Forum Topic

My last post about mosque

Who ever deleted my last post about a mosque being built in ealing and my disgust about this, you should be ashamed where is my right to free speech! Disgraceful.

Aaron Shaw ● 4763d289 Comments

If it is hard to judge and if it is hard to form an unbiased opinion, then there is no excuse for being judgmental or being biased, where it ends up being inflammatory or criminal.

George Knox ● 4754d

Sadly it is only atrocities we hear about not the good deeds so it is hard to judge  and form an unbiased opinion.Perhaps those who are moderates should speak up?I know that all the Irish could not be held responsible for the atrocities carried out by the IRA but I am sure that many Irish were treated differently by some during 'The Troubles'

Jean F Fernandez ● 4754d

The Christian religion has a very chequered history on that one Marie, but now is not the time to reopen that festering wound.Once again you make the mistake of tarring all with your one very simple brush.It is simply not true that all Muslims hate.  Period.Nobody on here is for a moment attempting to deny or to apologise for the fact that it is demonstrably the case that the majority of terrorism currently occurring in the world seems to be being justified by the perpetrators on the basis of some distorted interpretation of Islam.But the world will not resolve this problem by turning on the vast majority of good Muslims as if they were all a part of the thing.We must all work together - good Muslims included - to stop this.Shouting and screaming in rage at the wider Muslim community as if they were guilty by mere association can only hinder the eventual resolution of the problem.

Tony Colliver ● 4754d

> Funny tricks being played by someone ...Nope - just dodgy forum software.No need to be paranoid - "they" are not out to get you.:-)

Tony Colliver ● 4754d

As with the bible so to it is with the Koran - you can find a quote to support any line of thought, evil or otherwise, in both of these books.It depends on one's perspective as to whether one reads only the quotes which support evil or only the quotes which support love but one thing is for certain - there is plenty of love in the Koran just as there is in the bible.

Tony Colliver ● 4754d

Re  Funny tricks being played by someone ... Strange !!!              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        have you not sussed it out Marie?

Tony Price ● 4754d

The reason for these blank posts is that when I press '' submit reply'  i get  'error response' every time - the post doesn't go through and I am required to log in each time.  But by sending a blank dummy post I am able to post in the normal way ... Funny tricks being played by someone ... Strange !!!

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Tony you cannot compare churches to mosques. Christian churches preach goodness , peace, charity etc and all things which enrich our lives. through Christian values and morals. Mosques on the other hand are places which preach hatred  of non Muslims, set themselves apart  and indoctrinate young minds as with the two young men in  Boston.

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

All good and righteous sentiments Jaz but unfortunately we are dealing with Muslims who do not follow the Dalai Lama . They are the ones who inflict death, pain and suffering on innocent people in their mission  to dominate  the world using violence and hatred of non-Muslims .

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

But Jaz that's the whole point. The teachings of Islam is based on the hatred of us, the infidels. If they had any love in their hearts how could they go around the world killing  and destroying the lives of totally innocent fellow human beings..... Not much love there.. Today alone there have been four more terrorist attacks In different parts of the world...what's to love ?

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

'Surely you have heard the saying-not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslim.' I have not heard it. Have a read.  http://terrorism.about.com/od/groupsleader1/a/TerroristGroups.htmHere is another article to read. Written by an American. http://lubbockonline.com/interact/blog-post/carol-morgan/2013-04-23/boston-and-repetitive-consequences-irrational-fear-and#.UXbr0bXvtBg The only thing that can conquer hate is love.

Jaz Brown ● 4755d

Tom I genuinely appreciate and accept your efforts in trying to compromise and reach a common ground in all of this. The fact that even as we are both writing these posts,there have been several more terrorist activities in various parts of the world today which exacerbates the situation even more. I am accused of hatred, which is not the case but yes I hate the actions of a group of people who commit these horrendous atrocities. Yes, I do hold the view that these people are intent on taking over not just our country but the world...their stated mission is that Islam will rule the world and their attempts are borne out by their activities. It is foolhardy to minimize the situation by assuming that the perpetrators are 'only' a small minority but ALL muslims live by shariah and the Koran so all are committed to those teachings. Remember it only took one nineteen year old teenager to reek devastating havoc and misery in Boston and brought the entire city to lock down. Surely you have heard the saying-not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslim. Do you not worry about their activities? It terrifies me that we should have these people amongst us. There is enough evidence that they are dangerous and are indoctrinating the next generation to follow them as with the two young men in Boston who were radicalized. Abu Qatada and Abu Hamsa are very local figures both of whom are criminals, did not belong here and preached hatred so who are the haters here...not me. It's usual that anyone who dares to make a negative comment is automatically labeled as a hater or racist..I am a realist. It's the sheer complacency and tolerance which is so concerning and folks just seem to turn a blind eye or maybe they just don't have the courage to take a stand. For my part I state my case because I fear for the future of life in this country for my children and grandchildren. Also as my friend died in 9/11 and have many family members in Boston I also have a personal perspective. For the past month I have had way too much time on my hands following hip replacement surgery so spending too much time on the computer. However, I will soon step off my soap box and return to work when I will be far too busy to be wittering on the forum. It has been interesting and enlightening and in general I remain steadfast in my convictions. Again thankyou for taking the trouble to return and I will leave it to others to carry the banner !! Bye.

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Oh Marie please...I know I said I`d step out of this but I`ve been reading from afar. But I`d like to have one last attempt at getting you to see what people are saying. So no messing, no insults, please just read this and tell me what you think:Your view, which you are totally entitled to is that all Muslims are would-be suicide bombers intent on taking over our country for their own purposes. If this is not your view please let me know as this is whats coming accross.That said, you seem to only be able to accept that everyone else either shares your hatred of all Muslims (ALL), or if not then we must be supporters of 9/11, London and Boston bombings. There is no middle ground with you.So if, as I do, one shares your view that these attrocities are horrible and a real problem for our us, but do npt want to label all (ALL) muslims as terrorists then you seem unable to compute this.I have been accused on this forum for justifying the London bombing which I was as appalled at as much as anyone. But as I don`t share your view that this means all muslims are like this, then I must be a supporter. Is that what you mean?Please stop telling people to open their eyes to what is happening. We all watch the new, we all read the papers. We are all worried by these acts of terrorism against our way of life, be it perpetrated by muslims or not.I hope this helps you understandTom

Tom Clifford ● 4755d

"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion, and elimination of ignorance, selfishness, and greed."Dalai Lama"This is the way of peace: overcome evil with good, and falsehood with truth, and hatred with love."Peace Pilgrim

Jaz Brown ● 4755d

Maria, I find it unbelievable that you seem blind to the atrocities - even while I write this there are more reports of terrorism in various parts of the world  It's not a case of hatred, just being realistic and not having airy fairy idealistic notions of being 'good neighbours'.These people don't want to integrate or behave like 'good samaritans'. Their stated mission is to take over the world and regardless of their status of moderation, they ALL follow shariah which is not acceptable here. I will waste no more time with you as in your case, there's none so blind as those who will not see but just want to stick labels on those who do not agree with you.

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Ignorance is bliss - be happy in your ignorance of reality

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Re  let a mob burn a man to death...?       xxxxxxxxxxxxx      that was wicked but also the scene where one  man was trying to escape and was followed  and beaten  with clubs to the ground, where he was still being beaten until another came along with a machete and after that, no more was shown as too gruesome , the Newscaster said, but it was obvious the head was chopped of, and maybe displayed?.

Tony Price ● 4755d

I find it hard to believe that someone so full of hate would really perform acts of kindness everyday. Every Muslim I have ever known has been kind, polite and respectful. As neighbours they are easy to love. I would be surprised and upset if they hated me because of evil acts committed by other Christians so I am not going to hate them because of evil acts committed by other Muslims. The choice between your message and Christ's is an easy one for me.

Maria Plunkett ● 4755d

I can tell you that every day of my life I do something along the lines of the 'good samaritan' for people of every  nationality and faith in many different ways yet to date, not one has turned around and thanked me by killing, destroying and mutilating me or those around me in the way that Muslims behave. You seriously need to take off those rose tinted glasses and see what is happening. Just this morning 3 more Islamic attempts to kill more innocent people..don't you get the message ?

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

There are plenty of happy Muslims out there.One in particular of my acquaintance is a Muslim woman in Redditch who came to this country with nothing (including no education) as a child of 14 and in just six years or so (after the best part of 20 years in poverty in the UK) has now elevated herself to a position of such wealth and respect that she spends a substantial part of each day looking for opportunities to dish out random acts of kindness to strangers.She is an observant Muslim and dresses modestly when outside the house.  The ones in burkas are very much a minority.  Even more "Muslims" are actually no more observant than the typical English person is in respect of Christianity.It is a tiny minority that causes all the murder and mayhem.The bulk of "Muslims" are as open to communicating with you as you are with them - but they are cautious at first because many of them have had bad experiences.I can't see this Sharia Law thing in East London gaining too much traction in the long run.  It is abhorrent and will not be allowed to continue IMHO.I really don't like all these mosques being built personally, but then I really don't like any large religious symbols being erected - and that goes for all the churches that got put up in the past as well.With respect to communicating with each other in their mother tongue - how do you thing English-speaking people behave when they are abroad?  I have friends who have lived in France for over 20 years now and they still speak in English within their own home (and, despite not being language luddites at all) find it difficult even now to keep up with the French indigs when the banter starts to fly at dinner parties.  It is normal.

Tony Colliver ● 4755d

Totally abhorrent...but I also watched the burning of the twin towers where 3000 people burned. These are evil people...

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Your interpretation of who is your neighbour or not is different from that of Jesus. In the parable of the Good Samaritan he makes it totally clear that your neighbour does not have to be of your tribe. An acceptance of this is fundamental to being a Christian.

Maria Plunkett ● 4755d

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Re  What makes them hate everyone so much?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    That is what they are told in the Koran, to kill infidels , especially Jews. Other  than that it is a question of submission to them in their countries,  by a tax being levelled on non Muslims. Whether that is still  required to be paid nowadays  in Muslim countries I do not know. Btw, Christians in Egypt are being persecuted, churches  destroyed etc BUT Christianity was THE religion of that country and the Muslim  came and took over. As I have said, the UN turns a blind eye to the  murdering, raping, kidnapping of Christian girls, burning of churches etc in Muslim lands and does sod all about it, neither does any representative of a Western country stand up and demand action. WHY is everyone so scared of Muslims. Should we take action in this country before we are taken over more than we are now. I cannot understand the obeisance to all things  Muslim that our leaders and even petty officials make to Muslims and their ways etc. Why should we do away  with Christmas, and all other signs and trappings of our  culture and customs, just to please or not upset immigrants. For example, a few years ago the British Red Cross ordered all their shops not to display anything to do with Christianity, Christmas cards etc etc. I wrote and asked the CEO why, answer was  as the B R C operates in Muslim countries, they do not want to upset them!. So because Muslims in their own countries might  get upset re B R C showing ANYTHING to do with OUR national religion and customs etc in our own country, the B R C ordered the dismissal of all things Christian. After an a wider uproar in the UK over that, the  B R C rescinded but  the damage was done as far as I was concerned and have refused to support them since.          Excellent post btw, Jean. Basic commonsense, not too well received by some, sadly.

Tony Price ● 4755d

Do you really stand by and let a mob burn a man to death...?

Tony Colliver ● 4755d

A form of 'vitriol-bot' perhaps? :-)

Tony Colliver ● 4755d

Do you know what - the great thing about the bible (and, AFAICT, most other holy books as well) is that there is a quote in there to support *ANYTHING*.It can be, and frequently has been, used to support all manner of horrors visited upon their fellow men by so-called "believers".

Tony Colliver ● 4755d

Tony,You mentioned that moderate Muslims are genuinely frightened of these thugs but they are also frightened by the indigs since they have not been universally welcomed to date so have learned to keep themselves to themselves to avoid drawing attention.How can one communicate with a person covered from head to foot in a burka, some with just their eyes peeping out from under the veil?One can hear these people just communicating with one another in their own tongue without making any effort to integrate.Can they blame the indiginous population for being wary when such a lot of what they do is alien to us? We cannot understand why some Muslims hate us with such vengence.How can these people repay a country which welcomed them with open arms (well the government of the day did) and how can one blame the indigs for being very worried about the men in beards and strange attire who do not look one in the eye?Their ways are so different from ours, for instance I was watching Panorama last night. This programme was about Sharia Law which is widely practiced in this country. Muslims wishing to divorce and so on. Muslims do not recognise British Law, or marry according to the law of the land. They prefer to marry according to their own tradition. Therefore when the marriage breaks down they go to a Sharia Law Centre in Leyton, East London hoping for a fair hearing.There they are advised NOT to go to the Police at any cost even if they are being badly beaten by their husband! It would seem that Muslim women are treated very unfairly in this respect and sometimes end up with nothing after they finally do get a divorce. Sometimes this process takes many years.So it is understandable that the whole situation regarding Muslims seems so strange to us but if they fail to integrate with their neighbours and set up no-go areas where they say Sharia Law prevails, how are the indigs expected to behave? Are to supposed to accept this ruling that certain areas of this country are no-go areas, Muslim territory if you like? They put signs on lamp posts to say that drinking and so on is not allowed in their area and refer to Sharia Law.Can you imagine someone from his country trying to do something like this in a Muslim country?  You wouldn't last 5 minutes I can assure you.Our leaders have been so accommodating to Muslims and their religion allowing the building of Mosques in every neighbourhood. Again I ask, would Christians be permitted to build lots of churches in Muslim countries?  You think so??? Why are they so intolerant to others? In each and every country where terrorists are involved it is almost always Muslims behind that atrocity.What are they trying to achieve? What is their goal? Surely their actions wouod not make people embrace that religion?  What makes them hate everyone so much?Are there ANY happy Muslims out there?

