Forum Topic

Death of Margaret Thatcher

Feels strange for those of us who hit our prime in the 80s. I started my first proper (i.e. post-university) job the week she came to power. Will we all remember where we were when we heard the news?

Susan Kelly ● 4741d164 Comments

Re  one thought of Margaret Thatcher          xxxxxxxxxx a woman with guts conviction and apparently, great kindness. I found most of her mannerisms  infuriorating, the way she walked,deportment, held her head, when speaking in emphasis, but for all that, the very person the country needed at that time.

Tony Price ● 4730d

Someone wrote in The Mail today that those who were celebrating Margaret Thatcher's death reminded them of the Palistinians celebrating in the streets after 9/11.It is sad that some people turned out to protest, one woman even brought a child along, what message does that give to the child?No respect whatever one thought of Margaret Thatcher during her time in office.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4731d

So right. Stems from lack of moral compass, lack of stable family life, lack of work ethic and general deterioration of education in the way people should live and provide for themsellves. Doesn't help that government props them up with a system that encourages the feckless to depend on handouts instead of getting out to work.

Marie OConnell ● 4731d

She's lived in America all her life, I think. I think that she comes from Texas so her accent is surprisingly soft.Sir Mark is banned from the US after his attempted coup in Africa after which the first wife dumped him.

Susan Kelly ● 4731d

Re  Amanda Thatcher's American accent has to be discussed            xxxxxxxxxxx probably others like myself were surprised re her accent, not knowing  she is anything other than English, in and of England. Her American accent is not very strong but certainly noticeable. A lot of American females' accents are so strong and nasaly that I can't listen to them for very long, but she is nowhere  in that brigade.

Tony Price ● 4731d

Can't understand why Amanda Thatcher's American accent has to be discussed. She is American ....so your point is ????She probably has dual nationality...

Marie OConnell ● 4731d

Re  She certainly  lives and studies in the USA.          xxxxxxxxxxxx that explains it, thanks. ( and to have developed  an accent, must have been there for some while? )

Tony Price ● 4731d

"yes, agreed and with a noticeable American accent?"/She is, I believe, an American citizen like her mother. She certainly  lives and studies in the USA.

Nigel Brooks ● 4731d

Re  ...she was very professional and confident        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  yes, agreed and with a noticeable American accent? Plus I think the Queen is remarkable, 84 I think she is, walks without any aid and stands for long spells. Same goes for the Duke. Neither of them  wear glasses  for ordinary seeing. The country will miss either of them when they go. I hope she stays as  the monarch until  her " time " comes.

Tony Price ● 4731d

Yes, Amanda Thatcher has tremendous poise for a girl of 19.

Susan Kelly ● 4731d

Yes I was a bit worried about the horses too. The poor guys carrying the coffin had a hard job...thought it would fall going up and down the steps at St.Pauls.They were sweating and the Chelsea pensioners must have been tired standing so long. Amanda Thatcher did a magnificent job with her reading...she was very professional and confident.Very nice send off and well reported... thanks BBC.

Marie OConnell ● 4731d

You are right...it was just about 5 years later and I helped her move so know the facts.In any event it was wrong on every level and the properties were not Mrs. Thatchers to give away.

Marie OConnell ● 4731d

Goodness, those horses behaved badly, especially the one at the back who kept trying to bite his companion. If those are their 'highly trained' horses, I'd hate to see the untrained ones.Otherwise, apart from David Cameron wandering round snogging all the women, it was a good do. I was starting to wonder if he'd try to kiss the Queen on both cheeks when she arrived.

Susan Kelly ● 4731d

"I knew someone who 'bought' a council house for 47.000 then sold it shortly afterwards for 250.000."Marie, it was against the rules to sell within five years. If you did so then you had to repay your discount. I suspect your friend is just boasting (i.e. lying).

Susan Kelly ● 4731d

Re  council property away from people who needed homes.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I agree. Public housing  belongs to the community and for whose benefit it should be used but you can't blame those who took advantage of the chance to buy. There should have been  a time limit during which any such property could not be sold on.

Tony Price ● 4732d

I have friends who are eternally greatful to Margaret Thatcher without whom they would probably still be living in a tiny council flat.I would prefer 100 Margaret Thatchers to some of the leaders we had since.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4732d

She also made a huge error with the 'right to buy' I knew someone who 'bought' a council house for 47.000 then sold it shortly afterwards for 250.000.Totally unfair as well as taking council property away from people who needed homes.

Marie OConnell ● 4732d

Ah yes, fair point - I had forgotten about that.

Tony Colliver ● 4732d

Re  that the problem is postal voting        xxxxxxxxxxx      sorry Tony, what I was referring to in that context is the fraudulent voting which seems to be practiced by persons of a certain ethnicity, MANY  supposed voters from single adresses etc.

Tony Price ● 4733d

Exactly.It's terrifying.

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

I do not think that the problem is postal voting or indeed non-indigs in general.It seems to me that their voting preferences are as evenly (or unevenly) spread as the rest of us.In fact, amongst the business community I (with little in the way of evidence apart from my own experience) would imagine that they are more biased to the right than the left.  And there are a relatively high percentage of businesspeople amongst the non-indig communities.

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

Unfortunately, I am extremely pessimistic that this simple measure will be anywhere near enough.

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

Re  so what choice do the voters have?            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx simple, get rid of Gideon. The only hope is the voters will see our Ed would be even worse, not only on the national stage but  more so on the international one?. Could well be a right Balls up!.

Tony Price ● 4733d

Re  public will choose the party which promises them the most,            xxxxxxxxxxxxx I have the horrible feeling you ain't far wrong there, Jean. And on a local basis as well as national, and when  the indigs are no longer in control  locally which will happen " naturally ", where will  the indigs stand and fare?. Look at some of  Southall's recent " developments " to gain some idea.

Tony Price ● 4733d

Re  uninformed people voting for ever more spending         xxxxxxxxx yep, and don't forget N L  brought 3 million in just for that purpose. And 3 million can make a lot of difference. And being of foreign origin, it is possible they don't need to worry too much about this country's future prosperity as they have another to go back to. It may not be terrorist activity  that brings us down. The time will come when we may need a strong  nationally minded autocratic government which will claw  back what has been taken/given away of this country?.

Tony Price ● 4733d

I agree Susan, its good that no Income Tax will be paid on one's first £10k of earnings. But I think we and the nation borrow too much money.  Better to save it first, then spend it.

Gerry Tan ● 4733d

It's interesting to note that more and more people are being taken out of taxation altogether by the raising of the personal allowance to 10k. This is being hailed as a great leap forward, but it worries me that millions vote for spending while making no contribution towards it. Why wouldn't they vote for the party that promises them the most bread and circuses?

Susan Kelly ● 4733d

Re  sad indictment of the electorate               xxxxxxxxxxxxxx let's be quite honest and say the rules and regulations we have  enoyed in this country were designed and implimented because of the nature, honesty and sense of fair play of the traditional British people. We have had awful reports in recent years for example of fraudulent  postal voting, and we all know the " communities " represented in that abuse. The turning of blind eyes to the construction of  beds in sheds.  Coupled with the fact many if not most who have immigrated to this country in recent years is not because they like us, or our ways etc, but for what they can get. Sadly that is human nature , so such handouts should have been restricted to indigenous citizens of 10 years  contribution to the State's coffers. I M O, the UK is a ticking time bomb.

