Forum Topic

Bogus wedding In West London

Immigration inspectors had been tipped off by staff at Hillingdon register office that the “happy couple” did not seem to be in a legitimate relationship. They went to Monday’s ceremony at the civic centre in Uxbridge and swooped on the man shortly before the wedding started.The 22-year-old Indian groom, who had been living in Harlington, was found to have over-stayed his visa and was arrested and detained for being in the country illegally. He is expected to be deported.His intended bride, a 23-year-old Hungarian woman who is here legally under EU law, was questioned and later released by officers. The pair did not share a common language.Sarah Burton, from the UK Border Agency, said: “We are working closely with registrars across the London to clamp down on sham weddings and civil partnerships. This operation is another example of the success that we are having.“Where there are suspicions that a relationship may not be genuine we will investigate and, if necessary, intervene to stop it happening.”Councillor Jonathan Bianco said: “The London borough of Hillingdon takes its duty in regards to the institution of marriage seriously and is proud that our staff helped the UK Border Agency expose this sham marriage. Our staff are trained to look out for suspicious activity and helped raise the alarm in this case.“We hope that it will act as a deterrent to others who may be considering a sham marriage and sends out a clear message that criminal activity won’t be tolerated.” Last week a solicitor from Hatfield was jailed for 10 years for organising sham marriages on what was called “an industrial scale”, involving more than 1,000 couples and netting him and his accomplices an estimated £20 million.Judge John Bevan said members of Souleiman GA solicitors had run a “conveyor belt” of brides being flown in from eastern European countries. They would marry men they had never met from non-EU countries.The UK Border Agency received more than 1,700 calls from registrars worried about sham marriages in 2011, double the number of the previous year

Asha Smith ● 4780d79 Comments

> "plus of course it was not Marie that said it but she was the one under attack, hence the combined but false allegation."False allegation of what, Tony?It was Marie Anne who said what I was responding to, that's why I responded to Marie Anne.If I was responding to something Asha had said, I would have addressed my response to Asha. It would have been rather odd for me to respond to Asha about Marie's statement.Part of Asha's original statement which solicited several responses was that "shops like Lidl and poundstrecher and tesco express only employ immigrants from India"According to the Poundstretcher website there's no Poundstretcher in Greenford. If that's correct, it's clear that her statement was cannot have been limited to Greenford. If so, there's no evident reason to assume that she was referring to Lidl or Tesco within the confines of Greenford either. And as Poundstretcher, Lidl and Tesco Express all employ people who are not "immigrants from India", the seemingly blanket statement is demonstrably false.The fact that Asha's statement was false had already been pointed out by others. Marie Anne then said: "The poster who remarked that shops like Lidl, and others exclusively employ Indians etc....was stating a fact". By virtue of the fact that the poster who remarked that shops like Lidl, and others exclusively employ Indians etc....was stating a FALSEHOOD, as demonstrated above, Marie Anne's statement is also incorrect.This may appear pedantic, but I think it's important to challenge statements which are both sweeping and fundamentally untrue, such as "shops like Lidl and poundstrecher and tesco express only employ immigrants from India".It's especially important to be accurate and precise in one's wording when dealing with controversial subjects. Racial discrimination is one of those controversial subjects. It's especially important to be precise when dealing with such topics, because the things that people say and write can have very serious, sometimes fatal consequences. Particularly when dealing with subjects which are associated with violent hate crimes, one should be as clinically precise as possible.So when an entirely incorrect statement is made about a sensitive issue like this, that statement can't go unchallenged. Forums like these tend to be read by as many if not more people than the individuals who actually post and participate in discussions. Some of those people will be influenced by what they read, and if somebody who already harbours racist tendencies reads it, they'll probably believe it unless somebody explains why it's not true. If they believe it, they may act on it, and that act may be dangerous. It's incredibly important to make that clear. Unchallenged ignorance, especially on topics such as this, can lead to very serious hate crimes such as those committed by the colleagues of Ian Bell, whose poorly written and virtually meaningless article you shared with us.That's something I hope both Asha and Marie Anne would not want as a consequence of their false statements. I say I hope, as Marie Anne's response to people challenging the details of such false statement was "Why are you nit picking/ overanalysing  ? Just use your eyes and common sense.". Personally I think nit picking is not overanalysing when common sense is so clearly missing.