Jean F Fernandez ● 4755d

Yes just heard of another incident today where Muslims were caught trying to blow up train in Canada. As with the Buddhists at what point is enough enough ?

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Ms. Plunkett, just your opinion not fact. As with statistics, Bible quotations can be used to prove anything especially when they are taken totally out of context. eg. it's a good thing that we don't treat Muslims as they treat us..but maybe 'what goes around, will come around and justice may eventually be served. Are you immuned from accepting what is happening to innocent people ? Obviously you would rather defend the perpetrators..

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Ms. Plunkett, just your opinion, not fact. As with statistics, Bible quotations can be used to prove anything especially when they are used totally out of context.eg.it's a good thing that we don't treat Muslims as they treat us, fact.

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Re  Just heard of another incident in Spain !!          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  I think you will find there have been almost 2000 terrorist incidents world wide  by Muslims since 9/11.  Given time, I will try to find the info.

Tony Price ● 4755d

Re  `Love your neighbor as yourself        xxxxxxxxxxxxxx firstly I think bringing religion into this  is going to open up a hornet's nest. However, re the neighbour bit, the question WHO is your neighbour. In many cases now  they are persons  who are  not of  the " tribe " and tribal cohesion and identity is the mainstay  of and centre of everything to do with a nationstate. And that is where we have been led astray and up the swaneey ( with our paddles taken away from us )

Tony Price ● 4755d

You are not familiar with the Bible. You have failed to understand its central and most important message.

Maria Plunkett ● 4755d

Tony, thought the same about Buddhist...but perhaps they have had enough of them....which could be a huge concern if the Western world gets riled up enough as well with such terrible atrocities perpetrated by terrorists. Just heard of another incident in Spain !! What's next..yet still people on this forum still don't get it and witter on about 'loving thy neighbor' and being a 'good samaritan' !!

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Re    setting fire to a man in a street recently whilst the police looked on.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yes, I also thought Buddhists were extremely  docile but seemingly they can get fired up. As to the police standing by, I think that was because they were hopelessly outnumbered by a large and raging mob.

Tony Price ● 4755d

Totally off tangent. I am very familiar with the Bible. When Jesus talks about "love thy neighbor as thyself" I don't think it means that when my neighbor terrorizes me and plots to kill and maimes innocent people that I should do the same to him in return. You are twisting and misinterpreting  passages to understate the terrible acts of people who have no interest in being neighborly...we do not treat them in the same way as they treat us...maybe we should take the action of 'an eye for an eye but we do not because we are being 'good samaritans' !!

Marie OConnell ● 4755d

Strange !!

Marie OConnell ● 4756d

Strange !!

Marie OConnell ● 4756d

OK ---I get it now!!  Marie isn't real- it's a form of editorial license used by various commercial entities as a wind up resulting in increased activity for the home pages.

Charles Campbell ● 4756d

You don't make it clear which god you follow but from what you say it is clearly not the Christian God of the Bible.Jesus is absolutely unambiguous in his guidance on these matters and there is no way that what he says can be interpreted in any other way that he would expect us to be tolerant and understanding of minorities in our midst. In fact he puts this principle right at the centre of his teaching and if you don't believe it you cannot in any way claim to be a Christian.In Matthew 22:36-40 it says,  "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."Just in case this is not clear he give us the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were a distrusted and despised ethnic minority in the Holy Land in the time of Jesus on earth. There is no room for argument that he is telling us that we should treat people as individuals and not groups who we collectively regard ourselves as better than.The sad fact is that these most important teachings of Jesus have often been disregarded. The Samaritans themselves were ultimately wiped out by ethnic cleansing and the doctrines of people like Marie O'Connell continue be spouted by people who in ignorance call themselves Christians.

Maria Plunkett ● 4756d

It's a crazy world we live in. When God made the world he put many groups of people in various parts of the world each with their  own language religion culture,  customs, dress, food etc  and he gave them the skin which was suited to the climate. - black in very hot countries so they wouldn't burn in the sun, brown where it is a bit cooler and white in weather like ours. People are happy in their own groups mongst their own kind, all peaceful and natural. Then someone came up with idea of interfering with nature and God's plan . They thiought. It would be a good idea to change the  dynamics and mix people up outside their established areas . It was done in the name of. ' diversity '  and everyone wa supposed  to be the same and get on harmoniously . Well , it was not a good idea  - and naturally people strived to live their own way of life in theses strange lands and it all went wrong which is why there is so much conflict in the world today.  If something isn't natural, it isn't right. Now we have Muslims living in the west where they  expect to be accommodated to live their lifestyle and have been made welcome yet they outwardly hate us and want to take us over . They should revert to God's original plan and go back to where he put them in the first place since they dislike  his western world so much. Maybe then they wouldn't feel the need to terrorise, kill and maime people who are not of their kind and don't want to be dominated by them . The conflict will not stop while they continue to  defy nature  so the message is for them as well as any other misplaced group to go back to their original land where they had put down their roots .

Marie OConnell ● 4756d

"Perhaps those who are against violence are afraid of fellow Muslims so they keep quiet?"Yep, that's correct.I know a number of moderate Muslims in the Birmingham area and they refer to "the guys with the scary beards" - who it is clear one does not mess with."In Belfast during the troubles people would come out in the streets with banners saying 'NOT IN OUR NAME' and demanding PEACE"I don't doubt you for a moment, but you know, in all the tens of years that conflict was going on I was never once personally aware that that was happening.My point being that if the mainstream news doesn't routinely carry it then it is surprising how much one can remain in ignorance of.Perhaps Muslims are protesting but we just never see it.Every one of the Muslims that I know doesn't agree with what the "guys with scary beards" are getting up to but I also understand why they would not grandstand that - just the same as typical indigs wouldn't rush out to man the barriers at the drop of a hat either. Yes, they are genuinely frightened of these thugs, but they are also frightened of the indigs since they have not been universally welcomed to date so have learnt to keep themselves to themselves to avoid drawing attention.Interesting that the boot is on the other foot in Burma - the Buddhists including some monks - who I always assumed to be the very epitome of peace on the planet - are waging a vicious campaign against the Muslims - to include setting fire to a man in a street recently whilst the police looked on.

Tony Colliver ● 4756d

Moderate Muslims, if they exist, seem awfully quiet on the topic of terrorist activities carried out by those who share their faith.Why are they not protesting loudly when atrocities happen in the name of Islam?They say Islam is a religion of PEACE but people are judged by their actions!Perhaps those who are against violence are afraid of fellow Muslims so they keep quiet?It would be very interesting to find an answer.In Belfast during the troubles people would come out in the streets with banners saying 'NOT IN OUR NAME' and demanding PEACEStrange that Muslims are silent on this subject.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4756d

Re  'every year there is always a notable absence of non-white participants'          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I am sorry, but if that is a statement of fact, which it presumably is, how can  you turn it into a charge of racism. Why are you obsessed with racism and  accusing others of it. If a fact is a fact, end of.It is not racist, but FACT. Why are you so  frightened of facts. If  the topic was about squirrels, and someone said there were no red ones, you presumably would say the writer was racist. See the point?.

Tony Price ● 4756d

No not hatred of people but of their activities ie killing and maiming of innocent people and the hatred lies with Muslims who live here in freedom yet hate US. eg Abu Qatada and many more. Perhaps you don't follow the news reports or at least aren't bothered about the attrocities . As it happens, my friend died in  9/11 also I have family in Cambridge Boston so why would anyone have any sympathy for them when every day  there is a threat of more death and destruction. As for the marathon, I made a constructive observation. BTW terrorists have been Englsh born and bred yet they go abroad to train how to come back and kill us .... What's to like !!!

Marie OConnell ● 4756d

Where does your hate come from Marie, real hate. Every comment that you make is full of hate. And your claim to be not racist, makes me laugh. 'every year there is always a notable absence of non-white participants'. You go from hating Muslims to hating all non-whites. Muslims can be white too. And there are generations of non-white people who are English born and bred. Really, were you watching the Marathon yesterday, thinking look there's hardly any non-whites, is your whole life about how much you hate.

Jaz Brown ● 4756d

I cannot understand why western countries and governments are so scared and tolerant of these people. All western countries should clamp down and even ban these people from entering the west since they clearly and openly hate everything non-muslim so why have them here. Unless immediate and strict action is taken, 9/11,7/7,shoe bomber, Boston etc will become commonplace events and they will get a stronghold on the world. The next generation of Muslims could be even worse with their education, internet access, IT, ease of communication etc. complacency and tolerance is dangerous and will jeopordise any kind of future life as we know it. We owe it to our children and grandchildren to eradicate this evil element so as to give them a safe environment without terrorism.

Marie OConnell ● 4756d

Marie OConnell ● 4756d

Re  Doesn't bear thinking about !!        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  and it is not only in the UK. Happens in Holland, Belgium Paris where Police dare not stop mass  praying in the streets which are  thus banned for normal use, Scandinavia,and no-go zones for infidels in their own countries. No other ethnicity as far as I am aware have ever done this and on such a w/wide area. I think Canada has similar problems, Americans have a bit more guts. While in Muslim countries  Christians are being murdered , raped, burned, driven out and generally suppressed, while the UN does b.gg.r about it.

Tony Price ● 4756d

What about Muslims putting up posters in parts of London declaring the areas to be shariah zones with no alcohol etc etc..also an MP attended a gathering in a mosque and was asked what was he doing in a Muslim part of London. Unless the government stamps out this kind of domination  things can only get worse .... Doesn't bear thinking about !!

Marie OConnell ● 4757d

Today and every year I watched the London marathon which is based entirely on charity. It didn't take much observation to  note  that with the thousands of runners  every year there is always a notable absence of non-white participants apart from the front runner professionals. I' m sure there may have been some but I certainly didn't see any others .. By the way did you ever count the contents of  the little envelopes ?

Marie OConnell ● 4757d

In reference to "ethnics" not being well-known for "charity", I would like to ask the author of those words on what evidence she has based this assertion? For it directly contradicts my years of experience of being a door- to-door charity collector, leaving little envelopes and coming back for them later. This was in the days before chugging for direct debits.I invariably found that the not inconsiderable number of doors rudely slammed in my face were those of what I believe this forum is calling indiginees, and that the so-called ethnics were almost unfailingly friendly and generous.Every man has a right to his bigotry and prejudices, but does not have the right to assert those prejudices to be anything other than just that, prejudices. Facts are another matter altogether and those are conspicuous by their absence in the large proportion of responses on this thread.  Sad.

Judy Jaafar ● 4757d

Re    That’s a problem created for themselves not by us.           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx It might be created BY them but for us.  No tolerance for others  effects us  I would say and not them as those in various levels of authority here make sure we are the ones to suffer in any conflict or dispute where Muslims are concerned. Why this is I don't know but that attitude is not limited to this country, but widespead  throughout the EU. Fear of revenge as has happened so many times, especially where the religion itself is involved.

Tony Price ● 4757d

Tom there are far more than just a 'few'and as ALL Muslims follow shariah they are undesirable. In any event there are enough in a 'few' to cause untold death and destruction. To quote a well used saying..not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are muslim these are not labels but proven acts of inhumanity. The way people are killed and maimed for no reason implies the total lack of humanity. There is no unfounded hatred in the media, it's that the media are reporting facts. The last thing Muslims want is to integrate with us 'kafirs' whom they hate.

Marie OConnell ● 4757d

So if you can’t use proper grammar don’t bother posting? This is why there are more readers on this forum than contributors as they are probably afraid of being ridiculed for their secondary modern education. Everybody s entitled to their opinion no matter how they spell, misspell or their use of grammar.  If people want to RANT on this topic that’s fine it’s no worse than ranting about Morrison’s being crap or how McDonalds and TKMaxx shouldn’t be made larger it’s an opinion and if you are too thin skinned to see this maybe you should leaveI admit  don’t have any Muslim friends and I don’t think this makes me a bad person but what I see on the news and read in the papers leaves me with a feeling of unease and mistrust of most Muslims. Also an Australian friends son was verbally attacked on face book by two Muslim friends of his because he posted a photo of his girlfriend wearing a headscarf given to her by a Muslim colleague, and saying she was being disrespectful to their religion and calling her a bitch. It seems to me that Muslims have no tolerance to others outside of their own beliefs. That’s a problem created for themselves not by us.

Tony Maxey ● 4757d

Re  something ethnics are not well known for...      xxxxxxxxxxx    apart from possibly one. I can remember reading some good time ago when I was seriously thinking of adopting  Judaism, I think it was the R A F who said in their attempts to collect, the Jewish communities were among the most generous.

Tony Price ● 4757d

Don't know if there is a glimmer of hope that perhaps what we have been saying is actually being recognized....maybe I am being naïve but we can now speak out more openly and there are some miniscule signs that we are being listened to...only time will tell. However it's probably too late to have our towns reverted back to how they were. BTW watching the London marathon, and apart from the front professional runners, there is little sign of ethnic representation in the main throng of runners who are running for charity...something ethnics are not well known for...

