hugely and the fact that the tubes are crowded almost all day now reflect that.On top of that there are CPZs all over the place and near almost every tube station. Ascott Avenue is now stuffed with cars but it's a long walk to any station, hardly convenient, that's how difficult it is now.But solid honest completely independent statistics are not available and this makes it very hard for any major improvements to be created, funded and carried out. Which suits the political scene very well.

Michael Brandt ● 4649d

"Many are sole traders"Many people are declaring as self-employed now due to various benefit changes - it usually means part time adhoc work with no particular fixed method of operation or place of work.  The idea that self employed = person with a van is a bit out of date as many won't be able to afford a vehicle.Indeed, quite a few people on this thread need to pop out and get some up to date facts on the way London's population and transport use have evolved over the last 15 years or so as there are some assumptions being made that aren't really valid any more.

Thomas Barry ● 4649d

"especially as all London Borough ratepayers are funding a large part of TfL and are the largest paying customer group"How'd you work that out, by the way?"Boris needs to wake up and kick a few lazy bums."The same Boris who's frantically trying to build thousands of luxury homes on every bit of land he owns in order to reach his 2020 vision of a 10m population London, or some other, mythical one who's actually able to run a city?

Thomas Barry ● 4649d

Sorry but that's complete rubbish - the legal max dimensions of normal road vehicles in this country have remained the same for many years - 2.55 metre width for any vehicle except double-walled refrigerator trucks; 11 metre length for rigid vehicles, 16.5 metre length for artics, and 18 metres for rigid vehicle plus trailer combination.I would be astonished if your anecdotal claim of a dramatic increase in the proportion of large vehicles in the traffic flow on this corridor had any substance at all.The likes of Ocado and many other delivery companies anyway use much smaller vehicles of box-transit type and size, and most of their delivery stops are in the numerous residential backstreets not the main road which is fronted by comparatively few dwellings. I guess that's the sort of vehicle you mean by 'long wheelbase vans', but their impact on traffic capacity is little if any greater than a typical private car. I should think - though haven't the hard data to prove it - that the biggest growth area is in monster Chelsea Tractors and such like private 'cars', a high proportion of whose drivers I suspect are at the lower end of the range of both driving skill and of consideration for other road users.One frequent commercial goods delivery operation which does cause serious holdups on South Ealing Road, several times daily, is the Sainsbury Local store, which persists in getting deliveries by large artic lorries which contravene the max delivery vehicle size stipuleted in the conditions of planning consent for the store; and all of whose drivers persist in reversing from the highway into the site, shunting back and forth repeatedly - and obstructively and hazardously across South Ealing Road in the process - again in breach of the store's planning consent which specifies all vehicles must enter and leave the site in forward gear.- perhaps you might care to press the Council to take planning enforcement action to eliminate that traffic nuisance and hazard - as long as you bear in mind the longstanding Sainsbury family links with the Labour Party, which has all too clearly influenced matters here in the past.

Chris Veasey ● 4649d

This is all very interesting. Something else that was dismissed was the fact that West London and it's suburbs has a very high proportion of self employed. The highest per 1000 in the country. Many are sole traders and very many employ just a few staff often also on a freelance basis.Most self employed work very long or very unsocial hours and many do use specialised tools or products so do use a car rather than a van.In several TfL surveys, they ask a question about your occupation. If it is self employed or a journalist, they end the survey.I've had this happen at least a dozen times around the tube and rail and bus trips and even a road census in Ealing Broadway once.I can't see how they can ever get an accurate build up when so many get deleted.But one top tip. If you do get pulled up in a survey and don't want to get delayed, simply say you are a journalist or self employed and off you can go!