M Duley ● 4768d

Hi Tony,Regarding the Ian Bell article you shared with us from your "private" connection. Somebody mentioned that the writer is "an extreme right-wing blogger whose nonsense is spread on various race hate websites". You asked if there is a link to his blog. There is indeed. You'll find his personal blog here: http://ianbell.tumblr.comThe article you shared with us, Tony, in reference to the unsubstantiated claim by Marie Anne that 85% of muslims are on benefits, was one of several that Ian Bell has written for the UK's best known racist, fascist party, the BNP, with which I am sure you are familiar.You can see his articles for the BNP listed here: http://www.bnp.org.uk/search/node/%22ian%20bell%22Within that short list is the article containing Ian Bell's assertion that 85% of muslims "live off UK tax payers", which you shared for us (it's also cross-posted on his personal blog). Although for some reason which I still can't fathom you seemed to be under the impression the article was published by either The Sun or The Telegraph.The above information took me less a minute to discover using Google. Also within that minute of searching, I found that one can keep up with Ian Bell's daily utterances on Twitter at https://twitter.com/IanBell1963 I took a look. There, he also professes solidarity with:- violent racist organisation the EDL, whose leader was recently jailed.- a far-right racist football hooligan outfit called Casuals United.- the National Front, the extremely violent neo-nazi predecessor to the BNP (which still survives).- far-right white supremacist party the BFP (British First Party, older than the current BNP)- the CxF (combined Ex Forces), a group of racists/fascists professing to be ex-members of the British armed forces.- the NWI (North West Infidels) a violent racist offshoot of the EDL (not sure why the violent racism of the EDL wasn't good enough for them, maybe they just wanted a better name).That last bit took me a few extra minutes to discover. I'd not heard of most of the acronyms of the specialist violent fascist and racist groups which Ian Bell refers to on his Twitter account. I had to do a bit more googling to work those out.A lovely bunch. I wonder if they're as good with statistics as Mr Bell.On the BNP website, on the page where the article you posted originates, Mr Bell actually includes a list of "sources". Unfortunately, it seems he neglected to add references within the article content, specifying which particular bits of information were from which source (I think the reason for this will become clear as we go on). I had a look through them anyway to see if there was any more insight available into how he might have invented (sorry, I mean "calculated") the 85% figure.Unfortunately, there was not. The first link is to the Wikipedia page on Islam in the UK, the first paragraph of which directly contradicts an important figure he relies on in his article (he almost doubles the 2011 census estimates for number of muslims in the UK). Couldn't work out what info from here was used in the article. The page makes no mention of benefits or living off the taxpayer, so can't have informed the 85% figure.The second link is to a Pew Global Attitudes Project document called "Muslims in Europe: economic worries top concerns about religious and cultural identity". Again, there is no mention at all of benefits or living off the taxpayer that I could find, so this "source" cannot have informed the 85% figure.In fact, I can't say I noticed anything in this document (by an organisation based in the USA, apparently also interested in European views on the USA) that made its way into Mr Bell's article. Not sure why he's listed it as a source. I didn't read it in detail but it looks like a very interesting report. I'd recommend reading it as an example of informed, methodical, statistically robust reporting. Unlike the article you shared with us (although as I say, the Pew document contains nothing about benefits, it's about attitudes and perceptions).In case you find visiting the BNP website too distasteful (it does leave one feeling a bit grubby, I have to say), here's a direct link to the report: http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/254.pdfThe third link is an article in the Guardian from 2009 called "Why Muslim women are unemployed". No mention at all of benefits or living off the UK taxpayer in the article, so it can't have informed the 85% figure. Nothing in the Guardian article makes its way into Ian Bell's article (starting to see a pattern here, I think).The fourth link is to some statistics listed on the site of a charity called 1st Ethical, whose "mission is to empower British Muslims to benefit society through faith-based campaigns". Finally, I found some statistics here that were referenced in Mr Bell's article. This site provides a statistic stating that "28% of Muslims were renting houses from the council or Housing Association, the highest of any group at a value 8% above the national average". This also explains the stilted language of that reference in the Bell article, as he seems to have copy/pasted part of it directly. He did not seem to get the "4% live rent-free" statistic from this page, however (nor from any of his other listed sources that I noticed).Mr Bell's "estimate" of the number of muslims living in the UK is more than double the number stated on this website. Another trend emerging in his reporting, it seems.Oh, and perhaps unsurprisingly, this page makes no reference to benefits or living off the state either, so just like the other sources so far, it seems unlikely to have been used as a source for the 85% figure. It does make references to stats on rates of unemployment. Those stats are sourced from the 2004 Annual Population Survey (Office of National Statistics). Being unemployed doesn't make one a