Marie OConnell ● 4757d

Re  hour but on sick leave following hip surgery        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  firstly let's hope that all goes well and with full recovery. Your posting set out the situation fairly and squarely. I cannot believe the changes that has been foisted on this country in the last decade or so, and without so much as a by your leave, in fact the exact opposite, by Govt. decree almost, do it, don't tell anyone, except a pack of lies. The situation now is those enticed into this country can determine who governs as the numbers gap between the main parties is not very great so a small  swing  can decide the outcome. Whoever  panders to elements of the "  fringe " stands a better chance of getting in, hence maybe why the courting or non challenging of the now largest  alien members of society, those who are the main discussion of this thread.  Their numbers range in estimates from 3 to 5 million, a powerful lobby. Maybe explains why Christmas has gone off the radar and halal meat  clandestinely shoved down the throats of we infidels, without our  being told and certainly not asked. It will all end in tears.

Tony Price ● 4757d

Tony, can't believe i'm on here at this hour but on sick leave following hip surgery so having way too much free time!!!  Yes, we were supposed to welcome all these colourful people from other lands, build this nice rainbow society and all get on together and enjoy diversity. Boy, it didn't work out that way. We did welcome them, made all kinds of allowances for them, gave them interpreters, all literature in dozens of languages, companies had to employ quotas of ethnics sometimes instead of indigs.etc etc. They( not us) didn't want to integrate since they had nothing in common with us so they set up their own communities and established whole areas which they proceeded to take over. Eventually indigs caught on to them but the slightest criticism  met with charges of racism and woe betide. anyone who dared to  'offend' them. But now we the people have had enough and at least we have some semblance of free speech  and the government have recognised what we have been saying all along... that diversity does not work ........question is what are they going to do .... not a lot.

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Re  just set up their own communities...           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and ain't that just racist, prefering their own. We are not allowed to do that so why should they. And they bring the  joys of diversity, as London so much enjoys these days. We even have an organisation specially set up to recognise it, called Trident.

Tony Price ● 4758d

Ree to Africa ......  go to get treatment/benefits and so on.            xxxxxxxxxxxxx apparently the situation was, and may well still be, that if the breadwinner of a family abroad  could get here, they could claim support benefits for all their dependents back home. Someone  " in the know " said we keep whole villages in Africa that way. How this country survives  baffles me ( maybe we don't ? )

Tony Price ● 4758d

Re  we don't get a look in .          xxxxxxxxxxxxx  as I have said so many times, we won't when we are even less in number to the whole than we have become at this point in time  and when we are no longer in control of various organisations, especially the Local Authorities. One need only look at Southall to see what has and is happening there. I can remember many years ago when those there wanted to change the names of the roads to those more akin to the sub continent. It was stopped because we had an " indigenous "  Mayor. Give it a few more years and we won't recognise whole swaythes of Ealing and London in general.

Tony Price ● 4758d

Yes I once read an article with pictures somewhere in Africa where there  was a teacher  taking a class teaching them how to claim benefits when they arrive in the UK. Considering that this country is not conducive to the climate, weather, culture, dress, language, religion . etc. to most immigrants, the only reason they come is for the free handouts ... They don't even want to integrate and just set up their own communities... This is such a stupid country for sure...

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

I mentioned quite some time ago about a person who works in the NHS chasing those who fail to pay for their treatment before leaving these shores.Well this NHS worker went on a trip to Africa and was most surprised to see a notice in a mud hut giving instructions on where one should go to get treatment/benefits and so on.The news of our generous nature has obviously spread far and wide.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4758d

They come from  corrupt cultures and are way more expert on all aspects of  fraud,  and how to get around every possible benefit than  most of the  indigs. Even those who  don't  speak English  know every  benefit to claim for. I once read that even before they arrive many immigrants are given lessons on how to claim benefits.......me... I wouldn't  know where to start.  !!  It is so sad that our country is riddled with so many undesirables and the government does nothing. Between the immigrants and the Muslims we don't get a look in .

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Re  costs us a fortune keeping       xxxxxxxxxxxxx I think you will find he was and his family still are on welfare benefits of various sorts, everyone possible I expect. They are bound to have professional advisers how to claim the max possible. We are such a generous peoples! Allah will surely smile down upon us.

Tony Price ● 4758d

Yes and at the same time costs us a fortune keeping and protecting him...beggars belief.

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Re  he must have had a criminal record      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx he did, for terrorism, that's why the Jordanians want him back,  but a person running from justice is just who we want, and need. And you know as well as I do, why we can't get rid of him.  We protect  the guilty and open up we innocents to danger.

Tony Price ● 4758d

Exactly, but if he was kicked out it would send a message to others. It is only the tip of the iceberg but we are handcuffed by the EU,PC's, human rights etc. yet there is no regard for our human right not to have Muslims in our midst who kill, maime, and hate us. If Qatada is being protected from torture in Jordan, he must have had a criminal record there so how did he get into this country ? The younger new generation of Muslims will be even more dangerous since they have so much more education, access to the internet and IT.hat a crazy country we live in !!!

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Re  kick out people like Qatada and his ilk            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx that's all very well, we KNOW about him etc, but what about the ones who we don't know about so far. The number of those of the " Religion of Peace " in this country varies as to who is supplying the figures and their purpose but M C B say 3 million, 1.5+ million in London. If 0.1 % are potentially radicalisable, we have 3000 potentials, and if only 0.001%, then 300. Only 3 or 4 can do a helluva lot of  killing, maiming and damage. We are sitting on a time " bomb". And it will happen one day, what then?. Will all the sycophants, apologists and PC walleys say sorry. I doubt it somehow. We need  the bulk of and good members of that society in our midst to actively work with us  and not be like the elder on TV the other day from a mosque in Luton, not our business he said. In that case, in my book, neither is he ours, so he should leave to where such attitude is more acceptable. Maybe back to whence he came, and the other elders of that mosque with him?.

Tony Price ● 4758d

Re  witnessed Romanian women lifting up skirts and using the pavement as a toilet. Some Romanians have been caught pick-pocketing in the West End.             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx firstly, have a water cannon lorry nearby, should cleanse more than the streets.  secondly, the pickpockets can't be sent back because  they would be then deprived of their living, be reasonable Jean, they have their rights, you know!.

Tony Price ● 4758d

You are so right Jean and between immigration, muslims and a useless government the future of this country looks very bleak indeed. We are handcuffed by the EU and can't even process our own laws. It is very worrying for the future of young people trying to make a success of their lives. Fortunately my son emigrated to the USA but I still have young relatives here. If only immigration could be halted and kick out people like Qatada and his ilk. We will have to tell the country what we want at the ballot box..

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

As long as our Government kow-tows to Europe and lives by their rules then immigration will NEVER be controlled. Border Control is useless, figures are distorted (on purpose?) and the backlog to remove those who should not be here would apparently take up to 24 years to complete.Border Control also hides files or they are moved to somewhere else and renamed to hide the true figure.Other countries in the EU can kick out undesirables but we live by the rules!Heaven knows what will happen in January 2014 when once more people from Romania and Bulgaria will be welcomed here by the Government (but not necessarily by all members of the long suffering population).I see that 60 or 70 Romanians have set up camp in Park Lame!!! Visitors passing by on tour busses have witnessed Romanian women lifting up skirts and using the pavement as a toilet. Some Romanians have been caught pick-pocketing in the West End. Their Human Rights must be protected apparently - but what about OUR Human Rights???I wouldn't be surprised that these people will shortly be given homes and benefits!Why don't the Police simply remove them? The PC brigade seem to have won!  What sort of reputation will this country have when the tourists return home!The world has gone mad!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4758d

Tom,If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. Yes I suppose going for a pint would be more important to you that following the " Boston thing " Nothing twisted, just facts. Yes angry that these people kill and  maime innocent citizens for which they should be everybody's enemy. So you think being angry about these types of atrocities is merely a case of bitching and moaning...far more serious than being a pet hate. There is only one group who harbor hatred. BTW I have had no warnings. Go forth and go around with your eyes and ears shut and ignore the TV reports.

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

At least in the US they can't hide behind the PC and Human rights and the authorities have the power and will to deal with them appropriately. People come here with supposed asylum and refugee status them exploit our hospitality, freedom, education tolerance and benefits given to them then turn on us in the name of Islam. wHY IS THIS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE.

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

No she has just won her claim that she knew nothing. The big mystery to me is why there is so much tolerance of these people who hate so much ? It can only get worse as demonstrated by the Boston events with such young people being drawn into the evil of Islam. What to do ??? It's time to take action..for too long they have been able to live amongst us with protection and tolerance...

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Re  ..always protecting their own.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx in other words, we have a giant 5th column in our midst, none of whom can we get rid of because of THEIR  human rights, or even criticise because of racism tag. What a bluddy mess. Who got us into it, and who keeps us in it?.

Tony Price ● 4758d

Hi GerryThanks for that. Not leaving the forum, just this thread. I learn a lot from this forum, there are some very knowledgeable people on here. I never try to pretend that I have know better than anyone else, but I think I can differentiate between a discussion and an angry rant. Perhaps I shouldn`t allow people to get me so wound up, it upsets me a little that some people aren`t capable of applying common sense. God gave us all a brain, lets use it.. :O)

Tom Clifford ● 4758d

Yes, which is why I advised Tom to go to specsavers. So ironic that all this happened right in the middle of the debate on this forum. Do you think people here will ever wake up to what is really going on ?

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Re Hope our marathon goes off without incident.....        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx indeed yes, has there been any reason given  why they bombed  the Boston one, or just a desire to maim and kill  infidels. My mind cannot conceive how these people's minds work. If you don't like someone, leave and go elsewhere and how do they think blowing up  others advances their cause. All in the name of their God. Amazing. And those who know or suspect and say nothing are almost as guilty, like the wife of one of the London bombers who knew and did not say anything. Was she not convicted?

Tony Price ● 4758d

Like the 4 Luton gang here they would never report them anyway..always protecting their own.

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Tom, please don't exit this EalingToday forum. I enjoy reading your posts, 'cos they're well argued, reasoned and you use such good English with proper grammar - unlike a few I could name but won't. Please don't leave.

Gerry Tan ● 4758d

Re  Nice people to have In our society                   xxxxxxxxxxxxxx I wonder if they attended their local mosque and who could have spotted something?

Tony Price ● 4758d

Re  Auntie thinks the 2 terrorists are angels!            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Goodness knows what their devils are like, then!. My father used to say " there's none so blind as them that won't see !.

Tony Price ● 4758d

Er, sorry Marie, I was at work, then I went to the pub. Felt it was a better use of my time than arguing with crazy...It never ceases to amaze me how people can twist and turn things to their advantage. So far my statement about there being a extreme element to most religions somehow turned into me defending the London bombings. And now I seem to have suggested that the Boston bombing were trivial. I better be careful or I might end up accidentally offering to buy you all dinner. Oh and please don`t read that as me offering to buy you all dinner. I can see how it could be confusing.As for you Marie - I feel you take comfort in the fact you have found a common enemy and have found an outlet for your anger. I realise now there is a difference between users of this forum or just seek to bitch, whinge and moan about their pet hate, and those who are interested in debating the issue.You were warned earlier that your petty insults did nothing to credit you, your blank posts look like the equivalent of throwing a strop, and suggestions that someone has removed one of your posts indicates you do not know how to use this forum properly.I am leaving this thread now because we`re just  going round in circles Get your last post in now and that means you win.

Tom Clifford ● 4758d

Two fine young men who have been radicalized  by this evil element living amongst us Kind of feel sorry for their family who seem devastated and genuinely shocked. The worst image is that of the eight year old boy standing at the barrier whilst his killer lurks in the background ready to kill him. Amazing job done by those involved in the capture. Hope our marathon goes off without incident.....

Marie OConnell ● 4758d

Well Tom, deafening silence from you ! So what do you think of the "Boston thing'"now??      TOLD YOU SO    and just in case you didn't bother to follow the news. -  they are Muslims .... Backs up everything I said  !!!!! yes they kill and maime people for their cause... Nice people to have In our society and the likes of you defend them. ...get with the programme.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Maybe they are trying to protect their own family !!

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Even the Auntie thinks the 2 terrorists are angels!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4759d

The truth hurts their eyes !!

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Re  The 2 suspects are originally from Cechnia               xxxxxxxxxxx        " Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Was 'Beautiful Boy', Friend Says, And Father Calls Boston Bombing Suspect 'True Angel'".     Just shows what radicalisation does, so who does that and where?.

Tony Price ● 4759d

Re  The 2 suspects are originally from Cechnia           cccccccccccccccccccp    I put a post on 30 mins or so ago  confirming they are Muslims but the post seems to have been removed?. The info came from America.

Tony Price ● 4759d

The 2 suspects are originally from Cechnia (Sp) and have been in USA for 10 years according to Sky News.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4759d

Re  After all is it at the mosques that intimidation and teaching of hatred of non-muslims takes place.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx          and on a w/wide basis, so it seems:-        Mayhem in Boston: Muslim bomber dead, brother on loose  A profile of the two suspects in the Boston Marathon bombing is beginning to emerge from their own blog postings made prior to the deadly attack last week.

Tony Price ● 4759d

Re  what would the mosque personnel  feel, nothing or guilty.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and these are supposed to be men of God, don't forget , and administrators of the religion of peace!. You know jolly well if a Vicar thought a member of his flock could well be a bomber, he would say something to " someone " and you would expect him/her to do so.