Tony Price ● 4733d

Re  following like sheep genes' before you get a ballot paper.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  you're showing signs Nigel!. I have often thought  before a  person is allowed to vote, they should pass some form of " intelligence " test. And with the extent now of the Welfare State,  those not in gainful employment for say 6  months or more should not be allowed to vote, plus there should be some form of debarrment from voting for those on Welfare over a certain amount. The West is slowly sinking into a quagmire of welfare bens, the cost of and the effects of, so the temptation should be removed of voting for the Party which offers the most in Welfare benefits. I fully expect these thoughts will bring some virulent  comments, I hope so!.

Tony Price ● 4733d

And it doesn't look like the Argies are actually going to get their act together and help out with a timely invasion this time around either...

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

Yep, and they'll do it again flush with a new "mandate" from the sheeple.

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

I fear that the voting public will choose the party which promises them the most, regardless of whether or not they can deliver.No-one likes austerity but that is what we face for some considerable time unless we would prefer the country to go bankrupt.When Nu Labour were in power all they seemed to do was borrow more and more and to hell with the consequences.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4733d

We've been spoilt for far too long. We don't want to listen to anyone who tells us that things are going to be tough from now on. We prefer to vote for someone who promises champagne and caviar for all, even though we know in our hearts that there's no money to pay for it.I say 'we'...

Susan Kelly ● 4733d

'The Truth? You can't handle the truth'Would that we could and we wouldn't have let a 'few good men' get us into this bloody mess.

Nigel Brooks ● 4733d

"No politician can tell the truth, without losing at the ballot box."I completely agree with this sentiment but what a terrifically sad indictment of the electorate it is that people are so completely unable to accept the truth.I am convinced that they are so used to non-stop lies that they are convinced that these lies are the true reality and react very badly when anybody threatens to disturb their cosy delusional state.

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

No politician can tell the truth, without losing at the ballot box. At least Cameron & co are trying to make people understand how dire the public finances are, although they do come across as too young and green to cope.

Susan Kelly ● 4733d

I will agree with you that it is not an easy choice to have to make.In fact, my overall perspective on politicians is of the "a plague on all their houses" flavour.But if the masses choose Ed and his mates anybody that owns property is going to be in for a 1970's style baptism of fire and I worry that many voters are not going to remember that far back - even if they were capable of thinking clearly on the subject and could be bothered to engage their brains anyway.I sometimes think that voters actually believe politicians when they say they can fix things when in reality it seems to me that at best what they do is to not screw things up anymore than they already are.  In practice they usually can't resist the urge to fiddle (a word I use in place of the far more Anglo Saxon ones that I wanted to use!) and it always comes at massive cost to the electorate.--------------------------------Agree, though I think Ed and chums are a bit more centre right than their 70s counterparts.Both main parties are unelectable imo, only interested in themselves and (as uttered a few years back in the Commons)a bunch of feckless mendicants......

Jeremy Hanson ● 4733d

I will agree with you that it is not an easy choice to have to make.In fact, my overall perspective on politicians is of the "a plague on all their houses" flavour.But if the masses choose Ed and his mates anybody that owns property is going to be in for a 1970's style baptism of fire and I worry that many voters are not going to remember that far back - even if they were capable of thinking clearly on the subject and could be bothered to engage their brains anyway.I sometimes think that voters actually believe politicians when they say they can fix things when in reality it seems to me that at best what they do is to not screw things up anymore than they already are.  In practice they usually can't resist the urge to fiddle (a word I use in place of the far more Anglo Saxon ones that I wanted to use!) and it always comes at massive cost to the electorate.

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

I know, but *this* time when the masses vote for anything but the "hated tories" and thus put labour back in interest rates will rocket.They will all be very very sorry but it will be too late.-----------------------------It is, and always has been, the lesser of two evils.... Dave and Gideon are proving themselves largely incompetent, so what choice do the voters have?

Jeremy Hanson ● 4733d

I am no snob, but the thought that a government, of whatever persuasion, is largely elected by the mandate of Sun and Mirror readers fills me with dread.Perhaps there should be a basic test for absence of 'blindly following like sheep genes' before you get a ballot paper.

Nigel Brooks ● 4733d

I know, but *this* time when the masses vote for anything but the "hated tories" and thus put labour back in interest rates will rocket.They will all be very very sorry but it will be too late.

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

The prospect of millions of uninformed people voting-------------------------------Happens every time, Tony........

Jeremy Hanson ● 4733d

They may very well be disenchanted, but what is the viable alternative - that is what I want to know?The prospect of millions of uninformed people voting for ever more spending fills me with absolute horror!

Tony Colliver ● 4733d

Re  Labour or ultimately a Labour led Coalition Government.          xxxxxxxxxxxx      sadly you  may well be right, but the country  could not afford the high interest rates the international  market would require on government bonds/borrowing etc. There are so many now receiving welfare benefits that they will vote for whichever Party promises the most and therein lay the final collapse of the UK. With the debt slung round our necks, thanks to the previous Labour admin the borrowing costs will be cripling with precious little chance of national prosperity. Because of welfare bens etc, the West, other than America  will never be able to effectively compete with the emerging economies.  Get your money out of sterling and UK banks, but not into Euros as the prospects for that are no good either.

Tony Price ● 4734d

Unless the Coalition Government pulls lots of rabbits out of hats in 2014, many people will be disenchanted with austerity and will vote for a change in 2015. The only viable alternative in 2015 will be Labour or ultimately a Labour led Coalition Government.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4734d

JazI read net figures to be all immigrants.The simple point is that the net figures increased under the last administration at an unprecedented higher rate than previously. The complex points are what impact this has had. TP implied housing was more difficult to come by due to a higher population. It seems hard to disprove that point. If you hunt around the DWP website you will find research publications which identify this perception.If you accept Labour mismanaged the issue, why would you trust them to improve the situation in the future?

George Knox ● 4734d

      I have just read this on another Message Board about a well known person who has criticised Maggie's funeral arrangements and found it so funny :-      " coming from the fat waste of space who got paid for wrecking everything he touched thats rich, he even failed at bulemia, track record asault and deliberately parking in disabled space setting up regional councils at the cost of 5Om that no ne wanted typical bird brained comment from the arch burk ,when his turn comes fire him from a cannon on beachy head and good riddence"

Tony Price ● 4734d

I'm interested to see that Baroness Thatcher requested some Eliot, including one of my favourite quotations:We shall not cease from explorationAnd the end of all our exploringWill be to arrive where we startedAnd know the place for the first time.She had unexpected tastes sometimes. I remember how taken aback I was when she said that Munch's The Scream was her favourite painting. I would have expected her to choose something classical and innocuous like a Turner seascape (very British). What was hidden inside her apparently prosaic mind, I wonder?

Susan Kelly ● 4735d

You are getting confused with Economic migrants and asylum seekers. There is a big difference. What point are you trying to make? We all know that there was a massive influx of workers from the Eastern European countries from 2005 onwards. This is now leveling out. We also know Labour have acknowledged that they should have put tighter controls then. What migration are you talking about about?

Jaz Brown ● 4735d

She epitomises what I call "Daily mail Radio" - aka The Jeremy Vine Show on Radio 2.(Time was when Jeremy Vine was a serious journalist.  Now all he does is "tabloid" radio rubbish.  :-( )

Tony Colliver ● 4736d

Yes, brilliant.  :-)

Tony Colliver ● 4736d

They hardly ever add anything to a discussion, a bit like the typed equivalent of listening to Vanessa Feltz.------------------------------Funniest thing I've read on these boards!!well done

Jeremy Hanson ● 4736d

I agree Keith.Also - may I make a personal plea Asha that you stop copying and dumping whole Daily Mail articles into posts?  They hardly ever add anything to a discussion, a bit like the typed equivalent of listening to Vanessa Feltz.The weblink / URL is more than sufficient for anyone who likes to see Mail articles.ThanksPhil

Phil Kay ● 4736d

Strangely I find it hard to give a monkey's what she says or about anything on whatever format.I wish she would take her own advice and shut up.About everything that is,not just this.