Michael Brandt ● 4650d

The 90% of single occupancy cars was a cooked up statistic from a TfL survey that was rigged for the tram.It did not ask what the car was being used for.I know this as I was working for TfL on this very consultancy at the time.It all had to fit a pre determined criteria which is why the end result had it been approved would have been nothing short of a very expensive disaster.It was so interfered with that many of my colleagues resigned in disgust and others asked to work on other projects instead..Whether this still goes on I don't know but I have not heard of such stuff in more recent years.Very many cars are used in the same way as small vans, For the purpose of going about ones business. Equipment is carried in the vehicles, out of sight.Often equipment that it too heavy, delicate or valuable to transport by public transport. Not to forget that a lot of 'tools of the trade' in a great many occupations are prohibited on public transport especially TfL services of all types.Compilation of this data was refused by TfL. Quite why I have no idea but possibly because it would have made for a significant percentage of car journeys.Most working car users do follow a different pattern so the main am peak is the commuter car user and the school run.Traffic flow in peaks in London is generally better than in many cities but it's far worse on saturdays and sundays even with far lower volumes of traffic.That has more to do with poor driving abilities of non regular drivers not using the road space in the same way.What would be good is a completely impartial survey that does take in all road users and why.  With no meddling or loaded questions.But given the current nature of most consultations offered in matters to the public, I doubt we will ever get a true and clear picture.It's funny but private businesses wanting to know facts will want every possible facet of info and cross checked, but never with an authority or contract tender.

Oliver Gregan ● 4650d

That's probably true but they are getting so large that they take up a huge amount of roadspace and long wheelbase vans are not included in the HGV statistics but according to the latest reports are the biggest growth area in road transport.I guess that includes Ocado,Tesco and delivery companies but that also should mean less cars on the road as they are delivering to your door.It's the roadspace not being able to accomodate so many large vehicles and sitting on top of the 65 as I do most days it has really become quite apparent that there are a lot more very large trucks on the South Ealing to Kew section and the Kew to Richmond Circus section in both directions and it used to be mainly cars.

Oliver Gregan ● 4650d

Correct - Large vehicles (buses, coaches and lorries)  typically of the order of 10%-ish of total traffic

Chris Veasey ● 4650d

surely HGVs (or LGVs) are victims of congestion rather than the cause if you look at the numbers

Mark Star ● 4650d

Well let me assist you - if northbound 65's are stuck on Kew bridge or its long approach road from the south, and if the bus operator has the control system in operation thay should have so they know about it, then the service gaps can be plugged by getting relief buses (which they should have ready) out of the Brentford depot to do the run up to Ealing - simple, or should be, if there was the will to try and overcome the traffic problems and provide an acceptable frequency service.

Chris Veasey ● 4650d

It's not cars I see when stuck on the bus, it's HGVs and large vans more than cars.There are far less cars about than there used to be.

Oliver Gregan ● 4650d

>Boris needs to wake up and kick a few lazy bums.Boris once described buses as "socialistic" which I imagine in his brain is stored in the same bit as words like like paedophile and psychopathic.Don't expect too much from him in the way of improving the bus system.

Paul James ● 4650d

>It simply pushed traffic back down Kew Road all the way to Richmond and beyondYeah, too much traffic! 90% of cars are single occupancy, that's a practically criminal waste of London's limited road space.>With no improvements possible ?Less traffic surely?

Paul James ● 4650d

I still don't get it though.If you put more buses on teh street that's even more congestion.And the OP states that it took two hours to get from Ealing Broadway to Kew Bridge, more buses isn't going to change that on a bad traffic day (of which there are many, I know, I regularly sail past long traffic queues on my bike).Surely the bus companies can only ask for bus lanes and measures to tackle traffic, which they probably won't get.

Paul James ● 4650d

I just don't understand why our elected representatives at all levels cannot see the damage that is occurring with all this over the top development happening and not a jot being done with the already inadequate means to service all this.I think Mr Brandt you are brave to say what many think but it does baffle me that this is not being treated more seriously by Ealing and Hounslow councils.I know it's a bit off the initial complaint about the bus service but it does all fit into the bigger jig-saw.Mr Veasey, The operator of the 65 is not based at the Metroline base in Brentford but are London United at Fulwell which is a good 30 mins away.The operators do though have a depots at Chiswick- Stamford Brook and Shephers Bush and I agree they could have a much better contingency for what is a very regular occurance.I agree too that it seems a total cop out by TfL  to fine the operator for problems that are more down to TfLs wholly inept planning and contingency and the secret tendering system which should have far more transparency especially as all London Borough ratepayers are funding a large part of TfL and are the largest paying customer group.Boris needs to wake up and kick a few lazy bums.

