Forum Topic

Automatic progression salaries.

Should some fortunate workers enjoy automatic, annual and guaranteed pay rises? Which professions and jobs still offer these prized automatic and continuing annual pay rises?  Is it fair on others who are not so fortunate?  Or should pay rises depend on merits of the individual and be granted when increased productivity and profits have been achieved and when a job has been well done?

Gerry Tan ● 4661d16 Comments

I think that we have seen a lot of damage to family life and social values. It's a paradox with career opportunities and materialism.Certainly in Ealing we have a lot more very wealthy people than 30 years ago but a far more divided community too.I still do not understand why some move into an area because they like the area and it's make up and then have no participation in it. We have neighbours choosing to keep their children away from the local 'riff raff' driving them to places where they select more 'suitable' children to play with. Avoiding the state schools and not even able to say hello to neighbours or keep an  eye on any elderly neighbours.Always it's 'too busy' and no interest in anyone outside of their selective circle all of which seems rather fickle.Unfortunately most of my university friends have become like this and most have done very well from opportunities that they have worked very hard for.But are they happy? Most are divorced, have big problems with children they have pushed too hard and are obsessed with money and assets, something I think we have all got preoccupied with. And I am no exception although it does bother me.

Michael Brandt ● 4656d

Well Michael, I don't know that I agree with you.  As I understand it, I define "quality" of life as the way and satisfaction we experience in our lives, irrespective of the money cost and "standard" of life is measured by the money cost. There is to my thinking a clear difference between the two.

Gerry Tan ● 4656d

Quality of life is about opportunities Michael nd most of us have had more opportunities for travel, education,social mobility  and a greater access to credit which allows us to buy things we would only dream of buying in the 70's,including dwellings. This does have its down side and there are still some who have been left behind but for most of us it has worked out ok. I doubt any political system would work for everyone all the time.

Keith Iddon ● 4656d

the trouble is that quality of life seems to be measured by what you have in terms of wealth and assets.We are much better off in many ways but much worse off in others

Michael Brandt ● 4656d

Agree with you Kieth, there is a world of difference between "quality" of life and "standard" of life.

Gerry Tan ● 4657d

I largely agree Michael but the 'quality of life' for most people is far higher now,or at least in the last 15 years than it was in the 70's.

Keith Iddon ● 4657d

The trouble is that it is almost like two worlds.On one hand we have the public sector where many have it mapped out and pretty good terms and conditions and unions as well.Then there is the private sector. This has even now a huge disparity among employers.But I know plenty in this area who have not had pay rises for 15 years, have had cuts made to other benefits and are currently expected to work longer hours and when you are told to .In one industry which involves night shifts the rotas are shocking. 40 hours crammed into a raft of shifts that start at 11pm and work to a 6am start over 4 days with less than 10 hours between shifts and no weekends off for 16 weeks and only 2 days off a week one of which is purely to recover.And this id a professional occupation which requires highly skilled staff not some take it or leave it menial job.It is such a shame that unions abused their powers in the 1970s, along with poor management ( which by and large we still have) they set the table for Thatcher and successive government policies which have not made our quality of life and social society any better. At the core is greed and even in a capitalist system, greed is the cancer of it and needs to be kept under tight control.~We all know that's not the case.

Michael Brandt ● 4657d

I remember the Pay Freeze in the 1960's which was part of the Prices and Incomes Policy.  It was a great idea in theory as groups of workers could only get pay rises when a Productivity Agreement had been negotiated between Employers and Unions. One problem was that where a workers group was continually helpful to their employers...they found themselves without any "Spanish Customs " to concede to get a productivity pay rise!Conversely, workers who ruled the roost at their workplace and were as obstructive as could be.. had masses of "bad practice" to trade for more money.Some Groups who had negotiated a productivity increment had to achieve maybe a +10% performance improvement to get a penny. I recall Local Authorities,however, having deals where staff got extra pay for working at half pace..such was the low level norm fiddled by the weak LA's and strong UnionsIn offices, only Civil Servants and others in the Public Sector could get pay rises during the Freeze as they had Non-discretionary incremental pay scales even if they were performing below standard. In the Private Sector no such non-discretary deals were in place..and a worthy employee was denied a rise.The Spanish Customs that carried on in those years destroyed the industrial base in the UK....intensified by strikes galore fueled by dosh from Moscow.

Jim Lawes ● 4657d

I nearly choked on my cornflakes to be reminded of this long running inequality which I had managed to forget about over the decades.

Tony Colliver ● 4659d

Pay grades should only ever be performance related.Good at your job get rewarded, go above and beyond get rewarded more.Coast, Shirk or avoid, no rise.It's how it is for most.

Michael Brandt ● 4660d

The latter based on 80ths and 60ths of pay (some civil service departments had 40ths for a while) and all new employees are now on a defined scheme. I did check for her and she would have been better with a scheme from 'The Pru' but has limited transfer rights.

Nigel Brooks ● 4660d

Does she have a defined salary scheme pension or a final salary one?And if the latter, has Ealing changed to the former for new employees?

George Knox ● 4660d

Currently, most public sector jobs have 'salary ladders'.Pay scales are not at all uncommon in the private sector as well.Most Ealing Council staff are on a scaled pay rate, but the bands are in many cases very narrow.I have a good friend who works in education support, and has done for over twenty years, and she has not had a pay rise since 2005 as she has hit the top of her scale (which actually pays around 80% of what she could achieve in the private sector but she loves her job). She also contributes an increasing percentage to her pension which, although generous, is not radically different from what she could expect in the private sector. She gets, unlike many private sector employees, no other benefits.

Nigel Brooks ● 4661d

Do Ealing Council staff have these benefits. Phil?

George Knox ● 4661d

Nigel, which jobs at the moment offer these automatic pay rise progression?

Gerry Tan ● 4661d

There should be pay scales but progression to the next 'rung' should not be automatic. Scaled pay is common enough but the annual increase in he private sector, and now  more commonly in the public sector, is linked to appraisal and target attainment/ performance.It is difficult, if not impossible, Gerry to link many public sector roles to increased profits but increased productivity and other, less tangible, measures should be an overarching requirement for salary progression in many roles.

Nigel Brooks ● 4661d