Forum Topic

Murder in Woolwich - should the Police be armed?

After seeing the news yesterday about the poot young soldier murdered by extremists perhaps it is time to consider arming more Police Officers?Apparently it took 20 minutes before a Police Response Unit arrived at the scene which does seem an awfully long time!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4696d26 Comments

The one lighter moment in this appalling episode was provided unwittingly - indeed witlessly - by some local geezer there whose broadcasted comment to a BBC radio reporter was:-"Our grandfathers fought for this country and if they was alive today they'd be turning in their graves".Priceless.

Chris Veasey ● 4695d

Although you consider fact based history a bit old-fashioned I'm going to stick with it. Your fiction based history may have the virtue of providing material to feed your prejudices but it serves no useful purpose for any one who genuinely is trying to understand what happened in the past or what is happening today.

Andy Jones ● 4695d

Bring back the death penalty!

David Wright ● 4695d

'The Church was uniformly against an armed struggle..' - er, not so - at least one Catholic priest in Ulster was found (regrettably after his death) to have been actively facilitating terrorism, and there are grounds for suspicion he was by no means alone.

Chris Veasey ● 4695d

Re 'I was alive for a part of it and since then I read some books.', so was I and so have I, but come to a different conclusion from you - but unlike you do I not claim to be the supreme authority, with whose judgement no reasonable or informed person could possibly disagree. As you claim that 'any factual history' supports your view we are entitled to assume you have read every book and learned paper on the subject - have you? And even if you have, mere 'factual' (or supposedly factual) history writing largely (and thankfully) went out with the Victorian era - all worthwhile history writing is interpretative, not merely a pile of 'facts'.One fact is clear however - since 1945, only in the name of those two particular religions or cults has indiscriminate murder been visited on the people of this island - we are entitled to wonder and ask: what is it about those two in particular, of all religions or cults, that seems to have attracted such murderous fanatics?As for your assertion that the Woolwich murderer, if born 3 or 4 decades earlier, would have been carrying out the same barbarism in the name of Marxism in the 1970s, can you remind me and the rest of the forum of any such murders by (real or self-professed) Marxists on this island in that era? -  I certainly don't recall any, only an inoffensive Marxist bludgeoned to death in Southall by Metropolitan Police terrorist fanatics (who got away with it) and a policeman hacked to death in the early 1980s by rioting thugs of no particular political or religious affiliation in a Tottenham housing estate.

Chris Veasey ● 4695d

'The IRA and its' predecessor organisations were 100% Catholic, of this there is no doubt.'I'm afraid there is. Many of the predecessor organisations were founded by Protestants like Wolf Tone. In the early part of the 20th Century some of the most prominent members of the Irish Republican movement were Protestant for instance Erskine Childers and Roger Casement. The IRA was always careful to be non-denominational and did have Protestant members right up to the end of the conflict. The Irish flag is meant to signify peace between the green and the orange i.e. that all religions had a stake in an independent Ireland. The IRA was a nationalist organisation that happened to come from a predominantly Catholic country so its membership was largely from that part of the community but it cannot be said that it was a Catholic organisation following Catholic aims. Many of its senior members were not Catholic for instance Martin McGuinness who was an atheist. The INLA was avowedly anti-clerical and hostile to the Catholic Church. The Church was uniformly against an armed struggle even during the War of Independence and as an institution was indifferent to who had control of Ireland.

Andy Jones ● 4695d

'Are you a professional psychiatrist or a professional historian (specialising in the British Isles in the 20th century) or both - or neither? - in which latter case pray enlighten us as to the grounds for your implied claim to supreme expertise in those intellectual fields.'Neither. I'm not claiming supreme expertise just observing facts.In the former case a diagnosis of mental illness in the case of a man who has just hacked someone to death and then made a rambling contradictory justification of his deed to camera as if he'd parked his car in front of your drive is probably a safe one.In the latter case of the British Isles in the 20th century I was alive for a part of it and since then I read some books. Suggest you do the same.

Andy Jones ● 4695d

Many Muslim organisations have been quick to condemn yesterday's atrocity.

Susan Kelly ● 4695d

I think this may well be the one that pushes them over the edge to come out and make their opposition to this violence a lot clearer...

Tony Colliver ● 4695d

Are you a professional psychiatrist or a professional historian (specialising in the British Isles in the 20th century) or both - or neither? - in which latter case pray enlighten us as to the grounds for your implied claim to supreme expertise in those intellectual fields.

Chris Veasey ● 4695d

The IRA and its' predecessor organisations were 100% Catholic, of this there is no doubt. They were roundly condemned by the majority of Catholics who marched for peace and tolerance. Something that would be welcome to see in the current climate from the mainstream Moslem community.

Nigel Brooks ● 4695d

The video of the man taken after the atrocity in which he rambled on about 'your country' even though he had a London accent left little doubt that he is mentally ill. That a psychopath chooses to attempt to rationalise his violent urges by doing them in the name of a religion doesn't mean he actually understands or properly represents that religion. In the seventies he would have joined an extreme Marxist group and would be been killing people due to the class struggle.Similarly I'm not sure where Chris Veasey gets the idea that Irish terrorism was done in the name of Roman Catholicism. Certainly not from any factual account of the history of the British Isles in the 20th Century.