Tony Price ● 4759d

Of course they would not report their own and would turn a blind eye. After all is it at the mosques that intimidation and teaching of hatred of non-muslims takes place. For too long others in the community have been gagged so would not come forward to report for fear of being charged with racism or for 'offending' them.The race card should no longer be used as a shield.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Re  it is a damn sight harder to spot a terrorist than might popularly be believed.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxx  for the ordinary man in the street maybe but with attendees at a mosque who noticeably  change in the eyes of the mosque elders, become  fanatical and I think went to Pakistan ( and we know what for )for those mosque  elders to say it is not  their job to mention  something to the relevant authorities as they are not thought police or it is not their job to report suspicions, I think is downright  deplorable. Had these four  succeeded what would the mosque personnel  feel, nothing or guilty.

Tony Price ● 4759d

Too bad, am I bovvered !!!!

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Don't believe you

Paul Cavanagh ● 4759d

Paul, so wrong on so many levels. You are right, unusually I am at home a lot lately because I have had major surgery ( hip replacement) otherwise I would not normally have time to witter on with the likes of you. How dare you call me a liar. You obviously don't read all the posts, you know nothing about me, and where is your proof of dishonesty ? Are you insinuating that the events in Boston are false. No, you are mad that this incident serves to totally support many statements I have made-yah boo sucks to you. You should follow the news then you might learn something about what we have to fear from these activities. As for my muslim associates, I work in a very public arena where I deal with all types of people and can't wait to get back when I can throw away my crutches....

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

James, when all else fails resort to insults.. but to answer your question, not lobotomy, a hip replacement so my brain is in fine form.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

You either lying to us about your imaginary Muslim friends or they actually exist and you are lying to them by being polite to their face and spewing forth bile about them on this forum and I suspect to anyone one else you corner. Not sure how tuning into US TV news is going to change the fact of your dishonesty. You also clearly don't have a job or socialise as you have been on this forum 24/7 for the last week or so.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4759d

Before you go Tom, when the 'Boston thing' is all done and dusted, I hope you will rethink where your loyalties should lie, and maybe I will be saying..'I TOLD YOU SO'...hope you are never caught up in any of these situations since we are under this kind of threat 24/7 as demonstrated in the 'Boston thing'. In case you are interested, my own family in Cambridge, Boston are OK thank god.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Lobotomy?

James Brown ● 4759d

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Paul how dare you call me a liar...I work and socialize every day with all kinds in a very public arena.As already iterated, not hatred, just realistic. Instead of wittering on making petty false accusations, turn on a US TV news station and educate yourself in the realities of the substance of my posts. Not concerned in the slightest about their traditions, just their hateful method of dealing with non-muslims ( Kafirs)and their adherence to Shariah Law.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Which is why it is important to be vigilant at all times.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Tom I am offended by the way you brush off 'The Boston thing' as if it is a minor incident and especially as it pertains so closely to the subject that has been debated all week on this forum. Just goes to show how little regard you have for these types of activities. For now I am more concerned about my family in Cambridge, Bos than bothering with your petty defence of these despicable incidents, 'THINGS' as you call it....unbelievable.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

No, I am not saying that, although I still think the threshold for taking action is a lot higher than you are suggesting.What I am saying is that withdrawing from the mosque is hardly grounds for declaring somebody a terrorist.Even though I am not the slightest bit religious myself I did become involved some years ago in the case of a young man withdrawing from my wife's church as he was also doing a little bit of work for me from time to time as well.  The young man was "not in a good place" as was the euphemism used by the clergy and without going into myriad detail I would agree.  He was a youth worker at the church and had been mentored for a number of years by the vicar.  Anyway, on your analysis we should have shopped him to the rozers as a potential terrorist.  His life had the potential (we all lost touch so we don't know the outcome) to spiral down.  OTOH, it might just have been a phase and he is a model citizen bringing up a family by now.My point is simply this: it is a damn sight harder to spot a terrorist than might popularly be believed.

Tony Colliver ● 4759d

Marie O'Connell doesn't have 'nice muslim friends.' Either she has just made them up to try and appear less odious than she does on this forum or they are acquaintances who are polite to her because they are unaware about her hateful views of their faith and traditions.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4759d

Too early to know for sure but there has been mention of them being terrorists. Just pray for our runners and spectators on Sunday. Hope the US  get the younger brother alive so as to get more info. My family live in Cambridge, Bos.but are OK.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Re  least the two suspects would appear to be so.              xxxxxxxxxx just read one has been shot dead and the other on the run. Shooting dead is too good for people like them, too quick!

Tony Price ● 4759d

Again Tom, you are making assumptions..I.haven't made any accusations......do yourself a favour and watch the news...not prejudiced just fear for my family and we will wait for the results..in any event they are terrorists...what does it take to wake you up ??

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Re ....surely it all confirms our concerns and there is no room for complacency.          cxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I think you will find Marie that the Boston bombings were by  white Americans, at least the two suspects would appear to be so. They videos show that and that is who the authorities there are looking for. They could be from the Middle East, but there are extreme doubts.

Tony Price ● 4759d

Again, there you go with the Boston thing. Theres no evidence at all this was a muslim attack but your prejudices are kicking in

Tom Clifford ● 4759d

Still following the events in Boston on US news....I have family in Cambridge, Boston. Unlike here, at least in the US these terrorists can't hide and be protected by the PC idiots or the "human rights" shields Take notes Britain and learn how to deal with them. Good luck to our own marathon runners and spectators on Sunday. Tom what are your views on all this ...does it not open your eyes even now....surely it all confirms our concerns and there is no room for complacency.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Of course, their allegiance and loyalty would always be with Islam and shariah regardless. Like you I have some really nice muslim friends but I am always aware that they live by shariah and Islamic ideology.

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Tom, as I have said many times, ALL muslims live by shariah law.....btw writing this while watching the terrible events in Boston !!!

Marie OConnell ● 4759d

Re  muslims share the same ideology to destroy this country?            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        not destroy it but  " take it over ",  part of the w/w caliphate. I have often  stood up for my Muslim friends, who being friends are good people as far as I am concerned, but another person said to me  that even many of good ones  could well fall in line with  the " leaders " if they got control.

Tony Price ● 4759d

Re  what they do whilst on this planet.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yep, agreed, well said.

Tony Price ● 4759d

Re  neighbour to the authorities unless they had really hard evidence.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      oh c'mon Tom. Are you trying to say that if an English person got wind  of a neighbour, or had reasonable suspicion, was planning  an act of terrorism  or incident whereby  persons would be killed and maimed , they would keep quiet.  I sincerely hope not and I think your assessment is incorrect.

Tony Price ● 4759d

No-one is suggesting a correlation, thats irrelevant. The question was did you suddenly become suspicious if all members of the irish community because of the actions of a minority. If not, why are you so adamant that all muslims share the same ideology to destroy this country?

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Aaron, have you ever thought of being a politician? Together we could sort this lot out !!

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Me - 'PC'?I had to laugh.Don't throw your toys out of the pram Nigel, just don't try and censor others.Defeat them with the power of your argument.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

Whether one goes to church or not is irrelevant IMV.My personal perspective on religion is "a plague on all their houses".What matter is not which particular brand of sky-fairy that an individual claims to believe in but what they do whilst on this planet.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

I'm really not sure how may 'indigs' go around shopping their neighbours to the fuzz either Tony.Natural reserve and concern that their interpretation might be mistaken would prevent most people from reporting a neighbour to the authorities unless they had really hard evidence.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

"Maybe you need to go to 'specsavers'..."You know Marie, you could make a lot more headway with your argument if you could just resist the temptation to dish out the gratuitous insults and focussed on reasoned debate instead.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

Tom the Irish question always comes up yet there is no correlation whatsoever. The Irish troubles were the fault of this country going around the world taking over other countries which included just 6 counties  of Ireland which is still part of England to this day. If another country invaded England and stole a whole section for themselves would you not retaliate ???.. So don't compare that situation to the far more dangerous issues of Islam in this country.... Or maybe this is payback time... Who knows !!

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Tom , it's not hatred but fear since we have enough knowledge of the lengths they are prepared to go to in order to fulfill their ultimate mission. I work with the public and of course ther are some very nice people among them but the bottom line is their allegiance is to Islam, which hates the west and they ALL live by the laws of Shariah, even trying to turn parts of London into Shariah zones. There are enough of the 'minority' to be of huge danger to us and having grandchildren, I fear for their future. I admire your defence but to them we are 'kafirs' ie non Muslims and their is very little humanity in the way they carry out the atrocities

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Re  attacks on our way of life in the name of Islam.          xxxxxxxxxxxxx as a matter of interest Tom, that clip re the mosque man was on BBC News just now, and he did say  in 2010 it was noticeable these 4 would be bombers had noticeably changed  and  more extremist but it not up to them being as thought police and it is not their job to report suspcious circs/ changes/concerns. So I repeat I find that attitude  deplorable, in fact  quite scary. To know we have in our midst  those not only  wishing  to do us harm, serious harm but in addition those who either know about them or have suspicions, and are not prepared to  alert the appropriate authorities. Disturbing, where or with whom do those persons' loyalties lay?

Tony Price ● 4760d

Ooh good question Jaz!! Marie.....?

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Yes I am concerned. I am concerned about any people, their religion is irrelevant, who commit acts of terror by blowing up bits of my country. I am also concerned that people like you are spreading hatred against a section of society because of a few individuals. I`m not denying that there have been several high profile attacks on our way of life in the name of Islam. That is a big problem for us, but to label all muslims as terrorists is really not helping the situation. We need to start seeing everyone as human first and foremost. I also agree, as many of you have pointed out, that certain sections of society could attempt to integrate more which would help diffuse tension, but by exactly the same token a lot of us could be more inclusive ourselves and stop flooding the media with unfounded hatred. You go around preaching this stuff and you are adding to the problem

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

I wouldn't bother Jaz! I would be offended if it wasn't so farcical

Suzan Issa ● 4760d

Did you hate all Irish when they bombed Ealing? I was five minutes away from death, but I still didn't hate all Irish.

Jaz Brown ● 4760d

Not a biggot Tom but a realist with a genuine fear for the future of this country. Are you not concerned about the atrocities thus far... Even whilst we write here today four terrorists have sentenced for a failed plot to kill people here  where they are living freely. Maybe you need to go to 'specsavers' to enable you to see what these people are dong to us. They have no allegiance  to this country and their stated mission is to take us over..... Wake up Tom.

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Re  dynamics behind the increased foreign influx and influence upon this former Anglo-Saxon nation?           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx due to the way this Forum  layout works, it is difficult to see who or what you are referring to, or indeed what you are saying or advocating, so perhaps you will answer your question for us?.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Perfectly put James. We have had enough of being gagged for fear of 'offending ' these people. Well now we need to voice what the majority of the people of this country feel about he abuse of our hospitality. We now know their agenda ie to anhiialate the west and inflict harm to non Muslims.

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

And whilst we're at it let's bring back the steam train. We can then reintroduce 'clippies' on buses, wrap fish and chips in newspaper, resurrect 'Tiffin', issue policemen with whistles rather than radios and for absolute Britishness, extract the DNA of Lord Nelson and have his clone patrol the high seas in order to assist in the rejuvenation of the glorious British empire. Let us for God sake resist change to this green and pleasant  land at all costs and try at the very least to preserve what shreds remain of our glorious Empire mentality. Let us take a leaf from Mr Bridger's book in fact and drive them all(all being Johnny foreigner) into the sea. Is that what you ultimately want...is that what would give you and your type ultimate satisfaction and security?Explain to this readership (if you have a care to do so) exactly where you stand in terms of your understanding of the dynamics behind the increased foreign influx and influence upon this former Anglo-Saxon nation?

Robert Rosamond ● 4760d

Jaz, I very much doubt they are respect Christianity. Many Muslims love to go on about being a peaceful religion which is simply a joke. Another 4 muslims have just been convicted for bomb plotting here in the UK. In simple terms, they should f*ck off if they don't like it.

James Rogers ● 4760d

Also stopped reading now, too much hate on this forum.

Jaz Brown ● 4760d

I work with many Muslims, and they all respect Christianity. They wonder why so many people here do not go to church or practice their Christianity. I also work with just three practicing Christians, (most of my work colleagues would have been raised christian). We all mix, go out together for social functions. Who are you worried about not mixing? Christmas is still Christmas, Easter still Easter etc. Maybe if you actually got to know someone of a different culture or religion to yourselves you may realise that underneath we all have the same morals and values. We are all human. Do not mistake fundamentalists with religion.

Jaz Brown ● 4760d

That's like saying all British follow (the Christian) god's law.A patently ridiculous statement.I know many "Muslims" that most definitely do not follow sharia law.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

Do you go to church?

Jaz Brown ● 4760d

Andy, my last post was meant for Tony. I just wonder how many of the posters who are so anti-muslim, and state that this is a christian country actually go to church.

Jaz Brown ● 4760d

Thank you Andy Jones

Jaz Brown ● 4760d

Do you go to Church?

Jaz Brown ● 4760d

Re  then stopped coming....     xxxxxxxx was it not more than that. I think I heard on BBC midday News  the  mosque man say they had become noticeably changed and more radical/political/military ??. So when asked by the reporter did the mosque elders  tell the authorities, ie that there WAS something worth reporting, the mosque man said no as they are not thought police and not up to them to report such matters/changes/ suspicions. Now that is what I find really disturbing, ie  they know or have reason to be " concerned " but decline to warn those who could arrange evading action and protect the innocent. And that I don't regard as behaving responsibly, in fact quite  disgracefully. It is no good asking how they would feel if  the 4 had succeeded in causing much death mutilation and strife as their answers  would either not be the truth or make for comforting reading. You are aware it is OK by Muslim rules for a Muslim  to lie to a kaffir in order to escape justice, or for any reason.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Ok I am being silly there but it dosn`t strike me that theres anything he could have reported him for. He said he used to come to their mosque, then stopped coming....