Oliver Gregan ● 4650d

They put a bus lane in on `Kew Bridge as part of the Bus Plus initiative. It was a complete failure.It simply pushed traffic back down Kew Road all the way to Richmond and beyond delaying the 65 and other routes even more.The only real solution would have been be to widen Kew Bridge to allow a bus lane and left turning traffic.This was done a few years ago with Kingston Bridge and by using the same outer facings it looks exactly the same as before. Both bridges are not all that old anyway.This was possible for the last 25 years due to a section of derelict land on the North bank which could have been compulsory purchased.It may have encroached Kew Green slightly but by using the footpaths the actual road would remain and just the footpaths could be  the other side of the tree line away from live traffic.An objection from conservationists got this scuppered and now we have a monstrosity of a development on the same site completely obliterating the view of the bridge, river and Kew.It also means now that there is absolutely no scope to improve traffic flow for this bottleneck.With no improvements possible and a plethora of luxury developments  approved by Hounslow Council there is already an increase in population and a surge in demand for buses as well as the appearance of a lot of large 4x4s locally.There is also a noticeable increase in HGVs using Ealing Road to try and avoid the A4 and Gunnersbury roundabout to access Kew Bridge and the SCR.Now throw in the huge increase in population that the Brentford Football Club development will bring at Lionel Road as well as the 14,000 more that Hounslow want to cram into the Eastern end of Brentford with no infra structure improvements factored in.I think we are likely to see almost total gridlock for hours on end 7 days a week and the fallout of that will reach well into Ealing, Brentford and Isleworth, Richmond, Sheen and Chiswick.It will leave the 65 as an almost unuseable service with a very long standard journey and massive regular delays.It appears none of this gets considered seriously when planning applications are processed.To my mind, only  and only when all the infrastucture is either in place or facilitated for, should any major development be approved.It is clearly seriously beginning to damage the well being and viability of this whole district for the existing local populus's day to day lives

Michael Brandt ● 4651d

Well I think it's a great deal harsher for the punters, particularly the elderly and/or mobility impaired (many of them in severe pain if they have to stand around for long), to have to suffer such long gaps in service just so the bus companies can maximise profits by not providing cover for such known variability in traffic conditions, and so TfL can get away with not bothering to police their contractors' performance properly and ensure the latter provide the standard of service they've contracted to provide - to say nothing of TfL not botherring to provide evenn basic decent passenger facilities at most stops.In this particular instance the operational base remains nearby at Brentford, having been inherited from the previous operator Armchair, and the operator is therefore well placed to have relief vehicles and drivers on standby ready to get on the road to fill such gaps.The reality is that bus service operation and route control, and the industry mentality, remains firmly stuck well back in the last century and is well overdue for replacement by a more service-orientated and punter-oriented culture.If even a fraction of the care and resouces lavished on improving life for the motorist was diverted to bringing buses and bus services into the modern era we'd have a far more civilised society.

Chris Veasey ● 4651d

I find that delays at places like the London Road or Kew Bridge are not at all predictable. Some mornings you sail alone, others it's stop-start all the way, with no obvious explanation in either case. I think it's rather harsh if the bus companies are fined because their buses are stuck in traffic.

Susan Kelly ● 4651d

I know there are sometimes unseemly and frustrating delays on some routes, but all things considered, the bus services in London are generally pretty good. Mind you I think the Turkish national bus service(especially their local dolmushes) are to be admired. I think the Turkish Govnment have improved their public transport since they seem to desire to want to join the European Union imo. The dolmuses are the numerous smaller buses that are available at all times of the day and start their journeys whenever they are full. We could do with that system on our roads - its so very efficient now.