Keith Iddon ● 4736d

Geri Halliwell today described herself as 'spineless' and 'weak' for deleting a tweet that paid tribute to Baroness Thatcher when she died.The Spice Girl angered fans on Monday by writing: 'Thinking of our 1st Lady of girl power, Margaret Thatcher, a grocer’s daughter who taught me anything is possible…x’.A backlash caused her to delete the message and apologise, but today Ms Halliwell said she regretted it and should have shown the courage the Iron Lady had in her political career.'I realise that I do admire a woman, whether she is right or wrong, regardless of her opinions. She had the courage to stand by her convictions. Not like me. I look at my behaviour, which exposed how weak I was under fire, not like Margaret Thatcher. Rest in peace,' she wrote on her blog.'I was so afraid of upsetting people, and not being liked for saying something that was not to everyone’s taste.'When I’m scared, my natural state is to hide and run for cover'.Geri was attacked online this week, with one disgruntled Twitter user writing: 'So Geri Halliwell tweeted about the 'first Lady of girl power' and then deleted it after getting some stick? Girl power indeed. #thatcher.'The 40-year-old then deleted the tweet, and wrote: 'I'm sorry if I offended u. X' Explaining her decision she wrote today: 'I was so confused and overwhelmed by some of the feedback I received that I took my tweet down and for that I was called spineless.'I realised the best thing to do was to shut up and really get honest with myself. What I hated the most was that I took a tweet down. I had wavered and was full of self-doubt.'I suddenly thought given the adverse reaction, did I even really know enough about Margaret Thatcher?  Was I just trying to be relevant? She had obviously upset a lot of people.'Geri has involved herself in politics ever since her rise to fame.Before Tony Blair swept to power in 1997 she said: 'I saw a lot of what Mrs Thatcher did. She was definitely the original Spice Girl rising from the greengrocer's daughter to Prime Minister.'A year earlier she said Blair was 'not a safe pair of hands for the economy'.DJ and presenter Lauren Laverne later called her 'Tory scum', but the Spice Girl maintained that Thatcher was an inspiration.But in 2001 she switched to New Labour and even appeared in one of the party's election broadcasts.Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308007/The-lady-IS-turning-Geri-Halliwells-regret-taking-RIP-Thatcher-tweet-face-abuse-admits-lacking-PMs-courage.html#ixzz2QGUVhsh9 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Asha Smith ● 4736d

The usual story of someone with no sense of proportion making a fool of himself on twitter and ruining his own life in the process. Tried to use an anonymous account but too thick to cover his tracks effectively.

Susan Kelly ● 4736d

Re  The 52-year-old Scotland Yard officer          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx bluddy 'ell. How on earth did he get to that age in the Met. before being sussed. And presumably there must have been others around him with similar views or surely they would have " shopped " him?

Tony Price ● 4736d

I don’t think the paper mentioned in post 11/04/13 20:31:00 by JB is very helpful. There has been a string of immigration law changes which were not mentioned. Despite these, are there enough people to enforce the law; and is the law still not joined up enough to make the changes effective?For instance if an employer is found to have an illegal immigrant how easy is to get the police to arrest said person, investigate, then hand over to the UKBA in a way that person cannot scarper, and for the UKBA to remove said character, unless there is a sound defence?Americans finger print and face scan us. Why not here?And what does any country do if the intended receiving country refuses a removee entry?The other reason why the paper is not helpful is that it avoids, like some other posters, putting the argument in context.I wanted to know the increase in net immigration figures before and since Labour took power. So I did TP’s homework for him!http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19646459What appears as a reliable answer is in this link. It is provided by the ONS. Nothing could be clearer. There were two unprecedented and significant hikes under the last Labour administration. The Coalition struggle to get those figures down. Labour foolishly asked us to rejoice in diversity rather than, as first priority, asked the immigrants to focus on integration so that we could choose to share their diversity. Thanks Labour for crowding us into sleeping on floors again with no proper house building strategy. Thanks for not retraining our dispossessed established communities back into work after the damage inflicted by Mrs Thatcher. Thanks for ignoring that unemployment anyway was too high under ‘gentleman’ Jim Callaghan. Thanks for ignoring Thatcher’s evil deregulation dangers so our country is now broke.  GB turned Prudence into a dirty word.

George Knox ● 4737d

A serving police officer has resigned after being unmasked as a leading figure in the sick hate campaign against Baroness Thatcher, having issued a litany of offensive messages over the internet.Sergeant Jeremy Scott said he hoped the former prime minister’s death at the age of 87 was ‘painful and degrading’.The 52-year-old Scotland Yard officer also suggested the world would be a ‘better place’ if David Cameron, too, were dead.Scotland Yard said today: 'The officer concerned, today submitted his resignation and it was accepted with immediate effect.'Met Commander Allan Gibson added: 'This officer's behaviour was completely unacceptable and it is right that he has resigned.'Meanwhile today another public figure, a Labour Party official, was also in hot water for saying Tony Blair should be buried in the same coffin as Mrs Thatcher.Writing on Twitter, Sgt Scott questioned whether a flypast would ‘bomb’ Lady Thatcher’s coffin and said her passing was ‘87 years too late’.He said: ‘Goodnight Twitter. The world is a better place today now that c*** is dead. Now for Cameron, May and Osborne.’ The comments of the police officer, sworn to uphold the law, mark a new low in the bitter hate campaign ahead of Lady Thatcher’s funeral.Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe had been under growing pressure to suspend the officer last night, but it appears Scott quit before he was sacked.Tory MP Iain Stewart, who represents Sgt Scott’s constituency of Milton Keynes South, said he was ‘absolutely disgusted’ by the comments.He said: ‘I will be writing to Sir Bernard and asking him to investigate this further.’ The Met has shown no mercy to other staff caught abusing social networking sites, with seven sacked in the past five years. A further eight resigned or retired after complaints.A spokesman said: ‘We are aware of comments made by a serving officer on a social networking site. The officer reported this matter to the Directorate of Professional Standards. We are now looking at this. He has not been suspendedRead more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307705/Scotland-Yard-sergeant-Jeremy-Scott-resigns-Margaret-Thatcher-degrading-painful-death-tweets.html#ixzz2QFvcJXSv Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Asha Smith ● 4737d

I hear they are looking for panelists on HIGNFY Steve.Good luck.

Keith Iddon ● 4737d

Handbags at dawn?

Tony Colliver ● 4737d

Exactly!

Tony Colliver ● 4737d

'I was first introduced to the bully-boy style that is hard left politics at university in the late seventies.  Since then I have kept a very careful lookout for them as their central philosophy is if we decide that you are not one of us then we will deny you the right to speak'I, too, recall the 'no platform' policies of the 70s whereby anyone who differed from the Left's hard line was barred from speaking publicly. Universities which invited right-wing speakers would be bullied into cancelling such lectures or, if they kept their nerve, pickets and heckling would frighten people off from attending and drown the speaker out on the night.

Susan Kelly ● 4737d

Re  satire was a lost art...              xxxxxxxxxxxxxx      and to which you have contributed most prolifically? , but not effectively.

Tony Price ● 4737d

Re  preferred 100 Margaret Thatchers           xxxxxxxxxxxxx but Jean,  could you imagine the pandemonium in the House  of Commons, that would be a sight for sore eyes , and ears!.