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Re  They should all be reporting eachother for just being muslim!!!          xxxxxxxxxxxx Oh don't be so silly Tom. The  gripe at issue there is not that they are Muslims but that they do not feel obliged to report  dangerous persons. I am sure that if they had suspicions re an apparent white Christian person they would put the authorities on guard especially if they thought he was going to do harm to Muslims, but not to do so  with fellow Muslims really casts  doubts on their  bona fides, right to be here and undoubted guilt of racism.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Re  has experienced this on a daily basis?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I could have written  your message myself. For some time now I buy what I can in Southampton ( where I theoretically live half my time ) because of the  reasons you cite.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Ah yes i saw the same article. Clearly that means all muslims are intent on blowing you up. Including the lady with her young son who said she was as surprised as anyone to find out. But shes a muslim so we should be suspicious of her. And also the man from the mosque who refused to report him because he had nothing to report. I mean how dare he? They should all be reporting eachother for just being muslim!!!You really need to listen to yourself Marie, you come accross as a real bigot. I`m sure you`re not but some of the stuff you are posting defys belief

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

ALL Muslims follow shariah law...Nuff said.Just watched 6pm news with feature on the Luton 4 . .ggggggrrrrrrr. are you still a defender...talk about patriotism..not

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Well Aaron has made the distinction between good and bad muslims so for that he gets respect. You, Marie, are still intent on tainting everyone with the same brush and its that I find offensive

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Aaron you are the voice of reason...

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Even worse on the phone. As I am now at home all day recovering from surgery, I pick up all phone calls. Getting really sick of foreigners calling ref.PPI, loans, etc..etc..they are so annoyingnd patronising and introduce themselves as John, Richard, Oliver, Mike  etc.. Western names which clearly aren't their real names. Yes beginning to feel like a foreigner in my own country. Another issue is scammimg. So many who come in are from highly corrupt countries which they continue to promote here....

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Well is ANY muslim follows the shariah law then I do not feel they should be allowed in our country at all! as our law is right here and should not be questioned by the muslims at all. I find it bad enough that we even know the name of it, let along the laws within it. completely ridiculous.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

All muslims follow shariah law...so where are there any 'good' ones ???

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Yes Tony I remember that.It all started when this country was misguided and wearing rose coloured specs and thought a nice rainbow society with everyone integrating was the way to go. Well it soon became obvious that we were just being used to assist in the take over and exploitation of our good will and hospitality.Integration on their part was never on the cards but people have now seen through them and they must be curtailed, not to mention closing the borders.

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Bring back Margaret Thatcher I say, MT would not stand for the muslim take over one bit including the influx of oversea arrivals. Growing up I would of never of thought I would not recognize my neighborhood, I feel like the minority when am out and about and in fact I think the British people are outnumbered now so we are really the minority.Slightly of topic but relevantWhen I go to shops now no one hardly speaks if any English. there is many occasions where the customer in front of me is speaking a different language with the cashier then when it is my turn she/he will not understand a word I am saying, now tell me not one person here has experienced this on a daily basis?

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

I believe you, you need to understand we are not angry with the 'good' muslim people. but as it is their 'brother' who want to control and change our country, we will want them  out of here and it is up to the 'good' muslim leaders to take responsibility for the fellow 'brothers' actions and not impose their violent and bullying ways on our laws, culture and beliefs. and if the 'good' muslims cannot live here without trying to change our land and culture then unfortunately they are not welcome here either.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Ah fine, yes you did say "have you" and not "you have"So the answer would be no. Do you believe me? If I genuinely though someone was justifying it i would report them at least to the site admin. Feel free to do so

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

IRA was not a religious extreme group by the way, so you cannot compare their stupid attacks with a religion that wants to control the UK.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Re  police etc..eg Ali Desai in Ealing          xxxxxxxxxxx and very often end up suing whatever organisation they are in for racism, ignoring the fact they were taken on in the first place. Remember the last Govt. made arrangements for ethnics to be fast tracked in the promotion stakes ahead of we indigs. And in the initial taking on. Somerset Police applicants for one example  rebelled and I think got level playng field  restored. Who instigates these various preferential treatments for ethnics, and why?

Tony Price ● 4760d

No I will not retract what I have said, you wanted to join this debate.If you read what I said anyways, I said "have you" not "you have" implying I am more asking you a question with an opinion after.Either way I think you are defending them so I will leave it as that, do as you please. Please do not try to 'threaten me with action' me for defending my my country. Funny how quick you will turn against me, when I am clearly in my right to free speech. If you do not like it, do not read or comment on this post.SIMPLE

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Tony, which is why it is scary to see them infiltrate the government, military, police etc..eg Ali Desai in Ealing, and the bomber in Fort Hood Texas...very worrying.

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Looking at the building next to it I think I was wrong, the tower looks more than 8 story high? Can someone verify the height?Correct me if I am wrong, is that not trying to be imposing? I feel sorry for who ever will live near this place. face mask is advised.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Re  thing got permission to be built?        xxxxxxxxxxx Aaron, is that a statement or question. Either way the Islamification of Ealing continues apace, and noticeably so. The number of females now in the area showing at most, just their face is very great. Just wait till those in charge in the Local Admin. offices are of the same persuasion, and see even greater unstoppable change. Taliban  sweeping the Uxbridge Road from S/bush to Hayes whipping  people ito the mosques, as in Afghanistan, Somalia , Mali et al.

Tony Price ● 4760d

I haven`t defended or made excuses for any acts of terroism, muslim or otherwise. Please do not accuse me of this. This is slander and if I could be bothered I would have a watertight case against you. A simple retraction of your accusation will suffice

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

There is no connection with the N.Ireland situation which is always brought up by way of distracting from the subject being debated. The Irish situation was totally caused by this country which went around the world taking away parts of other countries eg.just 6 counties of Ireland....so reprisal would have to be expected...so there is no correlation..

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Tom you defend and make excuses for everything muslim people do in our country to get their image of islam across our country so in theory you are defending the bombings. they bomb us because we do not follow them, once this is a muslim state you think they will bomb a bus? no.you clearly know why we are angry, yet you still stick by the extreme muslim bullies.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Er Marie told Tony off for mentioning the IRA as it was in the past. Its clearly not in the past is it as its still going on as the news article link i provided clearly proves. Would appreciate if you would use your brain too

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Not until you can explain to me how you possibly arrived at that conclusion from what I said. I genuinely cannot understand how i even implied that i justify the London bombings????Actually I am pretty offended by your remarks and accusations and would appreciate if you could withdraw or justify them

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Tom - What Marie means is that the past is something that will not reoccur. Muslims bombing the UK or any other country is not the past yet as it is still on going. so use your brain a little bit please. I hope you are not caught in the next terror attack because I will (unfortunately) tell you "I told you so".

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Tom - you have no logic, please re-frame from using that word as you clearly use it inappropriately. You have been justifying every single thing about muslims, so I think it's fair to say you defend their actions..  If you do not, then you are just a confused little rabbit hiding behind your ears.  Like I have said, my partner's family is muslim and they do not condone what the other muslims have been imposing on Britain. Maybe you just haven't realized how much it is affecting our country and how much it will affect our children, future children and grandchildren growing up in what ever will be Britain then.  We have enough problems of our own to deal with within our country at the moment, we do not need a problem which is alien and which we can prevent from the start.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Yep, recognised. And I``m in danger of underminisng my own argument here by suggesting you all are. Apologies for that. I can understand that fear, its just it winds me up when people choose to extrapolate that actions of a few onto a whole section of society. And thats not fair.

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

That thing got permission to be built?

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

If they start broadcasting from that height five times a day they are going to be in for some serious complaints - not least from me!

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

MarieCan you define what you mean by the past? Its just that on 4th March this year police in Derry stopped a major terrorist attack.... Is that the past? Just so we`re clear...http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/04/northern-ireland-police-ira-mortar

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Re  wish that it is out of view from my house            xxxxxxxxxxxxx frighteneing.  What is the  " minaret " for, calling the faithful to prayer, 5 times a day?

Tony Price ● 4760d

We're not all against Muslims - although a number of regular contributors clearly are they are definitely the minority.I think the debate reflects a real fear that the area is being taken over by people with a Muslim background however and that these people are spectacularly failing to integrate.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

Just deal with what is happening here and now, and not in the past...

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Well, apart from the IRA of course, and the Red Army Faction (aka Baader-Meinhof Group) and ETA, and Shining Path, and, well, you get the idea.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

Ok I`m bowing out now cos this is getting stupid. Just tell me hopw you can possibly extrapolate that up to your view that all muslims are the same as this minority extremist group?I am also against people blowing up our country. I would hope we wold all agree on that. I am not against muslims as you all seem to be...

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Now I`m totally confused. How did I say that..? Kinda proves my point about peoples logic though. I am baffled how you came to that conclusion from my statement..?Extremists as in people quietly praying quietly,shouting in the street, or causing violence. Simply trying to say there is a whole spectrum of strength of view in many religions, its not just restricted to one. But i aplogise if i wasn`t 100% clear, and apologise if I have also accidently called you fat..?

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Don't need to research or look for logic, just look at the footage of airplanes being flown into buildings killing over 3000 people (including my friend.)...also I worked for one of the airlines owning two of the hijacked airplanes. I also watched footage of the London bombings....any more proof needed...just remember, not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists thus far have been muslims...just today did you watch BBC featuring the Luton 4 ?...You need to open your eyes and follow the news....

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

To those who are in favour of the development I hope you enjoy living next door to this. http://www.pam.ealing.gov.uk/PlanNet/documentstore/DC11123450-23-00015_120801_121_01_1.PDFI can only wish that it is out of view from my house

i Razack ● 4760d

Re  how do you stop them?        xxxxxxxxxxxxx the answer to that Tony could be quite serious, but what many have voiced, ie civil war. There are those who think it  could well come to that and which if you think about it, could transpire. Indeed, a few years ago on AOL Message boards  someone said the military are keeping a close watch on  the situation and who could/would step in if felt necessary in the country's best interests. One problem I see is that the  creeping paralysis of the P C threat goes beyond our shores, Scandinavia being a prime example but many E U countries as well, and even further afield. Someone wrote  recently that    liberalism  is a mental disease. Seems catching and with no known antidote at present?

Tony Price ● 4760d

[Nigel exits stage left with his ball under his arm...]:-)

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

"There are extremists within all religions who decide to inflict their views on others.."Tom - have you just justified the muslims bombing London and threats of bombing us (as a way of inflicting there views on others) You are disgusting to defend there actions, you think it is right the way muslims inflict their views? WOW.. we now know your true nature.BY THE WAY tom.. I did not know there was other extreme religions around the world right now threatening to bomb and blow up the UK and USA because we will not bow down. please enlighten me? so I can rant and rave about them being in our country also (just to make it fair on the muslims).

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Re  site moderators and admins to take action.          xxxxxxxxxxxx  may I temper caution there Nigel, you are treading on very dangerous ground. The solution is in your own hands quite easily, just don't read any posts made by certain individuals. You probably had no intention but you are playing straight into the hands of some persons who tread these boards and  have in the past tried every  trick in the book to get others who disagree with their political views removed from the Forums, including by false made up posts etc etc. "They " managed to get some removed and did their damndest  to get me banned, so I am particularly  interested in such  unprofessional goings on. May I ask please  that you give them no reason , support nor encouragement for their dangerous  aims and desires. Thank you.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Point taken Tony....just that I don't know of any other group that hates us so much...but yes we should not harbor ANYONE who hates us.

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

"You are just forming your own assumptions " Well join the club then.... None of what you`ve posted on here has been researched, formed logically or even articulated that well..

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

You are just forming your own assumptions and as you say..I have no idea...yet and as I say we will wait to hear. At least the Baptist guy didn't threaten death to you which would have happened if you did the same in a Muslim country...Maybe if you had listened to him you would find that he was probably talking words of wisdom not death and destruction ...... .you really don't get it do you which is scary..

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Re  we are not prepared to harbor muslims who hate us...           xxxxxxxxxxxxxx change that to  " anyone "  Marie, so you can't be accused of being racist!!.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Re  Soon husband and wife will be removed from all official forms,            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx that Benjamin is not as far fetched as you would imagine. I either read or heard a few months ago re a local authority, Brighton I think, was planning to remove the designation of Mr and Mrs fron Council forms as those terms  could well upset transgenders, transvestites and trans sexuals. I thought to myself what bloody fool is going to think up something stupid next. and to think such people actually get paid, and by us , for such cras rubbish. They should at best be re-employed, sweeping  the streets, but then I suppose they run the risk of being chastised by persons who prefer to see dirty streets?.

Tony Price ● 4760d

"preach hatred, death and destruction to all but other muslims.....BOSTON ????????????????????????"Right so the question marks in here indicate you have no idea who is responsible and are in no way suggesting muslims might be? In that case you might want to proof read your posts firsts as it certaintly dosn`t read that way. And I think you know it.And the point about the Baptist Church guy was countering your assumption that other religions go about their business quietly. There are extremists within all religions who decide to inflict their views on others..