Gerry Tan ● 4651d

Well if it's often so they're meant to take that into account in drawing up the detailed working timetable they have to submit as part of their tender to operate the service, to provide the service frequency specified by TfL in the invitation to tender; and to provide the staff, vehicles and other resources to (st least) fulfil that timetable. [trust me, I was involved in tendering for TfL bus services for a commercial operator for a short while in a previous life and I doubt the system's changed dramatically since].Sure there's slways completely unexpected traffic incidents, but congestion on Kew Bridge doesn't come into the 'unexpected' category. I suspect in reality a lot of the problems come from operators, having won the contract, under-resourcing the service to maximise profits in the hope they'll get away with it often enough for the extra profits to substantially outweigh the occasional penalties - that's what contractors do, in the bus industry as in other areas of commerce.

Chris Veasey ● 4651d

I think you mean Kew Bridge, but I agree: it seems unfair.

Susan Kelly ● 4651d

I don't get this though, why is it the operators fault if Chiswick Bridge is often impassable under weight of cars in the area?

Paul James ● 4651d

I waited 25 minutes for an H91 yesterday. Would have been there by car in that time

Margaret Wittich ● 4651d

The bus company's contract with TfL requires the operator to operate the service fully in acordance with the timetable - TfL tender docs state (regardless fo the realities of London traffic) that it 'should be possible' to do so - it's up to the operator to put in the staff and vehuicle respurces to keep the service up to scratch.So, put in formal complaint to TfL on each occasion, and TfL should be penalising the operator, and taking account of the frequency and severity of such service failures when  the service contract comes up for renewal, which it does every few years on every route.

Chris Veasey ● 4652d

It also used to go beyond Haven Green to Scotch Common, I'm reliably informed  -  same informant (a former Ealing Council transport/ traffic officer) also said it was Ealing Council's closure of the public lavatories there that caused the route curtailment to Haven Green - can't blame London Transport (the bus operator in that era) for that - where the hell did the council imagine bus crews (and for that matter anybody else there and not living locally) were meant to 'go'??

Chris Veasey ● 4652d

Ah Yes! I think that was one of my all time greatest bus journeys.On a Sunday on a 65 to Leatherhead. A long journey on an RT bus - The bus before the Routemaster.A hot sunny day and the huge wind down windows all open,Sitting behind the driver watching the speedo going haywire as he belted down the A243 from Malden Russet to Leatherhead. The noise was great and the ride as good as anything in Alton Towers!It was just brilliant.Did it again some years later, same old buses but it was now a 71 to Leatherhead.The Night 65 still goes to Chessington.But missed most are those RT and Routemaster buses and the conductors they were so much better in so many ways.No M25 then and the noise and

Michael Brandt ● 4652d

It used to go beyond Chessington Zoo to Leatherhead.

Oliver Gregan ● 4652d

I'm older than you. It used to be 2/6 (12.5p)each way 4/6 (22.5p) return and Chessington Zoo was around, IIRC, 5/0 (25p) to get in but you had to be accompanied by an adult.Any of the 'grown-ups' in the Car Park by the bus stop there with their families would gladly take your 5/0 and walk you in.Happy, far more innocent days.

Nigel Brooks ● 4652d

Anyone remember when you could take the 65 from Haven Green all the way to Chessington Zoo?! Think it only cost about £1 but it did take forever and a day

David P Archer ● 4652d

Thanks for that I have supported the route extension and commented that an extension to Baling Broadway would provide a vital link to West Middlesex Hospital and a much needed 'radial' link between South West Trains and Great western services as well as taking pressure off an already 'overburdened' 65 route.