benefits claimant of course, but even if those stats are derived from such a source as the DWP, the rate given there is 15.8%, and from nine years ago.Moving on....The fifth link is to a website called wikiislam.net, a site which according to its "about" page is dedicated to the criticism of Islam, "whilst also allowing pro-Islamic responses in separate articles".The only relevance of this page seems to be as the source for the percentage of foreign prisoners who are muslim, although Mr Bell seems to have altered the range of at least one of the stats.None of this has relevance to the topic of benefits in the UK, though, so cannot have informed the 85% figure. The sixth source listed by Ian Bell is a Telegraph article titled "Britain's coping classes at breaking point". This appears to be the source of his stats on 2012 employment amongst UK muslims. The thing is, it's a bit short on statistics. The article has a sentence which states: "Half of Muslim men and three quarters of Muslim women are unemployed" (it doesn't specify whether these are portions of the working-age population or the population as a whole, or whether any or all of these people are living off the UK taxpayer or family members of working people).Mr Bell helpfully translates this into 50% and 75%, and further calculates an overall figure of 67.5%. Not sure how he got to that figure. I dropped out of A-level Maths and Statistics 20 years ago, but I think that if Mr Bell is basing his numbers on a 50/50 male/female split, his figure should be 62.5% (and that's notwithstanding the fact that the 1st Ethical site suggests the muslim population bucks the general trend in having a slight majority of men at 52%, which would push the average lower again). Hard to believe that somebody with such integrity and credibility as Mr Bell could get his sums wrong, so I'm assuming it's my maths at fault.Mr Bell compares the vague Telegraph's statement to statistics from 2004, taken from the aforementioned 1st Ethical website, which does state that their numbers of 13.5% unemployed (men) and 18% (women) are "as a proportion of the economically active population". Unless the Telegraph figures are too, the comparison is meaningless, but it's not clear.The Telegraph article is the first (out of six so far) of Mr Bell's sources to mention benefits, when it says "Unemployment among ethnic minorities costs the economy almost £8.6 billion a year in benefits and lost revenue from taxes". It makes no mention of the number or percentage of muslims who are on benefits or living off the taxpayer though, so it cannot have been a source used for the 85% figure.Oh, and incidentally, another of Mr Bell's "sources", which we've yet to get to, contradicts the Telegraph's vague and uncited assertions on unemployment quite starkly. It also gives more specific numbers and cites its sources.The seventh and penultimate of Mr Bell's sources is another Guardian article (not sure why he trusts the Guardian, I'm surprised he doesn't consider it a source of liberal lies). The article is titled "Almost a quarter of state school pupils are from an ethnic minority". The article doesn't mention muslims once. Next...The eighth and final of Mr Bell's listed sources is an article in the New Statesman titled "The lost Muslim generation". This article (which is from February 2010) states that unemployment amongst muslims was 16.4% (compared to a national average of 7.7% at the same time) based on figures from the UK Labour Force Survey for the first nine months of 2009. It then breaks those figures down to show the relatively high percentages of young and uneducated muslim youth who are unemployed. Again, it's not specified whether the 16.4% cited is derived from benefits claimants, but even if it was, difficult to see how it supports the 85% figure.I don't know about you, but I'm left wondering exactly where this erudite chap really did get the data on which to base his 85% "estimate".Personally, given his wholesale lack of the usual resources which inform statistic building (e.g. facts, evidence, stuff like that) my opinion is that the true source of his 85% figure is probably his fascist, racist imagination. Which seemed pretty likely from first reading the article after you posted it, Tony, but I suppose it's useful to have examined it a bit closer, in order to be more confident in the matter.I'm actually struggling to work out why Mr Bell even listed and linked to these eight documents. Given that not one single reference in any of them supports even the general thrust of his point, and many of the articles actually contain information which would lead to the conclusion that he's not much more than an incompetent liar.Perhaps he believes that the general readership of the BNP website will see the references and not think it worth following them to check his apparent sources for evidence to back up his statements. Maybe he believes they'll assume that "it must be true" because he linked to "sources". Or maybe he believes his sources back him up, even though they don't. It's all a bit strange.Anyway, looking through all that lot actually did take me quite a lot of time today, and trying to understand the logic of this racist, fascist gentleman has left me feeling physically ill, so I'm off to do something else now.Out of interest, did you find out from your "private" connection why they thought it appropriate to share with you this inaccurate and somewhat meaningless article from a party founded on hatred, numerous members of which have been convicted for terrorism and bombing offenses, and the murder, mutilation and assault of people purely on the basis of their skin colour? Perhaps your "private" connection is ignorant of the origin of the article. You should probably tell them, in case they're still passing it around. Especially if it was one of your muslim friends.