Andy Jones ● 4695d

Very well said.I have a good friend who is Ethiopian Coptic and his family's church has been routinely attacked by 'fundamentalists' in the name of Islam.I abhor fundamentalists of ANY persuasion and even more their apologists.THIS IS NOT BEING DONE IN THE NAME OF ANY RELIGION IT IS PURE MUDEROUS HATRED!

Nigel Brooks ● 4695d

The mouthy black Nigerian one on the newsclip has now been reported to be a convert to Islam (or his version of it) from a Christian family background.But that apart, your ignorance of Nigeria, Nigerians, and their trad religions, and your ludicrous sterotyping of black Nigerians as not possibly Moslem, is staggering and inexcusable in view of frequent news coverage of serious and murderous tensions between Moslems and Christians (invariably instigated by the Moslems, it seems) in northern Nigeria, much of whose population is Moslem.Nobody is 'picking on' Moslems over this or other incidents - these and other murderous extremists loudly claimed to be carrying out their slaughter in the name of Islam. And the plain fact is that the ONLY religions in  the name of which indiscriminate murder (or attempted murder) has been visited on the people of this island in modern times are Islam and (specifically Irish) Roman Catholicism. No Jew, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Methodist, Wee Free, Plymouth Brother, or any other has done so.And for Moslems or their sympathisers (including apparently your good self) to whine about the inevitable reaction rather than condemning such barbarism in their name (and where possible actively combating it), is to confirm that they are part of the problem.

Chris Veasey ● 4695d

You can still be a Muslim if you're a black Nigerian!  I'm not condoning the blame game but you're point is flawed.  Reports are that they were making Islamic references so the assumption is that they are Muslim (be it extreme or otherwise).

Andy Vaughan ● 4695d

Why is everyone picking on the muslims. I heard on sky news that the suspect was a black nigerian. So why does everyone go on and on about muslim extremists when they were not involved. Seems like easy target to blame them for everything.

Asha Smith ● 4696d

Arming police would not have saved the life of the young soldier.One of the suspects had a gun -- a rusty revolver, apparently, but still a gun. If unarmed police were keeping their distance, then that was very wise of them.

Susan Kelly ● 4696d

These Murderers thugs do not belong to any good Religion. They just use it as an excuse .People do not Protest for fear of being recognised and targeted by mad operatives within the religion. It is the fearful price politicians make us pay in accepting their definitions of diversity and Multiculturalism  without Compatibility being included in the equation. I'm scared . Many will be too.

Os A Whittle ● 4696d

I am sure that someone on the news said that the Police who arrived early were sheltering in the bushes! I do hope this is untrue!How brave of those ladies to actually approach the guys with hand guns and knives, sadly there was nothing they could do to help the poor chap who was attacked.What kind of mindset scauses people to attack an unarmed indivisual going about his business and butchering him on the spot?What kind of religion is this?I do agree it is strange that Muslims are not preotesting loudly about this act of violence carried out in their name.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4696d

@John TotesAgreed - well put!

Bud Richards ● 4696d

It's getting harder not to tar all Muslims with the same brush, when after actions like this there is no outpouring of sympathy from the Muslim community condemning them. The 'Muslim council' alone is not enough.There was plenty of Irish marches for peace, why do I never hear of a Muslim one, maybe there are some and papers don't want to print them, but either way I think Muslims could do more to dispel the bad feeling people have towards them.

John Totes ● 4696d

'The Metropolitan Police says police officers within 9 minutes of the first 999 call and armed officers there within 14 minutes ' source BBC website.

Paul Laverack ● 4696d

I would be in favour of arming the police - gang culture in cities is growing at an alarming rate (and we all know how much these gang members loathe the police) and we also know they're armed, but we send our police out to bat against them with a stick and some cuffs !?! Personally, I'd feel a lot safer, but I appreciate that opinion is split on this.

Bud Richards ● 4696d

Actually I am reassured in a strange way that the nearest armed policeman was 20 minutes away.The action of two perverted individuals should not cloud our judgment.Having worked in the USA, where even shopping mall security guards are armed, I know where I feel safer on the streets and going about my daily life.

Nigel Brooks ● 4696d

Is that 20 mins for armed Police or 20 mins for any Police?Surely PC's with tasers could have apprehended 2 men with knives.Give the police guns and the criminals just arm themselves with more guns.  I hope we don't go that route myself.

Andy Vaughan ● 4696d

No to arming the police.Muslim Paedopile gangs have raped our young girls by the 100s, workers abroad are kidnapped and killed by muslims in the name of allah, bombs on trains in the name of allah, muslims walking the streets of Walthamstow and Whitechapel telling people this is a muslim area, and to act accordingly!Marches from the "moderate" Regents Park mosque calling for the beheading of non-believers, and now this on the streets of Woolwich.But it because of all this you choose not to like muslims and their ways, you'r branded a racist, or an extremist! Just outlaw Islam and all it stands for, if the Jews, Hindus, Sihks etc can live side by side with us in the UK, then the religion that openly wants to change us should not be allowed here.

Leslie Bailey ● 4696d