Tony Price ● 4737d

Re  we will deny you the right to speak           xxxxxxxxxxxxx they believe , so they say , in free speech, as long as it is theirs and no-one else's

Tony Price ● 4737d

Re  I respect your love for her            xxxxxxxxxxxxxx  I do not love her, never have and  found her mannerisms, ways and self portrayal quite infuriorating but I respect  that she had the guts foresight and determination to do what she did. And it is an undeniable fact she is very widely admired and respected around the world, witness those who will be coming to her funeral, more I would say than any other British PM, and almost unique in all of world leaders' funerals.

Tony Price ● 4737d

And I thought satire was a lost art...

Steve Lee ● 4737d

I would have preferred 100 Margaret Thatchers to 1 Tony Blair!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4737d

"...not all, think like you or agree with you and that's OK."Or at least it would be if such tolerance was shown in all factions but it is not.It is the sheer non-stop virulence of the hard left that causes so much rancour (for me at least).I was first introduced to the bully-boy style that is hard left politics at university in the late seventies.  Since then I have kept a very careful lookout for them as their central philosophy is if we decide that you are not one of us then we will deny you the right to speak (and it goes on from there...)

Tony Colliver ● 4737d

I really do not think that you can comment on what my Dad would be thinking. And as for the rest of the world, they are not mourning. Some are, some are not. some don't care either way, but from the reaction form many many people in this country and other countries she was also very very disliked.  I respect your love for her, but I have none for her. My advice to you is that you need to learn that not all, think like you or agree with you and that's OK.

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

That's a shame Tony it's really good, as most people who have read it, whether fans of his or not, have said.

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

Actually, I have been reading up about the Oil. BP was sold off.'This was the era of the Thatcher government's privatisation strategy. The British government sold its entire holding in the company in several tranches between 1979 and 1987' Where as the Norwegian government established it's own oil company and:'Norway doesn't take a royalty share of its oil and gas production. Instead, Norway makes all of its money by taxing the producers' profit - plus taking a substantial equity share in many projects, plus earning stock dividends from a government-controlled oil and gas company.' and 'Norway deposits 100 percent of its oil and gas revenues into its sovereign wealth fund - worth about $540 billion as of late last month. It then withdraws an average of 4 percent a year to help pay for public services.'Both countries had difficulties with drilling etc in the 70's but Norway preserved and Britain sold it off. Shame

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

Re  may have contributed to the housing shortage??            xxxxxxxxxxxxx not really as they were still occupied by someone. Having said that I can't say I agree with selling public housing,  which really should be for persons who cannot afford to fund their own purchase, but who can do that these days, thanks to too many persons chasing too few houses. If the mass immigration policy  would not have been induced, we should have 3 million less persons needing a roof over their heads. Mass immigration is and will be the ruination of this country. As individuals, many are nice people, damnit , I know enough of them, but as a mass invasion for political treasonous purposes, not a good idea.

Tony Price ● 4737d

Re  /russell-brand        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx sorry but that name is enough to put me off even considering reading anything associated with him. Dreadful person I M O.

Tony Price ● 4737d

Re My Dad would be turning in his grave          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I doubt it, he seems a good guy in most ways, so being able to see  matters  now more from " afar "  he will no doubt realise the truth of what was and had to be. It is alright people like you harping on about the supposed damage Mrs. T did  but why turn a blind eye to the blight Callaghan and his crew brought about, and why do you think something drastic had to be done. As so often happens, the times  bring about the right person. Just ponder what life would have been if your crew contiued in power, hell on earth. I don't think your Jim is held in much high esteem around the world like Maggie, even in his paradise the other side of the Iron Curtain. The Ruskies love her , not him. So forget your political  bias and mourn with the rest of the world. You'll be in better company.

Tony Price ● 4737d

I agree she went too far in some things and if Heath,Wilson and Callaghan hadn't lost the plot to the degree that they had and the unions not been so self serving she would not have come along.But they had,the were and she did.North Sea oil cost vast amounts more to extract and process than land based supplies as far as I know and was of inferior quality.

Keith Iddon ● 4737d

Tony have readhttp://www.researchasylum.org.uk/?lid=1304 and then stop blaming Labour for asylum seekers. Really learn your history. You maybe getting confused with EU migrants. And do you possibly believe that maybe the mass selling off of council housing may have contributed to the housing shortage??

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

Re pre Thatcher days were such bliss...          xxxxxxxxxxxxxx do you mean to say Keith you did not like the metres high piles of rat infested rubbish, unburied bodies and the other delights  brought directly about by the Unions while their Layabout Party was in power. When was the I M F called in, ( What crisis, what crisis ? ) Thems was the days. And why the Thatcher Govt won 3 elections, and don't forget, she was not  rejected by the public, just the Wets. All we see now is the political posturing by lefties who would soon bring back " the good old days " that Callahan presided over.

Tony Price ● 4737d

I agree that there was in need of reform, but not all the reforms that Thatcher brought in. We now have no UK owned manufacturing in this country. She went too too far the other way. I really can not remember the constant disruption to every life, it was one winter, and the three days weeks in 73-74 (Under the Cons) was also to do with the oil crisis not just the unions. And the seventies was a decade of both the Labour and Conservative governments. With relative calm from 74 -78. Also in the 1970s, oil was found in the North Sea, off the coast of Scotland.' What happened to the oil?

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

Re working people are no longer able           xxxxxxxxxxxxxx more acknowledged to be the result of mass immigration brought about by the Labour Party and their policies of pandering to asylum seekers ( bogus as Jack Straw admitted )refugees ( none should be HERE ) and immigrants. Took away the jobs of  the white working class and their homes as well. Remember what MP Hodge said.

Tony Price ● 4737d

It all sounds very peaceful and cosy Jaz,your idyllic memoir but to imagine that Britain was not in need of reform is to ignore the facts and let nostalgia for an imagined society cloud thinking.The mid seventies saw 18-25% inflation,high interest rates,huge unemployment and massive job losses,mostly under Labour believe it or not.The unions played into the hands of the media by having rabble rousing leaders and the public were mostly sick and tired of disruption to daily life.I remember the mountains of rubbish on the streets and the three day week,the countless strikes and industrial unrest,the govn. trying to do deals with union bosses in smoke filled rooms,the poor quality of our manufactured goods(particularly our cars) and the rest of the world overtaking us at most things,including football and cricket...I am not a Thatcher tub thumper,but to imagine a very sick patient does not need astringent medicine is to ignore truth.

Keith Iddon ● 4737d

In my opinion, one of the best pieces written on this subjecthttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/russell-brand/margaret-thatcher-our-unm_b_3046390.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

Yes I do, I remember the seventies very well. My father, a northern man who came to London, after graduation, in the very early 60s. He was a market research manager of a national company, and owned his own home, after being brought up in a co-op house.However he was a staunch Labour supporter. He supported the unions, saying that the workers deserved decent pay and working conditions. We had fun, playing cards by candle light, wearing a number of jumpers to keep warm. He had been through the Grammar school system and despised the fact that your education was set out for you at 11, and became an advocate for the truly comprehensive system, which was terrible in the 70's but grew to be one of the best education systems in the world. He sat with the workers in the canteen and not with directors in their dining area. He welcomed all into our home, saying that he didn't care who my friends were as long as they were good people and worked hard. And I walked three miles to school and three miles back every day, as there was not a direct bus route to my school, although I lived within the catchment area. (There is one now brought in by Ken) And as most of the rubbish then was food, no packaging then, we had a compost heap. My Dad would be turning in his grave, with what Maggie did.

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

I wonder how old you are Jaz and if you remember doing your homework by candle light or walking to school because the buses were on strike or not being able to bury a dead relative because the mortuaries were on strike or walking past massive mountains of rotting and rat infested and uncollected rubbish because the binmen were on strike?Ahh,those pre-Thatcher days were such bliss...