M Duley ● 4768d

No, I have not consulted the BNP website. I googled the first sentence of the article you quoted and the BNP website was the first result. Other websites publishing the article included other obvious race-hate websites.The statistics quoted from the Telegraph are about percentages of people not in employment. Nothing to do with the unrelated, unsourced, and unverified statement that 85% of Muslims are on benefits. Possibly nothing to do with benefits at all.I know it's a right-leaning publication but I very much doubt the Telegraph uses the BNP website as a source of information on either unemployment figures OR benefits claimants. The Ian Bell article says "current statistics fail to clarify how many actually collect benefits". Like the rest of the article, this sentence is vague, but he seems to be saying that he has seen no evidence to support the later statement that 85% of muslims are on benefits.[by the way, I'd be quite surprised if those statistics didn't exist and weren't collected by the government given all the bits on ethnicity in government forms, but that's a separate issue.]Yet he goes on to say "the indications are [...] that 85% [of muslims] live off UK tax payers". Yet no evidence is given as to what those indications are. His previously cited statistics are of no relevance, since they are for different and unrelated things:Here are the statistics he quotes (and some non-statistical statements):- 75% of all Muslim women are unemployed while 50% of all Muslim men are unemployed (67.5% total) - [these stats are attributed to the Telegraph. Yet they make no mention of benefits claimants (somebody who is not in employment is not necessarily a benefits claimant)]- "Muslims are also on sick leave more than anyone else" [an unattributed statement. It's unclear if this and following points are also from the Telegraph. However, again, even if this is true, it's nothing to do with benefits so can't inform the 85% "estimate"]- "24% of females and 21% of males claiming a disability" [again, nothing to do with benefits. Somebody claiming to have a disability is not necessarily a benefits claimant]. - "Muslims are the most likely among all religious groups to be living in accommodation rented from the council or housing association (28%); 4% live rent-free." [no mention of how non-religious groups fit in. No source. No explanation of what "the housing association" is. No explanation of what rent-free means, or why any of those people might be mentioned in relation to an estimate of benefits claimants. Not least because living in council or housing association accommodation doesn't mean you're on benefits, so these stats are also irrelevant to the 85% figure].- "the total prison population in the UK amongst category A and B criminals (the worst crimes) now stands at 35-39% Muslim" [can serving prisoners claim benefits? I don't know. Either way, no apparent relevance to the 85% figure. By the way, Mr Bell fails to mention this but it seems this 35-39% figure relates only to ONE individual prison, HMP Whitemoor, which is a Category A prison. Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9298578/Prisoners-under-pressure-to-convert-to-Muslim-gang.html ]As for the stats on the prison populations of countries other than the UK, let's be very generous and assume they are 100% accurate. They are also 100% irrelevant to the 85% statistic, so there's not really a need to dig further.The point seems to be that nothing whatsoever points to this 85% figure, least of all the one single possible source of this information, i.e. the UK government. I think he'd have mentioned it if there was anything to support it.Oh, by the way, which Sun correspondent were you referring to? I didn't notice until now the bit at the top where you mentioned it was from the Sun. I can't seem to find the article on their website or any reference to the article having appeared in their print version. At least the Sun website's on-site search engine isn't coming up with positive results. Maybe it's broken. But then, googling the first sentence of the article along with "The Sun" produces zero results too - quite something. Googling "The Sun" + "Ian Bell" returns quite a few results. They apparently write about a cricket player of the same name now and then. Presumably he's not the author of this text.  I can't seem to find any mention of an Ian Bell at all in association with The Sun apart from that.In fact, his name appears with this article only on obviously racist websites, as far as I can tell from searching on Google. I may have failed to search properly.Was this article really published in the Sun? It seems poorly written and racially aggravated even by the standards of that publication. Do you know whether it was published in their print and/or online editions? Or was your source mistaken? Can you post a link to where you copied it from?