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

Nigel,There are black, white, yellow, brown etc contributers to this topic. Who exactly do you suggest is being racially targeted here?

i Razack ● 4760d

We are racist now? wow, I think it is time you strip all rights as a British Citizen. I think it is people like you who turn Britain into "Broken Britain" by defending the very people who have ruined it.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

- Nigel, instead of calling Marie "racist" why do you not question why she has so much anger for "muslims". MAYBE something has been going on so long now that people can not help but grow to hate them?You seem to just hate anything British, maybe you should jump on a plane to Iraq or whatever country they come from and enjoy the rest of your life there? maybe bring the western hating muslims with you. By the way NIGEL, do you condone abu hamza's beliefs and actions caused by them beliefs?

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Consider me buggered off then and happy to leave you and the racists to fester together.It's been fun, save for the racists and the 'free speech' PC idiots.

Nigel Brooks ● 4760d

Tom, you need to read posts properly.....didn't name anyone...did you not notice the question marks ??? We wait to find out. Also if the Baptist guy was exercising his right to freedom of speech in an Islamic country he would have suffered a horrible death by now...get real...

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Re rarely heard Muslims criticise their own people for terrorist activities. They are noted for their silence on this and other topics when it refers to their own            xxxxxxxxxxxx  how timely Jean are your comments. Less than 30 mins ago on BBC 1pm News was a bit re the most recent example of those who love us, the 4 would be bombers from Luton, who for their love of us will be spending a long time at Her Majesty's pleasure BUT a senior man from their mosque was interviewed and asked what he knew. Answer was the mosque leaders had noticed  great change in these  four who had become political or militarised ( I can't remember exactly what term was used )When the interviewer asked did you inform the authorites, answer was we are not the thought police and not our job to report such matters. So there you are, quite reassuring,and very well integrated? Augurs well for the future, as numbers increase.        You have of course  heard a the latest on another case of the    joys of diversity?.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

"The biggest threat to democracy at present is political correctness. It is a new fascist ideology that seeks to stamp out and destroy any dissenters.The irony is, in their drive for diversity they are destroying it by harmonising everything."Agreed 100%.The problem is - how do you stop them?

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

Don't start with the "no platform for xyz [insert somebody you don't agree with here]" business!I don't like what she says either, but she has a right to say it and you have no right to stop her.I have always wondered how participants on forums that have an "ignore" button manage to get on and follow the thread with the contributions from people they don't agree with simply not appearing.I imagine it must make for a very disjointed experience.If you want to start your own club that excludes people with opinions you don't like then b*gger off and do it, but don't try and screw around with this one.

Tony Colliver ● 4760d

Cant believe I`m getting sucked into this, very interesting thread to read but more because of what it reveals about peoples logic and reasoning. And in some cases lack of..Marie - Can you send me a link to where it says the muslims caused the Bostons bombs? Oh and turn caps lock off, its very annoying.Also I just passed a guy in the high street shouting and screaming religious indoctrination at passers by. Definetly not quiet and in his own home. He was from the baptist chuchAndy - Kudos for being so calm throughout this.Keep it up guys, very entertaining!!

Tom Clifford ● 4760d

For pity's sake will someone shut this damned racist up?There is no evidence of any religious angle to the cowardly attack in Boston.Given that this attack came on the anniversaries of both Waco and the Oklahoma City bombings, the primary avenue of investigation is, according to the spokesman on the BBC yesterday, white supremacists.I am thoroughly sick and tired of the racist rants of this bitter and twisted individual which do nothing to add to reasoned debate.I do wish that this forum enabled one to hit an ignore button.C'mon reasoned debaters, what do you think? Let the racist rants continue or leave it to the site moderators and admins to take action.

Nigel Brooks ● 4760d

Unless the PC idiots and 'human rights' are abolished we will be cursed by the likes of Abu Qatada, Abu Hamsa and their ilk who cost us hard working tax payers a fortune. Why do these rules work to protect them and not us....what is wrong with this country ...we have to show that we are not prepared to harbor muslims who hate us...

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

Muslims do not want to live in harmony. Islam goes far deeper than a 'religion' it is a whole way of life for Muslins which dictates and permeates every aspect of their existence. There can be no comparison between mosques and churches. Most other faiths follow and practice their 'religion' in their own private time without intimidating, imposing or impacting the lives of those they live amongst. Churches do not preach hatred, death and destruction to all but other muslims.....BOSTON ????????????????????????

Marie OConnell ● 4760d

The biggest threat to democracy at present is political correctness. It is a new fascist ideology that seeks to stamp out and destroy any dissenters.The irony is, in their drive for diversity they are destroying it by harmonising everything. They want a coffee coloured world where we all pray to an unknown God that loves all, condemns none and values all lifestyles, where winning is the same as losing, where achievement is unfair to failures, where all are equal but some have more than others.It's a one size fits all. In many respects it's extremely evil as it wants to destroy individuality.Soon husband and wife will be removed from all official forms, meaning you will only see partner. Why? So we don't offend those that aren't husband and wife. But hang on, aren't we now oppressing those that wish to celebrate being  a husband and wife?

Benjamin Dennehy ● 4760d

Excellent

Charles Campbell ● 4760d

Well said Jean,You have summed up everything in a much better way I could. This was my point I was trying to get at.Thank you.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

To live in harmony with one's fellow man one must show tolerance to those of another faith, or none. Surely it is up to each and everyone to treat his/her neighbour with respect, irrespective of whether or not that neighbour shares the same beliefs?This wonderful country of hours has welcomed people from overseas to live and work amongst us, but I feel that our way of life is changing at a rapid rate, so much so that areas of this land are barely recognisable.Cultures which do not integrate or tolerate their neighbours is surely a recipe for disaster. Why come here if you do not respect us, wish to mingle with us, hate us and wish us harm?This was predominately a Christian country but more and more this has been 'dummed down' in case we upset the minority. As Tony said, Christmas becomes 'Winterval' our meal must be halal, whether the majority like it or not.When you visit a country you should respect and abide by their laws, so even more so when you migrate to a country you should be willing to live by the laws and ways of that country, not try to change it to suit your own desires.Muslims sadly are NOT tolerant of those who do not follow their beliefs. I recall years ago in Malaysia a little Catholic Church was ordered to switch of a cross on the steeple as it was upsetting Muslims.Non Muslims were NOT permitted to purchase homes - there was a huge sign on developments stating 'Bumiputras Only' (Malays only). I am not saying that this would happen here but it does give some insight as to their mindset.I have rarely heard Muslims criticise their own people for terrorist activities. They are noted for their silence on this and other topics when it refers to their own.Unless and until these people change their views and their ways the feeling of alienation amongst the indigenous population can only get worse.We should follow the example of the Australian PM - you are welcome to come and live here amongst us but this is a Christian country and if you don't like our ways then you are welcome to leave.None of our leaders has the guts to speak out and we are termed racist when we air our views.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4760d

'you said there weren't any. I proved you were wrong, and who more do you want the the Grand Mufti  of Jerusalem no less.'Apologies. I seem to have confused you again by using sentence structures that you aren't able to cope with. I refer you back to the post where I say 'the overwhelming majority of Muslims fought against Hitler.' Majority is a word that means most but not all. Implicit in this statement is that some Muslims did indeed fight on the side of the Axis powers.What seems to have befuddled you is when I said 'Hitler had no Muslim allies'. Most people would assume this meant that no sovereign Muslim territories were allied to Hitler but you have taken the meaning to be that no single Muslim supported Hitler. To be clear, this is not what I meant.As to how many Muslims fought on the side of the Nazis I don't know the exact number but 'hundreds of thousands' is certainly not it. You appear to have just made that number up. Germany had no territories with signifcant Muslim populations. Italy had areas of North African but as much of this had been recently conquered by force they probably were unwilling participants certainly not the volunteers that the Muslims were who fought with the British. The Germans tried to make trouble for the British across their empire and in some cases they had existing adversories who were Muslim but little effective opposition came from these efforts.The point about British supporters of Hitler was aiming to try to demonstrate to you that in any nation/community there will be some that do choose a different direction. Their actions can't be used to characterise those of everyone else.I'm not sure how my insistence on historical accuracy on these matters constitutes an 'anti-indig Brit stance.' Surely a recognition of the debt we owe to everyone who supported us in our time of greatest need elevates us as a nation and a failure to acknowledge it would make us contemptible?

Andy Jones ● 4760d

Tony, I agree and personally with regards to halal food, when I come to have children I DO NOT want them eating ANY halal food or food that is cooked or prepared next to halal food. But wait for it, I will now be called racist for that.I have seen enough of this muslim power take over crap to know it is not needed here. They hate us(western people) simple, and want to change our country so we will no longer have a place to call home. It is funny I came back from America end of march and whilst out there I felt more safe and welcomed than being in Britain.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Re  as long as they do not try to change the country into their image          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx sadly Aaron, that is exactly what is happening. As I said in another posting, halal shops abound all over the place now and to think meat in " public " establishments is now halal to please any possible Muslims and foisting it on all other persons without their knowledge and consent, beggars belief.  Whoever authorises  such behaviour needs publicly naming, shaming, dismissal and generally booting out. Can you imagine a Muslim country  making their " public " establishments serving non-halal meat just to please non Muslims, and not telling their Muslim " clients " . Of  course not, so why do we allow in reverse what goes on  here. Perhaps the pro Islam persons on the Forum will explain and give a clear answer. And why are our MP's not all up in arms about this blatant racism and demanding a stop to the practice. Schools and " rest/retirement homes/hospitals etc " for starters.

Tony Price ● 4760d

I stand corrected. It is exactly the same for the Catholic Church but not the Anglican Church as a whole.

Andy Jones ● 4760d

Re  found examples of one or two individual Muslims           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx you said there weren't any. I proved you were wrong, and who more do you want the the Grand Mufti  of Jerusalem no less. And it wasn't just a few, it was hundreds of thousands, whole divisions. And what the hell has British people cooperating with Germany got  to do with the Muslim/Nazi situation. Your anti indig Brit stance comes through strongly. Would you not be happier in a Muslim country, as you are so noticeably pro Islam ( or is it just anti Brit? )or are you wanting to set up part of the Caliphate here, the flag of Islam flying over 10 Downing Street as some have voiced  their wish to be?.

Tony Price ● 4760d

Aaron Shaw wrote, "that is funny, just done some research and seems that today only 3% of the Indian army is muslim that is around only 29,000 troops... Now I am not sure about the war but i doubt your figure are anywhere close."The Second World War is over. In fact it finished over 60 years ago. Because they are not involved in a global conflict the Indian Government don't have as big an army as they used to. There was a larger proportion of Muslims in the Indian army in WWII because at that time the predominantly Muslim Pakistan and Bangladesh were part of India.Marie O'Connell wrote, "Don't need any more history lessons. Times, people and circumstances (except Muslims ) have changed and we need to deal with dangers these people represent today." When you say Muslims haven't changed, do you mean they would still be willing to fight and die for our freedoms as they did during WWII?A knowledge of history is critical for understanding of our current day society. There are vital lessons to be learned including that the demonisation and persecution of a minority by a majority always ends badly."Mosques cannot be compared to churches and in any case this is a Christian country..... as churches would not be allowed in an Islamic country so mosques should not be erected here"There are 57 Muslim majority countries in the World and Churches can be built in all but one - Saudi Arabia. They don't allow Churches as they believe all their land is sacred to their religion as that is where it was born. I don't believe that following that country's lead in forming policy in the UK as you advocate is a good idea.

Andy Jones ● 4760d

Re  go to a Muslim state and put up one church            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  no chance, many churches in Muslim countries are being bombed, burned, closed , defaced and generally made unwelcome, as of course are the worshippers. loads are being killed, imprisoned for their faith and generally persecuted. What also worries me is the UN does s.d all about it, the M C B is quiet on that but vociferous on anything anywhere which affects Muslims ( I can remember they asked Jack Straw to go to Paris and plead on behalf of Muslims in France re some proposed restriction there, religious symbol in school dress maybe ? ). And one must say the leaders of the Christian faiths have not been exactly outspoken either. One Pope did and got blasted by the Muslims. The situation is too much one way. The Koran teaches Muslims to kill kafirs ( us ) especially Jews or at least, impose diminitude, and to pay an infidel tax to Muslims, we being second class citizens in their eyes. Christians and other non-believers need to stand up on a worldwide basis and hit back appropriately. How about a tax on Muslims in non Muslim countries.

Tony Price ● 4760d

"The Indian army during WWII numbered 2.4 million of which about 750,000 were Muslims. "that is funny, just done some research and seems that today only 3% of the Indian army is muslim that is around only 29,000 troops... Now I am not sure about the war but i doubt your figure are anywhere close.but what if surprising is that if you are right! how comes over 700,000 muslims have left the army or changed religion? Like Marie has said many times now, what matters is how the muslims are now, they are dangerous and it is down to the good muslims and their countries to take responsibility for there fellow followers, it is not our responsibility.No other religion poses a terrorist threat to so many other countries. just to put this in, Britain is happy to have muslims here just as we have other religions as long as they do not try to change the country into their image based on their beliefs overseas.

Aaron Shaw ● 4760d

Don't need any more history lessons. Times, people and circumstances (except Muslims ) have changed and we need to deal with dangers these people represent today. Mosques cannot be compared to churches and in any case this is a Christian country..... as churches would not be allowed in an Islamic country so mosques should not be erected here especially as they are places which teach hatred of the west...no more mosques....