Keith Iddon ● 4737d

And I want to repeat it, so echoes my sentiment also:'The death of Margaret Thatcher is nothing more than a salient reminder of how Britain got into the mess that we are in today. Of why ordinary working people are no longer able to earn enough from one job to support a family; of why there is a shortage of decent affordable housing; of why domestic growth is driven by credit, not by real incomes; of why tax-payers are forced to top up wages; of why a spiteful government seeks to penalise the poor for having an extra bedroom; of why Rupert Murdoch became so powerful; of why cynicism and greed became the hallmarks of our society.'

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

Mass unemployment, industrial collapse and economic decay; race riots, poll tax riots and industrial strife; the wasting of North Sea oil, the poor made poorer, arms for Saddam Hussein. These are Thatcher's monuments.----------------------------------------I wish I had said the following - it echoes my sentimentThe death of Margaret Thatcher is nothing more than a salient reminder of how Britain got into the mess that we are in today. Of why ordinary working people are no longer able to earn enough from one job to support a family; of why there is a shortage of decent affordable housing; of why domestic growth is driven by credit, not by real incomes; of why tax-payers are forced to top up wages; of why a spiteful government seeks to penalise the poor for having an extra bedroom; of why Rupert Murdoch became so powerful; of why cynicism and greed became the hallmarks of our society.

Jeremy Hanson ● 4737d

I also believe that there has been such a reaction to her death because of the Government that we have in power right now. They are trying to finish all that Maggie started and we are all feeling it, with the privatisation of the NHS, Education and civil service etc If we had a labour or left wing government right now, there would not have been such a reaction, from those who loathe her and those who don't , many are unconsciously displaying their feelings towards this government.

Jaz Brown ● 4737d

Don't be too hard on the Lefties and Socialists. When capitalism finally collapses and in 2015-2020 and when it's clear to everyone that there will be no more growth, it will be grass roots, people oriented activists who will have the best chance of picking up the pieces.Mrs Thatcher was a bully and an egomaniac. The damage she caused in the North will never be repaired or forgiven in my lifetime.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4737d

Because they were private occasions.

Steve Lee ● 4737d

Re  These are Thatcher's monuments.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx you are in  a sad minority by all accounts. I don't recall too many dignatories from  abroad coming to the funerals of most of the other P M's  you cite. I wonder why that was.

Tony Price ● 4738d

Agree with every word.

Penny Crocker ● 4738d

Mass unemployment, industrial collapse and economic decay; race riots, poll tax riots and industrial strife; the wasting of North Sea oil, the poor made poorer, arms for Saddam Hussein. These are Thatcher's monuments.Clement Attlee, Harold Macmillan, Harold Wilson and, yes, even Ted Heath, were honourable, hard-working, kindly men who worked with the grain of society instead of against it, and each in their own way contributed so much to our national life. Yet for them it was quiet, reflective, respectful family funerals.How deeply shocking and inappropriate that our noblest national shrine, St Paul's Cathedral, should be hijacked for someone who is as divisive in death as she was destructive in life.

Anthony Warwick-Ching ● 4738d

I was around and saw what she did. A whole town Mansfield in Nottinghamshire destroyed with no work once the coal mines has closed. No work for tens of miles many uemployed and forever unemployable. Givernment wanted to retrain for what?

Peter Cumberpatch ● 4738d

Re  I don't see why her death would be a relief           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  some people are full of bile and any excuse to spew some of it out. As I said in a previous posting, the ones I saw here in England and those in Scotland jubilating at her death were not old enough to have even been around when Mrs. T was in power. Lefties are usually guided  more by  hate than logic. I wonder what use they think they are or ever will be to their fellow countrymen.

Tony Price ● 4738d

I don't see why her death would be a relief, though, other than to herself, given that she's been out of power for 23 years.

Susan Kelly ● 4738d

You were doing well up until now Nigel...then you suddenly start spouting fluent (bigoted, ill-informed and clearly prejudiced) bollox. What happened, did you forget how to do joined up thinking and instead resorted to copying the kind of bilge about the Scots you've obviously been reading in the English press?Yes, the parties celebrating Mrs Thatchers death in Glasgow were wrong on a variety of levels, but then, so were numerous similar parties held in England. As we're not associated with bagpipes down here, however, what would you suggest the English Ghouls 'disappear up' as a suitable substitute, prey tell?In relation to the Scots draining 'more' resources, I strongly suggest that you refrain from further comments of this ilk until you've taken the trouble to inform yourself by means other than the Daily mail or the Sun.And in case the penny didn't drop earlier in this short epistle Nige'...I'm an Englishman

Robert Rosamond ● 4738d

I am relieved by her passing. She caused too much suffering for far too many.Sixteen-cats Peter.

Peter Cumberpatch ● 4738d

Tony C. thankyou for the very full answer,I now understand your view point and agree with most but not all.I too witnessed on a daily basis the excesses....not much more than foeti barging their way along Westway through to Marylebone Road in 911s Ferraris etc.  Also it was quite extraordinary in the City pubs at lunchtime,it could quite easily have been what I imagine the Bullingdon Clubs works outing would have been like...the Bolly (and better) certainly flowed, I expect it still does even in these chastened times.  I'm sorry that employees gave you a hard time workwise,there will always be some, but shooting is probably a bit excessive, giving warnings which go unheeded is definately a case for legitimate sacking and should be used.  Our son is in the same game as yourself well almost, banking software in the City,he's taken the freelance option as well. He too complains bitterly about the astounding eneptitude of some "High Flyers",but they survive.

Tony Wood ● 4738d

Did Mrs T do anything as great as Churchill? I would struggle on that one.She got us out of the financial mess - after Labour had got this country into being the sick man of Europe. Will that party ever learn?However she dismantled not only financial regulations which took some twenty years to lead to the last crash, but in changing the rules she also probably unwittingly changed our moral standards.And Blair stood by some of this.Anything goes nowadays. You can dance on her face in the street.A ceremonial funeral on this scale is just too much.

George Knox ● 4739d

The reason she said she didn't want a state funeral is that it would have to be agreed by parliament and a debate would be ‘divisive’.  For that read that MPs might have said what they thought about her and possible voted it down.  In all but name it will still be a State funeral which we all have to pay for minus a tiny amount paid by the vastly wealthy Thatcher Foundation

Nigel Williams ● 4739d

Thatcher herself was at pains to make clear that she did not want a state funeral.I think this was in recognition of the fact that the nation was very much divided on her.As a direct consequence of honouring her wish her funeral is going to be one notch down from that.

Tony Colliver ● 4739d

Actually, I have nothing against children.I have two of my own - one of whom is still at university - and I am looking forward to maybe getting some grandchildren one day (if I last that long).My point was not an entirely serious one, though I do wish that there was someway that we could find a way as a society to reign in those amongst us who think that deliberately having ten kids whilst living on welfare is a good idea.  Sadly, I fear that this one is intractable.Comfortable retirement?  No chance of that here I'm afraid.  I'm still young enough to be caught up with the provisions that are starting to be put in place (with much more to come I'm sure) to deal with that very deficit.

Tony Colliver ● 4739d

Mr Eric Alan Leach, with due respect, there is some truth in what you say about the Baroness Thatcher, but really, one never but never laughs at someone's funeral, no matter who the person is, so to ironically question if one should laugh at her funeral is rather out of keeping with your character. Secondly, I'd like to say that with all her faults she was a very sensitive woman privately, as evidenced when she quietly whispered thanks to a very nervous young aspiring teenager delegate at her party conference who had just delivered a stunning speech with: "...and now go and phone your Mum."  A sensitive woman like that doesn't deserve your comment.