Nigel Brooks ● 4652d

Found this link for a consultation for the 235 to run to GWQ.I have added comments that it should run to Christchurch ( New Broadway ) and lay over at bus stop L in the High street.If they get 50 similar they have to sit up and listen.https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/route-235

Oliver Gregan ● 4652d

Last sentence sums it up admirably.There is a disconnection between 'achieving targets' and 'delivering a service'. You can guess which one takes priority.

Nigel Brooks ● 4652d

My wife got stuck in that yesterday and was two hours coming home with the shopping. She was still in an unapproachable mood by bedtime!!The delay problem seems to hit the 65 quite often. It only takes a glitch at Kew Richmond and Kinston and the whole route goes down like a deck of cards.The dead mileage to Fulwell depot means that drivers legal driving time is expired before they have finished the service duty which often leads to 5 or 6  buses being taken out of service.The problemis with the depot so far away from Ealing ( Fulwell ) TFL and the operators have failed to sort out the problem that affects the Ealing to Kew section of the route.The problem is that whilst no doubt the operators get penalised, it is not really their fault. If the roads cannot cope with demand or if an RTA occurs.In any case it should be the stranded passenger who gets compensated. Just where do these 'fines' actually go?It is TfL who ought to be fined as well as local authorities who are approving planning applications for huge developments with no allowance or provision for infra structure improvements for the transport network.Kew Bridge is a classic example. A plan to widen the bridge and the North side throat while it was possible was rejected because of a small objection on heritage grounds. But a huge panorama damaging development got approved on the whole of the same site! There is just no joined up thinking and this is just the start of it.The

Michael Brandt ● 4653d

I just watched the Route Masters and that does show a bit of conflict between the route controllers and the Centrecom.But all this stuff about 'performance'. How that relates to the fare paying 'customer who is left standing for 80 mins shows that something is wrong wit the way it works.

Oliver Gregan ● 4653d

Yes, about £12,000 a year less!!

Nigel Brooks ● 4653d

I bet they get paid a lot less than tube drivers for a much harder job.

Susan Kelly ● 4653d

Who'd be a bus driver?If you are interested go to BBC iPlayer and take a look at this week's episode of 'The Routemasters'.I had no idea that drivers were so closely monitored, arguably, the most monitored 'blue collar' job in Britain.It may explain some of the delays.

Nigel Brooks ● 4653d

I'm sure Centrecom don't set the rules - the DFT do. http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Staying%20Legal%20-%20PSV%20Driver.pdf

Andrew Mcauley ● 4653d

Buses that are running late are often turned round before they reach their destination to avoid gaps in service in the reverse direction, but this means a reduced service at the end of the route. Who makes the decision to turn them round? Is it TFL? Another route often affected is the 266 towards Hammersmith.

Chris Bell ● 4653d

To be fair the drivers on the 65 are a pleasant lot, But the service seems to get badly delayed.The Brentford High street to Kew road section has had terrible traffic james for several weeks.With a 40% population increase in that area I just wonder how the route will cope or indeed Kew Bridge and that area in general. The ripple effect clearly goes as far as Ealing.Yesterday 3 buses went past Not in Service. Aparently Centrecom ordered the drivers off the road for going over hours. So much for customer service.

Oliver Gregan ● 4653d

The most hated bus route apparently, and fourth most unreliable.A few times I've waited a long time, but normally it's sort of OK.I feel it's a victim of travelling across the radials though if you get what I mean, the A4, Uxbridge Road, the road into Richmond, and having to pass through richmond, ealing and Kingston, and over Kew Bridge, all choked with cars on a regular basis. Much of the route is not along bus lane either.http://www.thelondondailynews.com/route-londons-most-hated-service-p-3622.html

Paul James ● 4653d

I mentioned in a previous thread about how awful the 65 buses were and how you can be waiting for ages before a bus comes and suddenly everyone on the forum started saying what a load of rubbish I was saying and that they thought the 65 buses were excellent. Sometimes I wonder if these people have actually waited for a 65 bus

Asha Smith ● 4653d

Strewth, it would have been quicker to walk.Were there buses going in the opposite direction?

Nigel Brooks ● 4653d