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

It does seem a shame that given that so many people of this faith fought and died for the freedoms we enjoy today and are now having their contributions denied.Tony Price has found examples of one or two individual Muslims who were persuaded to support Hitler but if he looked he could also find example of British people who supported and even fought for Hitler.The Indian army during WWII numbered 2.4 million of which about 750,000 were Muslims. Support for the British cause was more widespread amongst Muslims than Hindus who were more inclined to respond to Gandhi's pacifist messager. Aaron Shaw has raised the Sikh contribution which shouldn't be ignored but only 150,000 Sikh's fought for the British - the highest proportion of their population than any other religious group but still a fraction of the Muslim support. Please bear in mind this was a volunteer army - possibily the biggest in history. It was slightly smaller than the British army but not by much and saw action not just in Burma but across most theatres of war during the conflict. It would be hard for any one to convincingly argue it didn't make a decisive difference to the outcome.Perhaps the words of Winston Churchill might give you some pause for reflection. He said, ‘We must not on any account break with the Moslems, who represent a hundred million people, and the main army elements on which we must rely for the immediate fighting’The associations and friendships made between British and Indian servicemen during this time did lead to some of the latter settling here not just Sikhs but Muslims also. The associations continue in this area, for instance the RAF's Muslim Association is based in Northolt. I for one would think it would be wrong now to deport them, their children and their grandchildren.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

Tony and Marie seem to be the only ones not scared to speak the truth with me about this situation.And "jaz" how dare you compare mosques to our churches that were built from our beliefs, culture and history. Do not dare try to justify the number of mosque being built because of the number of our churches. It kind of interesting that you say this though, so is this the reason muslims want to build so many? To out number our belief to claim dominance?Let me go to a Muslim state and put up one church for every mosque, you tell me what would happen? Your reply to me will shed light on your intelligence.

Aaron Shaw ● 4761d

Re how they were given planning permission          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      question is who gave that permission. As time goes on and indigs are replaced by those whose origins are from overseas, control will be lost and no longer in our hands. All we can do then  is sit back and watch it happen.

Tony Price ● 4761d

Re  There are over 60 if not more in the Ealing borough              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    hardly surprising bearing in mind Christianity is THE religion of the counry. There were three synogogues but how many now I do not know.      Re  What are you all frightened of?           The changing of the situation whereby OUR religion, customs and culture is  at risk from alien others. That Christmas has  been  relegated to Winterthal  should frighten everyone

Tony Price ● 4761d

Some of these buildings are eyesores and totally  not in keeping with the surrounding buildings especially in Southall.Cannot ever understand how they were given planning permission.They look tacky with fairy lights hanging from every protrusion and thoroughly tasteless .There are  more than enough already... NO MORE !!!!

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

Just wondered if any of you go to church? There are over 60 if not more in the Ealing borough, plenty for you to chose from. Just asking. There are also a number of temples, Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist, there is one Synagogue, I know of.      Also at present there is already a Mosque in West Ealing, that has been there for years as well as an Islamic centre, there are also small Mosques in Acton, Northolt, Southall and Greenford. (Not one in West Acton) Small and often in buildings that were derelict, like the one in West Ealing. What are you all frightened of?

Jaz Brown ● 4761d

They landed in Heathrow and just took over the first place they came to !!!!!

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

Re  the Sikhs are no longer happy and from what I know tension is building.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      indeed so. The previous MP, P. Khabra? had something to say re the Somali youths in particular which caused an outcry, plus we read in the Gazette a few years back re Indians  moving out of Southall because the  number of Somalis moving there and who the Indians do not like. If anyone thinks this multi-culturalism is making  some grand  friendly society, they are greatly mistaken. What we have  is a multi-fragmented society and I fear  the Islamists, being the more pushy and agitating, will get the greater hearing. Their stated aim is a world wide caliphate which must be  resisted for the good of ALL, especially females, whose word in the ears of Islamists is worth only half that of a man. The word of at  least two women is needed to counteract that of one man.

Tony Price ● 4761d

Re  more detail *F*or those that care:        xxxxxxxxxx of that missing " F ".    Uckfield for example

Tony Price ● 4761d

Re Can I suggest reading some books to get a better understanding of your own country's history?        xxxxxxxxxxxxxx    no,    " The two most noted Arab politicians who actively collaborated with the Nazi were Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (al Quds) Haj Amin al-Husseini[19] [20] and the Iraqi prime minister Rashid Ali al-Gaylani.[21][22" Plus as I said earlier, the Arabs fought  with and on behalf of the Nazis, one common bond was hatred of Jews, and the ousting of the British from the Middle East. It was the Grand Mufti, not the Calif  who went to stay in Berlin. There was an Arab Nazi Division?

Tony Price ● 4761d

Re  were on either side?        xxxxxxxxxxx yes, they were , at least the Arabs. There was an Arab " Nazi " brigade and the Calif of Jerusalem? went and stayed in Berlin being a close ally to Hitler.       

Tony Price ● 4761d

Andy"A bit of local history that you might find interesting is that the reason so many Indians, including Muslims, originally settled in West London is that they were invited back by their British friends and comrades in arms to a country rebuilding and in real need of their skills."Lol are you kidding me?! I think your confused silly man, Britain invited Indian Sikhs, which is why southall has so many including gurdwara's. And since Somalians and pakistanis Muslims have been pushing their way in, the Sikhs are no longer happy and from what I know tension is building.Please get your facts straight next time instead of trying to sneak the word muslim into any apparent history you think is right.By the way andy, what is your real name? I got a feeling your really an Abdul or Hussein.

Aaron Shaw ● 4761d

Whilst all the historical information is interesting and enlightening,it is more important to concentrate on the situation as it is today and protect our future. The last dozen years alone have given us enough insight as to the capabilities and missions of these people and the lengths they are prepared to go to in order to achieve their ends.We have to be proactive in keeping them from succeeding in their stated mission to take over the world.....they cannot be allowed to accomplish this here....

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

more detail *F*or those that care:(of course!  :-) )

Tony Colliver ● 4761d

Even more detail or those that care:    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_I    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II

Tony Colliver ● 4761d

'I don't know the situation in WW1  but in WW11 the Muslims were well and truly on the side of Hitler, joining with him to defeat the British. Bearing in mind the antics of Lawrence of Arabia to win over the Arabs, it would not surprise me if in WW1 they were  " pro-German " ?'In WWII the overwhelming majority of Muslims would have been fighting on the side of the allies. There would have been a significant Muslim presence in the forces under General Slim in Burma. About 2.5mn soldiers saw combat from the Indian sub-continent and given that this includes current day Pakistan and Bangladesh that would have included at least a third who were Muslims. Elsewhere Muslims in territories occupied by the Japanese such as Indonesia and Malaya resisted bravely.Hitler had no Muslim allies. He did try to co-opt some Muslim nationalists to his side but had little success. The main supporters of the Axis in India were Hindus and they were a tiny minority who attracted no support.A bit of local history that you might find interesting is that the reason so many Indians, including Muslims, originally settled in West London is that they were invited back by their British friends and comrades in arms to a country rebuilding and in real need of their skills.In the first world war the Germans did have a Muslim ally in the Ottoman Empire. They were Turks and Lawrence of Arabia helped the Arabs rebel against them. Outside this theatre of conflict there would have been a large number of Muslims from the Indian Army and French colonial forces fighting for the allies and very few for the Central Powers.So, hundreds of thousands of Muslims fought on our side in both world wars and tens of thousands died. The British troops who fought beside them would be appalled that within living memory their sacrifice would be disregarded by some. Can I suggest reading some books to get a better understanding of your own country's history?

Andy Jones ● 4761d

Now this is where I am going to show my ignorance of history, but can it really be said that the Arab nations (as a proxy for Islam in the middle east) were on either side?Certainly they were not on Hitler's side in WWII as far as I can gather. A quick check of this page:    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powersdetails a long list of countries - some of which are quite surprising, but none of which are Arab.I haven't read the page in detail, and, as I say, I am no historian, but I do take an interest, and I have never heard it mentioned before.It seems to me that Islamic states may as well have not existed for all the relevance they had to the western powers and the two world wars.In effect, they were each individually invisible until oil was discovered on their territory and, with the exception of Saudi Arabia, this was often post WWII anyway.This is an interesting list as well:    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world#Religion_and_stateI do not think that arguing with the Nazis and the Italians whilst on the territory of various Muslim states in North Africa and the like necessarily implies that the indigenous population were against us does it?  In fact, given the nature of imperial occupation, I would have thought that the reverse is more likely to be true.Happy (delighted even as this is an area that I am very weak on) to be shown the error of my thinking.

Tony Colliver ● 4761d

Not surprising and don't be under any illusion that they would be on our side in any conflict.It is beyond me that these people are able to live here at all...they are a huge danger and liability and need to be kept under strict scrutiny ...

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

Re    which side you were on in the two world wars           xxxxxxxxxxxxxx I don't know the situation in WW1  but in WW11 the Muslims were well and truly on the side of Hitler, joining with him to defeat the British. Bearing in mind the antics of Lawrence of Arabia to win over the Arabs, it would not surprise me if in WW1 they were  " pro-German " ?

Tony Price ● 4761d

"You are aware that this is exactly the same for the Anglican and Catholic Churches? "Total rubbish. There is NO requirement for anything other than a decree absolute to enable one to remarry in the Anglican church (by which I assume you mean the Church of England)and there hasn't been since 2002. Please don't tarnish the CofE with the same brush as Sharia and Beit Din.Before you ask, the CofE laws 'The Canon Laws' actually form art of the law of the land and are not parallel jurisdictions.The CofE leaves the decision whether to remarry divorced people to individual clergy as some hold marriage vows sacred and unbreakable/ However with 16,000 parishes you will always find someone who will remarry divorcees.

Nigel Brooks ● 4761d

Re  ? The rules for marriage as a religious sacrament and marriage as a contract are always going to be different.             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I am dying to read about the first  same sex divorce in a Sharia Court!  P S. New Zealand has just today become the 13th country to pass that legislation.

Tony Price ● 4761d

'I want this whole extreme muslim takeover to stop now. We did not fight two world wars to have Muslims take away who we are! And what we fought for them many years ago.'Can you clarify which side you were on in the two world wars you fought in?

Andy Jones ● 4761d

'But the Beth Din do not recognise these decrees anyway and a Get has to be obtained before the couple are divorced in Jewish Law. How is this not a parallel system?'You are aware that this is exactly the same for the Anglican and Catholic Churches? The rules for marriage as a religious sacrament and marriage as a contract are always going to be different. We have had parallel systems in this country for a century at least.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

Re  agree to the matter being settled in a Sharia or Beth Din court.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxx  there must be a helluva lot of divorces in the Muslim community ( and  much more  pre-divorce angst as not all disagreements end in separation ) as I am sure it was mentioned in a recent TV programme there are 280 known Sharia Courts in the UK.

Tony Price ● 4761d

What the Beth Din and Sharia courts can't do is issue Decree Nisi and Decree Absolute".But the Beth Din do not recognise these decrees anyway and a Get has to be obtained before the couple are divorced in Jewish Law. How is this not a parallel system?

Nigel Brooks ● 4761d

You have completely misunderstood the issue. There is no law to say that an estate or a divorce cannot be settled in any way that is acceptable to all parties concerned. The way these courts operate is entirely in keeping with the spirit of British Common law which seeks to encourage disputants to settle matters themselves. You are not being dictated to as if you were to divorce you would have to agree to the matter being settled in a Sharia or Beth Din court.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

'Mr Justice Baker agreed the couple, who are devout Orthodox Jews, could use the Beth Din to decide issues such as the financial settlement, the status of the marriage and the care of their two children.'This is nothing new and is exactly what I said previously. The settlement is distinct from the legal fact of a divorce. I'm sorry if I didn't express myself plainly enough for you. What the Beth Din and Sharia courts can't do is issue Decree Nisi and Decree Absolute.There is no 'law of the land' that says the terms of a divorce have to be decided in a court. In fact most people would agree that is the worst place for it.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

Regardless of whatever your religion/beliefs/culture etc..etc...YOU LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY SO YOU MUST ABIDE BY BRITISH LAW...IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO BACK TO WHEREVER YOU CAN LIVE BY YOUR OWN LAWS.All this is the price we pay for allowing people to come here then dictate to us. It is abhorrent to me that we should have any other courts besides our own.GET THE MESSAGE....THIS IS NOT AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY...DEAL WITH IT AND FOLLOW OUR LAWS..END OF...

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

I and many other people to afraid to admit it, want the Muslims to stop all there crap! If you want to live in Britain then follow our rules and laws.Simple.It annoys me when schools have to have halal food, please how stupid is that. You don't like our meat then jump on a plane back to your country who you so love you ran to. Britain from.I want this whole extreme muslim takeover to stop now. We did not fight two world wars to have Muslims take away who we are! And what we fought for them many years ago.

Aaron Shaw ● 4761d

" A religious court can't dissolve a marriage legally in this country"Oh yes it can. The High Court recognised a Beth Din divorce settlement only a couple of months ago.Mr Justice Baker agreed the couple, who are devout Orthodox Jews, could use the Beth Din to decide issues such as the financial settlement, the status of the marriage and the care of their two children.This is the thin end of a very dangerous wedge where a religious court's decision is taken as equally valid as that of the 'law of the land'.My objection, I stress again, is not on religious grounds but the danger of having parallel legal systems open to abuse as much as use.