Gerry Tan ● 4739d

It isn't a state funeral and in what sense did she 'create' the war?

Susan Kelly ● 4739d

The damage that Thatcher inflicted on this country is still being felt and will be felt for a generation. She created 'meism', destroyed manufacturing, turned the police into thugs to break the unions, stopped building Council Houses, sold off school playing fields, and 'bigged up' banking/financial services (to the extent that the 2008 crash was catastrophic for us).She even created a small war that she could win just to get re-elected. Blair was trully awful but Thatcher was much worse.State funeral? You are having a laugh aren't you?

Eric Alan Leach ● 4739d

You may not like children but it would be a very bad idea to tax them or parents for having children. We already have a birth rate that is barely above replacement level. Your comfortable retirement is dependent on there being enough well educated children of the current generation to maintain economic growth. You could argue that children are already the most heavily taxed section of society as it is they that will have to deal with the huge deficits that we built up.

Andy Jones ● 4739d

When the poll tax was introduced I was 18/19yrs old I was working as an apprentice in beauty. I was earning £25 a week, I lived in Brent and the poll tax was £500 a year, so £50 a month (over 10 mths). Half my wages. Tony C claims there were 'plenty exemptions for those at the lower end.' This was absolutley not the case. I was expected to pay the full amount. My case went to court, with many others, but I still had to find the full amount, there was no reduction. Margaret Thatcher was hated by millions just as Tony Blair is today but I reckon if he lives to 87 people will forget the mistakes he made and he will be revered in the same way that Maggie is now. I dont believe she should have a state funeral she was a prime minister she chose the job and got paid to do it. Some people benefited from her policies and many saw real hardship because of it. She wasn't a volenteer charity worker who gave her time for free. she should have a 'normal' if big funeral, with the Tory elite, the Queen etc. I  wont be taking the day off work to line the streets to watch (or to protest).

Marie Shelny ● 4739d

What I witnessed was customers (many of them so called sophisticated corporates) being mis-sold expensive derivatives products left right and centre by people who only *thought* they knew how the products worked.  But when their understandings proved to be less than complete it was always (or nearly always) the customer that picked up the tab for the mess.And then there was the excess.Excess on a grand scale.Subsequent to this, after a brief and mostly unsuccessful stint running a web design company on the side / a semi-part time basis from 2000 or so for a couple of years, I started a software company with a couple of other guys.From 2002 until 2010 we ran that company (in healthcare software) attempting, amongst other things, to create jobs for an ungrateful government who kept making our lives ever more difficult, and ungrateful employees - many of who didn't really fancy the idea of actually working for a living and half of which should have been taken out the back by the bins and shot in the head for all the good they were.Never *EVER* again will I employ anybody directly.  The sense of entitlement is breathtaking.  If I need a service I will go to an independent supplier and pay them for just the job at hand at the time.

Tony Colliver ● 4739d

So you worked there until 2002,saw what happened and DIDN'T tell us,you swine! It may be that as the crash didn't happen until 2007-2008  you were working elsewhere or something,but I'd still like to know what you did witness,go on give us the goss!

Tony Wood ● 4739d

Re  continue to vote for ever more spending -         xxxxxxxxxxxx good reason for bringing  back the system of only ratepayers  allowed to vote!

Tony Price ● 4739d

Re  the environment that lead to the Big Crash              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx an environment wallowed in fondly  by a socialist government  who needed the taxes paid by the City to finance their programme of benefit hand-outs and mass immigration. Nothing to do with Thatcher at all but champagne socialists.

Tony Price ● 4739d

maybe it's a shame parents don't have to pay an amount on behalf of their children...

Tony Colliver ● 4739d

Yes, we all pay lots and lots of all sorts of indirect taxes.The moral principle in play here is the one where people do not value that which they do not (apparently) pay for.Whilst we all know that the majority of council funding comes from central sources, in the public's mind the funds come from rates / poll tax / council tax / whatever "local" tax is the tax of the day.This leads to a situation where those not paying - even a heavily discounted amount - continue to vote for ever more spending - nominally at other people's expense, because they do not perceive it as coming out of their own pocket.In this way is a democratic deficit created.People will spend spend spend when they are not (or believe that they are not) paying for it.(A similar principle lies behind the government's introduction of universal credit - to force people to become responsible for the connection between what they receive and what they spend.  Excellent though this idea is, I have to say that I have severe doubts whether the experiment will work out in the end but to explain why would risk you accusing me of taking a morally superior stance again.)

Tony Colliver ● 4739d

Children didn't have to pay the Poll Tax - only adults

Andy Jones ● 4739d

Re  you can't tax people who barely make enough to support themselves.                xxxxxxxxxxxxx I thought the Poll Tax was  an amount made upon an individual in accordance to the calls they made on the public purse, doing away with the charge whereby one person in a house had to pay the same  as one where there are half a dozen, thus the amount imposed on one person would have been much REDUCED. We are back to the system where a single person with no children etc is forced to pay  the same as a family with six  children, all at school, amount of rubbish needing to be collected etc, use of pulic libraries etc.

Tony Price ● 4739d

The fact that some people who you regard yourself as morally superior to didn't like paying it doesn't make it a good tax. That a nurse would have to pay the same as a merchant banker would make it a self-evidently bad idea in most people's eyes but you seem fixated on the concept that everyone should pay something. In fact everyone does pay tax no matter what income they are on. Mrs Thatcher had not long implemented a massive increase in VAT rates which was deeply regressive in taxation terms and this measure was leading to another very significant decrease in the disposable income of those on lower incomes. You may have known a disproportionate number of selfish people who simply didn't want to pay tax but in the country as a whole the less well off were experiencing a significant reduction in real disposable income. Luckily the Conservative party recognised this was a wrong and scrapped the tax.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4739d

Thatcher was not responsible for what the bankers did.They did that to themselves - or rather to us.I worked as an independent IT contractor to the front desks (derivatives mostly) of various merchant banks from '89 through 2002 and I saw what happened for myself.

Tony Colliver ● 4739d

"Nope - I have not forgotten the bankers. I'm very unhappy about their role in recent events, but they are "recent" - i.e. many years after Thatcher left power."  But surely Thatcher took all of the credit for creating the environment that lead to the Big Crash i.e. the Big Bang, time is inconsequential isn't it,at what point do you think responsibility for your actions run out,the answer is never isn't it?  Have you honestly forgiven/forgotten people like Jack Dash or Arthur Scargill "because it was a long time ago" or do you still hold them up as an example of the evil of socialism? I wonder.

Tony Wood ● 4739d

I Hate him and his wives. Scumbag.

Asha Smith ● 4739d

Nobody wants to tax people that barely make enough to support themselves.There were plenty of exemptions for those at the lower end and doubtless there would have been plenty more over time as the wrinkles got worked out.I do not think that being asked to pay a discounted figure of 20% was a tax too far.I also knew of many people who violently (almost literally) objected to being asked to pay a single penny piece towards the facilities that they enjoyed freely on the basis that it would put a dent in their budget for a new (note - not second-hand,  but *new*) car or TV.  The selfishness of the people in this (substantial) cohort disgusted me then and it still disgusts me today.