M Duley ● 4773d

Re  for hysterical race-hate websites             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    maybe this will help?, take it up with sources mentioned there and let us know the outcome please:-      " Sun, 24/02/2013 - 20:00 By Ian Bell While the government is trying to slash £12 billion annually by targeting the handicapped, elderly and poor amongst our people do they have the will to tackle a group that is highly over represented above anyone else in welfare exploitation and cost to the public purse? The Daily Telegraph reported in 2012 that 75% of all Muslim women are unemployed while 50% of all Muslim men are unemployed (67.5% total) - a staggering rise from 13% for men and 18% for women in 2004. Muslims are also on sick leave more than anyone else, with 24% of females and 21% of males claiming a disability. Muslims are the most likely among all religious groups to be living in accommodation rented from the council or housing association (28%); 4% live rent-free. As if this is not enough, the total prison population in the UK amongst category A and B criminals (the worst crimes) now stands at 35-39% Muslim. Britain is not alone: In Belgium the figure is 16% (12.8% Moroccans, 3.1% Turks). French prisons have between 50% and 70% Muslims whilst in Norway the figure is over 30% and in Spain 70%. Not even Switzerland escapes, with 57.8% Muslims in Champ-Dollon prison alone. ???The connection between criminality and Islamism is very tight in Europe,??? said Michael Radu, a terrorism analyst at the Foreign Policy Research Institute. Since current statistics fail to clarify how many actually collect benefits and whether unemployment figures include those on disability and in prison, only an estimate can be made. The indications are nevertheless shocking: that out of 5 million Muslims living in Britain (2012 unconfirmed estimate increased the population number from 3 million), roughly 4.25 million Muslims, or more than 85%, live off UK tax payers. If we average this with a simple, quick calculation of the minimum benefit payment of ??67 a week, at least ??284,750,000 per week (??1.139 billion per month) is spent from UK taxpayer money on Muslims who barely contribute anything whatsoever to Britain???s revenues. The calculation is not detailed enough to include housing benefits, childcare support, medical care and other coverage. We can estimate that only in unemployment support, Muslims cost the British government at least ?? 13+ billion a year. A more detailed calculation need to be made when there are clearer records at hand. At present the government will not publish current, clear and defined numbers and we had to find them through different sources most of it coming from wikileaks. Some older numbers are inaccurate and highly understated since data has shown that the Muslim population tend to double in less than a decade (in 7 years). If the same population growth continues in a steady flow, by 2030 Britain will have a 40% Muslim population. Who will be generating the wealth for our economy if we continue to encourage takers instead

Tony Price ● 4773d

>> "When these people "marry", surely they should not get citizenship immediately."They don't. Happy now?>> "There should be rules as in the US that they have to me "married" for at least 5 years before being considered for citizenship to avoid these marriage of convenience scams"The UKBA website currently suggests one has to be resident and married for a minimum of three years before applying for citizenship.It also costs several times as much (2-3 times more than the US, 20-30 times more than Germany), takes many times longer to process (months vs weeks or even hours in other countries), and is more difficult to understand or get information about than almost any other country I've come across.As someone who is married to an non-EU citizen, I can tell you that almost everything you seem to believe about non-EU immigration is the opposite of the truth.Try reading some facts, rather than the hysterical crap in the hate rags that pretend to be newspapers. I might suggest the UK Border Agency website. The information is there, although if you're prone to depression I wouldn't suggest it, as trying to get clear information about how to actually go through the immigration process from the government is enough to drive any sane person to the point of suicide (or to the point of giving up, which I suspect is the true intention).To give you an idea:To get permission for my wife to enter the country in order for us to get married: £800 application for the visa. Up to three months wait before you are even allowed to ask what's happened to your application. Both people have to give up their passports for the entire duration, and if you need them back for an emergency, the whole application is void. Also if you are rejected, no refund of any of the application fee.Then if you get the visa, it lasts SIX months. And the person is prohibited from accessing any public funds (i.e. they can't even apply for benefits, let alone receive them).So after marrying, you then need to apply for another visa to allow the non-EU citizen, now a spouse, to remain in the country. Another few hundred pounds (I think it was about £600), another indefinite wait without a passport. If you are rejected, no refund of any of the application fee or need your passport back in an emergency.That one lasts two years. It gives you the right to work and pay National Insurance and income tax, but again, no access to public funds in return.Next up is what's called "indefinite leave to remain". This effectively gives you the right to stay in the country (not sure if this becomes void if the marriage ends). Currently costs just under £1000 to apply. If you are rejected or need your passport back for an emergency, application is void and no refund of any of the application fee. You are not allowed to ask what has happened with your application unless you have been waiting at least SIX months. Oh, and you can't apply until you have taken and passed the "life in the UK" test, which the vast majority of lifelong UK citizens would fail miserably. You have to pay to take the test and you have to travel to one of a few locations in the UK to take it. A successful application does not give you citizenship - that's a whole extra process.

M Duley ● 4778d