Nigel Brooks ● 4761d

Perhaps if you reread what I have written more carefully you would be less confused. What we are talking about here with regards to divorce is two people agreeing the terms of separation. You are probably right that a relatively small proportion of Muslims getting divorced use a Sharia court. This will probably mainly due to the fact that marriage splits are generally acrimonious and compromise will be at a premium so that divorcing Muslims and Jews probably end up in an expensive legal battle almost as much of the rest of us. Try looking at it as a form of arbitration. Sensible divorcing couples use this method to settle things. Sharia courts are just the Muslim way of doing this. This is not taking the place of the administration of secular laws. If you think that you haven't really understood what is going on here.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

You are right which is why it should all stop. If Muslims want to live in this country and enjoy the benefits and freedoms not afforded to them in their own lands, they should assimilate into British life and not expect to 'take over' which is their stated mission. We need to recognize the potential danger of accommodating further the demands of this section of society.If they refuse to accept British society, they should be assisted out of the country  and not dictate to us as to what we should do for them....

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

Re this as anything other than a good thing.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxOK, so you  would like the import of Sharia in the UK. But as a good thing, I assume every Muslim  woman in divorce situation elects to use the Sharia Courts. I doubt it somehow  due to their diminuation within that religion, which in this day and age and Western world should have no place in administration of  secular laws and situations. In my opinion of course, diametrically opposed to yours.

Tony Price ● 4761d

Re  not some archaic religious 'convenience'.               xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    by Judaic law a man could  divorce his wife ( any one of several )  by saying 3 times " I divorce you "  and off she had to go, bag and baggage without any guaranteed compensation. I read  by someone who did  tremendous  investigation into Jesus and HIS  record that the only departure HE  had from HIS own religion of Judaism was on that matter, the divorce of women, which HE thought as unfair. What the historic situation was in Islam I do not know but I doubt if any better, bearing in mind the diminuation of women in that religion, hence their revolt against Sharia. There have been some very vociferous adveresly affected women who have taken up the cudgels against their religion, one an Egyptian, a Somali now in America via Holland, and an Italian to name but a few. Jews have become more modernised due to long time in the Diaspora.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Price ● 4761d

You are confusing a the actual divorce with the terms of the divorce. A religious court can't dissolve a marriage legally in this country, everyone has to go through the same process for a marriage to be over in the eyes of the law but they can settle issues like the division of assets, access and care of children. They may be able to dissolve a marriage in the eyes of their religion but that means nothing in law. I think you've missed the whole point about this. If you were to get divorced and sat down with your ex-wife to decide how to settle your affairs and agreed to have that arbitrated by a legal expert, which most sensible people try and do, you are essentially doing the same thing as Jews and Muslims are doing. The only difference is that their legal experts would be taking into account their mutually shared beliefs. No laws or statutes are being ignored or broken. Nobody is harmed. If you are not happy with the process you aren't legally obliged to participate. It is hard to understand why anybody would see this as anything other than a good thing.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

NO MORE MOSQUES, NO MORE MUSLIM SCHOOLS, NO SHARIAH...TOO MANY7 ALREADY...THIS IS NOT AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY,TIME TO PULL THE PLUG.......

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

I maintain that there is no place for any parallel legal system, particularly one which displays such inequality.Do take some time to research both Sharia and Beth Din (or Beit Din) courts approach to divorce.Did you know, as example, that a Beit Din divorce, should it, in an unlikely occurrence, grant an Orthodox Jewish woman a divorce, can be overturned in the Civil courts. The same 'civil redress' applies to Sharia divorces.So if you are a man, you keep going to different courts until you get the decision that you want.That is simply wrong and one reason that I maintain that all citizens of a country should be solely bound by the laws and statutes of that country not some archaic religious 'convenience'.

Nigel Brooks ● 4761d

Agree totally.There shoul be a ban on any further provision of Muslim mosques and schools which indoctrinate and teach children how to hate the West and westerners/non muslims. We don't want them .....

Marie OConnell ● 4761d

If I am arguing in favour of anything it is the pragmatism of British common law which gives greater flexibility to people to sort out their own disputes rather than the more rigorously codified legal systems of other countries. If intimidation was to take place to make someone agree to accept their case was heard by a Sharia court that would be a criminal offence. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but Sharia courts wouldn't be the reason for the intimidation. If one party was going to intimidate someone into accepting a resolution they didn't want they would do it whether or not there were Sharia courts. As I understand it that in many instances a woman has more rights under sharia law than British divorce law so it may actually be the woman who wants to use Islamic courts to handle a divorce.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

Re  if they haven't consented to recognise the court prior           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I think you live in a dream world re  the perfection of the Islamic way of life and Sharia Courts. One could ask  why they exist at all and I just can't imagine any female Muslim arguing against her husband or family, whether that be before during or after any judgement, albeit that by an amateur. Your response overlooks all the other aspects of Sharia  Law. Why do so many come to the West, what do they come for, what are they getting away from and why do females internationally rage against their role in Islamic society. That you are so much in favour , I assume despite your name, you have adopted the Islamic religion/way of life?. Most of the Muslims I know do not regualarly attend a mosque, and most not at all. It pleases me when I see persons who are obviously Muslim when shopping in a supermarket, take meat for example which is not halal.

Tony Price ● 4761d

One of the virtues of British common law is that it recognises the ability of two parties to come together and reach a binding agreement. This doesn't need to be a religious forum - if you had a legal issue and you and the counterparty agreed to some form of binding arbitration then that work in exactly the same way. As far as the civil justice system goes it is not about laws and statutes being enforced but the avoidance of disputes and the successful resolution if they occur. Allowing people to settle disputes in accordance with their own culture is entirely in keeping with the spirit of British common law. What exactly would be achieved by banning these courts? The two parties would be forced to settle a family matter in a way which was likely to be unsatisfactory for both parties and would inevitably be more costly and complex particularly of assets of an estate were in more than one country.

Andy Jones ● 4761d

"Nobody is legally obliged to accept the judgement of a sharia court if they haven't consented to recognise the court prior to the judgement."That said I do not see why any religious community should be allowed to establish a parallel judicial system. This applies to Sharia or Beth Din courts equally.While our own legal system may not be perfect (in some cases far from perfect) it is axiomatic that by settling in a country you agree to abide by its laws and statutes. Just because they do not meet your specific cultural or religious needs is not reason to allow 'external' courts.

Nigel Brooks ● 4761d

Thanks Andy for this clear explanation of how Sharia courts operate in the UK and of their actual functions. A lot of misconceptions seem to be voiced on these topics. Thanks again.

Gerry Tan ● 4762d

You have a totally incorrect understanding of the role of sharia courts in the UK.Like Jewish courts they are recognised under British common law as places where two parties can reach mutually binding agreements in civil matters. This simplifies the resolution of cases where two jurisdictions might come into play e.g. if the deceased has assets in a foreign country. These courts exclusively decide family matters like the estates of the deceased and divorce. They have nothing to do with criminal law or chopping off feet, honour killings and female genital mutilation.The idea that sharia courts could ever be 'imposed' on the UK is a nonsense. They are not even used currently by a majority of Muslims. For a judgment to take place both parties have to agree to recognise the court. There has been some press coverage recently that some Muslims have said they felt pressured by their families to accept a judgement by a sharia court in a divorce case. This isn't necessarily because sharia la unfavourable to women, in fact in most cases if a divorce is resolved by these courts the woman is likely to do better. Nobody is legally obliged to accept the judgement of a sharia court if they haven't consented to recognise the court prior to the judgement. I am not a member of the Islamic Parliament of Britain.

Andy Jones ● 4762d

Re Is there a Mosque in Acton        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I would have thought there is more than one. Is there not one in Shepherds Bush market, if not I seem to recall the mention of one, either requested or planned?.

Tony Price ● 4762d

Is there a Mosque in Acton as well then?

Jaz Brown ● 4762d

my last message was directed at Andy by the way.

Aaron Shaw ● 4762d

You clearly do not care what happens in our country, that is fine but do not tell me or expect others not to care. And I live in Acton (West Acton the nicest part which is turning bad as well) and the mosque has made a big impact in the communities, and British people in Acton feel more and more isolated from there area and from what says they have now(partly because of them silly Labour though).

Aaron Shaw ● 4762d

Re  directly contradictory this is highly unlikely.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx oh yeah, that's why I suppose hundreds of Sharia Courts have been set up in the UK. And tell the victims of honour killings, female  sexual mutilation, forced marriages, divorce settlements re their Human Rights being the paramount consideration. I appreciate not all those practices are directly  the result of Sharia law but the scenario is set. And I appreciate beheadings, stoning to death of persons having sex outside marriage, hand and feet chopped off are not necessarily carried out in this country as they are  elsewhere due to the requirements of Sharia Law but the banning of the selling  or consumption of alcohol, or certain foods are and attempts have been made to impliment them here. You  and your family live by Sharia if you want, but not most us. The prevalence now of the cruel method of animal slaughter is bad enough, thank you.  Btw, are you a member of the Islamic Parliament of Britain?

Tony Price ● 4762d

Re Source?            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    3X, News media. Not up to me ( or anyone else ) to educate you

Tony Price ● 4762d

'you do not need "official" sources and stats to tell you what is going on in Britain'I'd rather official statistics than made up ones'grow a brain and stop waiting on reports that are false and see the real picture as you wake up and walk down the street to work every day'Sound advice which you would do well to follow.'I feel this mosque will be the end to West Ealing and Ealing borough proud community as a whole if and once it is built'Why? The existing one has not brought an end to the community neither has the one in Acton. I still come across people who aren't even aware it is there. Of those that are views range between indifference to welcome.'They will have their foundation and then their laws will apply WHICH the EU will support for human rights reasons'As sharia and EU human rights laws are in many cases directly contradictory this is highly unlikely.

Andy Jones ● 4762d

well said Tony Price! why can't people see what is going on here.. you do not need "official" sources and stats to tell you what is going on in Britain, grow a brain and stop waiting on reports that are false and see the real picture as you wake up and walk down the street to work every day.I feel this mosque will be the end to West Ealing and Ealing borough proud community as a whole if and once it is built. They will have their foundation and then their laws will apply WHICH the EU will support for human rights reasons. I will say I told you so in 5 years time.

Aaron Shaw ● 4762d

'T. Hamlets I think it is now has 30% population from Pakistan and Bangladesh, and that has been self declared as an Islamic Borough, with all the attempted restrictions placed on non Muslims'Source?'By 2030 there will be enough Muslims in this country to vote in an Islamic government nationally'Really? 'Why do you think Holland  pushed out most of their persons from a sub-saharan country a few years back ( who then  came to this country, Leicester  and London ) and why Sweden is embarking on the same course?.'Source?

Andy Jones ● 4762d

Re cant understand why/how it has been given permission to be built.             xxxxxxxxxxxxx how about fear of being regarded as racist and to hell with the consequences. People must get used to the idea the march of Islam is well and truly here. Halal shops now abound all over the place. There was a News clip last night on TV re the latest 4 would be bombers from Luton. Certainly no longer the appearance of an English town, and many parts of London are going the same way. T. Hamlets I think it is now has 30% population from Pakistan and Bangladesh, and that has been self declared as an Islamic Borough, with all the attempted restrictions placed on non Muslims. Get used to the idea " we " are on the way out, and our way of life with it. By 2030 there will be enough Muslims in this country to vote in an Islamic government nationally. I may well have " gone  " by then but all those who have screamed racist  to persons like myself will have reason to scratch their heads and ponder. Why do you think Holland  pushed out most of their persons from a sub-saharan country a few years back ( who then  came to this country, Leicester  and London ) and why Sweden is embarking on the same course?.

Tony Price ● 4762d

it is a parking issue

George Knox ● 4762d

Ooops, a misspelling - it should be "hatred" - sorry!

Gerry Tan ● 4762d

I don't mind mosques being built. In fact, I don't mind churches, synagogues, chapels or any buildings for prayers. What I do not want is hated to be preached. Oh, and also build enough parking spaces to satisfy everyone.

Gerry Tan ● 4763d

'On ealing gazette, it says they will be funded by "various sources". 'So does that constitute an admission on your part that the building is not tax payer funded?Your paranoia appears to be groundless. Posts don't seem to be removed from this forum neither on the grounds of factual inaccuracy or being critical of a particular religion. Did you not consider posting again or is the point that you relish the idea of being a free speech martyr?

Andy Jones ● 4763d

Just to clear things up, I posted on both forums after seeing my forum "disappear from this one". On ealing gazette, it says they will be funded by "various sources".

Aaron Shaw ● 4763d

I was under the impression the building in west ealing was actually an islamic center, not a mosque, I dont know if there is any difference? The big difference is the fact that it now holds 1,000 and the mosque will hold 3,000 with a grand total of 13 parking spaces. I cant understand why/how it has been given permission to be built.

Marie Shelny ● 4763d

Just read your Acton post. There is already a Mosque in West Ealing, it has been there for years.

Jaz Brown ● 4763d

You are getting confused. There are two forums one for Ealing and one for Acton. You made your post about the mosque on the Acton forum and it hasn't been removed. If you take some time to read this forum you will see your comments were relatively uncontentious compared to what has been posted here previously. There also appears to be no evidence for your claim that the mosque will be receiving tax payer funding. The fact that the Council has given planning permission doesn't mean they are paying for it.

Andy Jones ● 4763d

Re  where is my right to free speech!         xxxxxxxxxxxI did not see your post but it is about time you realise  there are certain  " things " yo