Tony Colliver ● 4739d

Nobody, even on the extreme right of today's Conservative party, would advocate a return to a Poll Tax as it is recognised you can't tax people who barely make enough to support themselves. It was a remarkably stupid idea which convinced Conservatives that Mrs. Thatcher was a liability despite her previous successes at the ballot box.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4739d

The principle is not in dispute.What is is that all should pay *something*.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

'I am absolutely staggered at this assertion.'As you'd forgotten the tax was actually implemented this is not surprising. The view that the tax was unfair wasn't just the majority position in the country but within the Tory party and the championing of the Community Charge was a step too far for most of Margaret Thatcher's ministers and a key reason for her removal. They, like most people, recognised that fairness in taxation generally meant that people who had more should contribute more.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4740d

Scargill is a bit of a side issue as he is a comedy figure who makes a convenient bogey man. Ultimately the miners who broke from the NUM did no better than those that didn't so you can't blame Scargill for the fate of the industry.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4740d

Re  Because of her hatred of unions she deliberately closed down industry and manufacturing           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx what a load of rubbish. The Unions  were well on the way of bringing the country down, why  do some so conveniently forget  the winter of discontent and the  disastrous behaviour of  persons like Red Robbo,  bringing the demise of the car industry. White working class unemployment  now is due to N Labour's purposefully letting in millions of  immigrants ( enriching our society ), that  was their secretly stated aim, the break up British society. Put the blame where it belongs. As a matter of interest, how many  white working class persons are there in Southall for example, and it ain't gonna stop there.

Tony Price ● 4740d

Re the crowds which had been drinking since 5pm           xxxxxxxxxxxxxx just goes to show Asha what responsible and hard working members of society they are('nt). Probably all on benefits?. Good reason for stopping all benefits? Then start again with better bens for the genuine only.

Tony Price ● 4740d

I am absolutely staggered at this assertion.What is "unfair" about being asked to contribute something towards the services that we all rely on?(Apart, of course, about being p'ed off at being told you were going to have to pay for something that you had come to enjoy as a complete freebie up to that point?)

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

I have just watched news coverage of groups of young people in Scotland (most of whom looked too young to even remember the Thatcher government) dancing and partying to 'celebrate' the death of Baroness Thatcher.If this attitude is typical of the Scots nation then the sooner they gain independence and disappear up their own bagpipe without draining any more resources from the other parts of the UK and voting at Westminster on matters which don't affect them, the better.

Nigel Brooks ● 4740d

Re    yes, what a remarkable lady.           xxxxxxxxxxxxx and so it would appear. You seem to be vastly outnumbered not only in this country  but around the world, please see :-         " The death of Baroness Thatcher has dominated financial as well as political headlines around the world overnight. In The Daily Telegraph, Lord Young, who Lady Thatcher famously said brought her solutions, not problems, has led a flood of tributes from trade groups, corporate bosses and entrepreneurs, saying she "changed the economy of the world."  She was a "giant of the 20th Century", says the South China Morning Post; whose "economic overhaul is still debated", says the Wall Street Journal; she was the "great reformer: the pragmatic politician who defended free markets", according to the FT."        And don't forget what even the Russians say about her, the peoples of Eastern Europe  owe their  freedom now to her for having the guts and foresight to engage with Gorbachov, persuading Reagon to follow her example. Join the ranks of Livingstone and Galloway by all means, back stabbers both. I wonder what Lee Jasper  has to say?

Tony Price ● 4740d

I wonder what our other leaders would be remembered for?What epitaph would one give Blair or Brown for instance?

Jean F Fernandez ● 4740d

"...good people were thrown on the scrapheap by Scargill - I hope he is proud."Exactly!It continues to stagger me that people cannot see this even after all this time.A thoroughly nasty and unpleasantly selfish a man has rarely walked this earth as Scargill.At least the courts ruled against him and in favour of the NUM over the London flat:    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20303797I have always found the hypocrisy of this "president for life", "free flat for life" business absolutely breath-taking.  How did the trade union members ever put up with it in the first place?  Could they not see that their union masters were seeking riches at their expense in exactly the same way that they accuses the "company bosses" of doing so?  And for *LIFE* - I mean... talk about gold-plated pension arrangements.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

In my experience, discussions about Margaret Thatcher always follow the same pattern - those who liked and respected her find reasons to justify this and those who didn't do the opposite.No rational argument is likely to change this, as it is an emotional, not rational response.  I am by no means saying this is "wrong" in any way - we are primarily emotional beings.I agree with Susan - the poll tax was very much in effect, withdrawn by John Major very soon after he became PM in 1992  (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8370222/Local-government-funding-timeline-From-rates-to-poll-tax-to-council-tax.html)My problem with the poll tax was the government's hard line approach concerning pensioners, those on benefits and students.  They were told that their income would be significantly reduced, regardless of their own or their families' circumstances.As the date for the actual deployment of the tax became closer, the government started making concessions and this no doubt encouraged people to increase their protests, sensing weakness.As a simple tax, I thought it would be fairer than rates, for which only the main householder is easily liable.  Unfortunately, the government of the time never really persuaded many people that their best line of defence was not to come off the elctoral roll.The poll tax seems to have all-but destroyed the Conservative party in Scotland.Regarding the demos celebrating Thatcher's death, these are clearly in bad taste and show a lack of basic courtesy.  I don't think people can be criticised for a lack of respect - if Thatcher didn't earn their respect, why they should they show any?  Courtesy, however, seems to me to be a basic right in a civilised society.

Phil Kay ● 4740d

The Poll Tax was enacted - it was called the Community Charge. The self-evident unfairness of it meant it didn't last very long.The coal mines didn't need to go. Most European countries subsidise domestically produced energy and our mines were much more efficient and productive than those. At current coal prices they would need minimal subsidy if any. Mrs Thatcher preferred imported energy to that provided domestically by unionised labour. It was a political move which was basically pay back for what happened in the seventies. It might have seemed worth it with North Sea Oil coming in and energy prices relatively cheap compared to now but in retrospect the price was too high to pay in terms of national interest let alone the destruction of community life in mine working areas.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4740d

You're right - sorry, I forgot about the brief period.  it was so short it barely registers even now after having done an extra specially good rummage around in my ancient memory banks.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

Margaret Thatcher only closed the chapter on a book that was written by Arthur Scargill.Like so many union leaders before him (and sadly, since) he fought a battle that was far more wide-ranging than protecting and enhancing his members' interests.Unproductive pits were forced to remain open and the productive pits were hampered by archaic working practices where Scargill fought to retain all jobs rather than fewer better paid ones as a result of modernisation.Scargill's 'luddite' approach and self-aggrandisement did everything to destroy mining in this country. We had been brought to our keens by the miner's strikes in 1972,1973 and 1974. Scargill took his members out without even calling a ballot, he didn't even have the support of the TUC. The coal industry needed to change to survive, Scargill resisted any concept of change for his actions thousands more lost their jobs than ever more needed to be the case.The communities destroyed will probably never fully recover, good people were thrown on the scrapheap by Scargill - I hope he is proud.As a footnote- in December 2012, fully ten years after he was replaced as 'President' of the NUM, he was told to vacate his fully-expensed £1.5 million flat in The Barbican (a well-known coal field) which had been paid for since 1982.  Lovely chap.

Nigel Brooks ● 4740d

To me Thatcher was what a leader should be, she lead from the front. "You turn if you want to, the ladies not for turning" is her one saying that stands out. How many u-turns have we seen the current leaders take. As for the unions & Scargil, they were as militant as she was, but in the opposite diretion, they brought down the Callahan government, and Thatcher was the countries responce. She was brought down by her own party members just because they were scared of their own futures.I've always seen her downfall as the start of the rotten to the core era in British politics, everyone only in it for themselves. Would we have seen all those MPs making fake claimes etc under a Thatcher government? I think not.She was the last true leader, Blair, Brown, Cameron & Clegg are/were not real leaders to me.I will mourn her passing, even if I did not like everything she did.

Leslie Bailey ● 4740d

The Poll Tax was enacted, Tony. I remember paying it for a year or two, must have been 1990/1. It was a fraction of the rates we'd been paying.Thatcher's hatred of the unions stemmed from the serious damage they did to this country in the 70s, when they were thoroughly corrupt and self-serving, run by a tiny minority of Stalinist hotheads who would brook no dissent in their ranks from more moderate members.

Susan Kelly ● 4740d

I think she recognised this as being a problem which is why she always insisted on not being given a state funeral.Sad really, because she did deserve one.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

It surely is a sad reflection on the socity of today when some people celebrate and demonstrate on hearing of the death of another human being.What happened to respect? Shameful behaviour even if you did not like or agree with Margaret Thatcher there is absolutely no excuse for the scenes we have witnessed on TV.I guess some on the left were organising these demonstrations for a long time, just waiting for the news of her passing.It does rather say a lot about those on the left in this country doesn't it?One would hope that there will be no such disgusting bahaviour during her funeral. It reflects more on the demonstrators than on the late Margaret Thatcher.Disgraceful!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4740d

What's that supposed to mean Tony.  Any chance of a reasoned argument?As for your point below about the coal mines, it's been discredited many times before.  The UK was producing the cheapest deep mined coal in Europe at the time and the shortsightedness of closing down the industry whilst leaving hundreds of years-worth of coal unmined beggars belief.  Other countries subsidised coal because they could see the benefits of a diverse energy supply.  The amount we pay to keep the nuclear energy industry going dwarfs anything we paid out on coal.

Nigel Williams ● 4740d

That is so far from the truth that I really don't know where to begin.laughable in fact.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

It says much of what one needs to know about the attitudes of many on the left.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

"... she crippled people financially with the unfair poll tax"What nonsense.In case it escaped your notice, the poll tax was never enacted - more's the pity.I for one was delighted to see the passing of free school milk after having been forced to drink the warmed in the sun foul-tasting and thoroughly disgusting liquid in the early sixties.The coal mines needed to go. Simples. All changes of that scale are going to be painful, but that is no reason to keep propping up failing enterprises at vast cost to everybody else.(Oh, and in case it escaped your notice, all politicians think they are better than everybody else - it is almost axiomatic.)

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

Nope - I have not forgotten the bankers. I'm very unhappy about their role in recent events, but they are "recent" - i.e. many years after Thatcher left power.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand 'I have a problem, it is the government's job to cope with it!' or 'I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!'; 'I am homeless, the government must house me!' and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? "Somehow you seem to have forgotten "I am a banker and seem to have made a bit of a whoopsie,never mind "society"(and since you asked,that's us too) will dig us out".

Tony Wood ● 4740d

Thatcher caused all the problems that the country is experiencing now.  Because of her hatred of unions she deliberately closed down industry and manufacturing and made the UK reliant on finance and services which lined the pockets of her friends.  Because of her encouragement of the get rich quick mentality companies stopped employing apprentices, sourced manufacturing abroad and stopped investing for the long term.  All this has come home to roost in the 'Benefit Culture'.  Areas outside the South East used to be vibrant places populated by working people that had money in their pockets.  Contrast that to so many places now where the few jobs that are available are unskilled and low paid.  It has ripped the heart out of vast swathes of the country.I won't celebrate anybody's death but to pretend that she was anything other than a disaster for the country is, in my opinion, as massive error.

Nigel Williams ● 4740d

Just read that Labour supporters have been celebrating her death. What wicked people. How would they feel if someone close to them died. Would they want people celebrating and laughing. What goes round comes round. Please respect the dead.Smashed shop windows, paint bombs and vandalism were all remnants of the Left's sick 'celebration' of Baroness Thatcher's death last night. The first of several planned ‘Thatcher death parties’ across the country began last night with more than 200 revellers gathering in Brixton, south London.Riot police were deployed as the crowds which had been drinking since 5pm started to become more aggressive, refusing to let buses through the streets. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306165/Margaret-Thatcher-death-parties-The-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html#ixzz2Px5cHKhw Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Asha Smith ● 4740d

It is very sad when people speak ill of the dead. So so sad.

Asha Smith ● 4740d

Quite right Bud - whatever your politics and views on her as a PM, there is no excuse for such disgusting behaviour. Iron Lady - Rust In Peace :).

James Brown ● 4740d

Please tell me that this is a joke ? You cannot seriously believe that David. Labour opening the doors to the country was the problem for mass uncontrolled immigration

Bud Richards ● 4740d

Fact is that she was one ballsy lady and as the old saying goes, you can't please all the people all the time. Yes, she made some decisions that were hugely unpopular, but I believe she always had a long term vision to make Britain a better place for us all. To see people in Scotland dancing on pictures of her face in celebration of her death made me sick. I work on The Strand in town and if I see any such behaviour, someone will be getting a thick lip!RIP Mrs T

Bud Richards ● 4740d

RIP Margaret. I totally agree, Margaret Thatcher and Churchill were the outstanding leaders of this country.Our current leaders have a lot to learn.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4740d

Oh, and did she not back the construction of the Channel Tunnel which paved the way for mass uncontrolled immigration? Yes, what a remarkable lady.

David Wright ● 4740d

She thought she was better than anyone else, she spoke down on people, she abolished free milk for schoolchildren, she shut the coal mines and put people out of work (which sparked the beginning of todays welfare culture), she crippled people financially with the unfair poll tax etc... yes, what a remarkable lady.

David Wright ● 4740d

Mrs. T.        xxxxxxxxxxxxx        I found many of her mannerisms  infuriorating, the condescending way she spoke  at times, the way she would hold her head, the way she walked BUT she made me proud to be British again,and the effect she had on the world stage was  tremendous, the catalyst who ended the Cold War, forged closer relations with our cousins across the Atlantic certainly not seen since Churchill's day. Regarded as the best peace-time Prime Minister, probably correct.

Tony Price ● 4740d

A different generation, tempered by war, rationing, hardship -- a genuine fear of an unbearable tomorrow. We who were born after the war are all horribly spoiled.

Susan Kelly ● 4740d

R.I.P Margaret. She did so much for this country. She had guts which is something that unfortunately David Cameron, Nick Clegg, Ed Milliband, Boris all lack. They are like little boys still in their nappies. Gutless and Spineless!The two great prime ministers have been Churchill and Thatcher.

Asha Smith ● 4740d

I agree, but the way that (to coin the modern vernacular) the 'entitled' classes responded one could be forgiven for thinking that the proposal was tantamount to a demand for the lives of their first four children!Personally, I think it would have instilled some much needed responsibility into many that are seriously short of an understanding of same as it applies to them.

Tony Colliver ● 4740d

Baroness Thatcher was a great woman and a fine PM(not everyone's cuppa, but I admired her) - she was determined, hard working and clever.Tony, I've never seen anything wrong with the principle of the Poll Tax - it was a fair tax on every individual.

Gerry Tan ● 4740d

Yep, a very sad day indeed.I still to this day cannot figure out what is supposed to have been so very / totally / absolutely wrong with the poll tax.  I can see why those that had paid very little or nothing up to that point were objecting to it but that is not the same thing.

Tony Colliver ● 4741d

Very sad.The Poll Tax was a mistake in its implementation not it's concept and that is what forced her from office leading to a succession of lacklustre Tory leaders and the years of Bliar.Thanks to Lady T I was able to get a job with a privatised utility that set me off on my career ad raise a family.Here's one person who will mourn her passing.

Nigel Brooks ● 4741d

Apropos of a number of current threads on this very forum (guess who :-) ) :"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand 'I have a problem, it is the government's job to cope with it!' or 'I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!'; 'I am homeless, the government must house me!' and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? "There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families, and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. "It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations."

Tony Colliver ● 4741d

So right - I was in graduate school in the States in 1979 when she became PM but her time in power defined my whole young adult life and career.