Forum Topic

Too much fuss ?

I can't help feeling that we're making too much fuss over the horsemeat question. There are infinitely more worrying events happening everyday all around us like benefits fraud, Afghan war, being struck by meteor debris, the financial crisis, the cold weather and dozens of other worries. Who's worried about a little bit of pony-on-a-plate?

Gerry Tan ● 4792d42 Comments

I haven't got strong views either way on fox hunting Keith. The only view I have is not to have too many laws about things that have little consequences to society. More sensible freedoms is what I champion - anything for a simple, sensible and sane life really.

Gerry Tan ● 4785d

Are you pro or anti the fox ghunting ban Gerry? Do you have a view either way?

Keith Iddon ● 4785d

Re  me? I couldn't care less.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  so that the animal has suffered unnecessary cruelty in the last 5 minutes or so in it's life means nothing to you at all. The sooner all meat products whether on sale or already prepared to eat in whatever form has to be declared halal/kosher  or not, the better. At least Luckhursts seem to have some conscience.

Tony Price ● 4785d

Its a shame you're not gonna use Richardson's in Northfield Ave again. They're a good butchers shop, even though their meat is expensive - its good quality and yes they're rather shy about talking about halal meat, but what the heck, I defy anyone to tell the difference in taste from halal or standard preparation of meat for sale. Sure, one realises the arguments about declaring whether meat is one or the other - some folk are touchy about knowing - me? I couldn't care less. Like I said, dunno what all the fuss is about. Their prime Scottish joints are from farms in the Orkeneys and that's good enough for me.

Gerry Tan ● 4786d

Re: Which local butcher will not confirm whether their meat is halal please?It was Richardsons in Northfield Avenue who were unable to comment on whether their meat was non-halal or halal to which I drew my own conclusions. I'll be shopping at Luckhursts in future!

Gail Clark ● 4786d

I presume Arabic, but i did not check this - instead I just googled the individual words to get their meaning in English:    http://islamqa.info/en/ref/9084

Tony Colliver ● 4786d

Hiya Tony C and Sue R, what language are the words marukh and haraam please?

Gerry Tan ● 4786d

(a) I did look them upand(b) you are taking things too seriously - my post was just a little bit of light relief

Tony Colliver ● 4786d

Rather misleading comments on what is or isn't regarded as a sin in Islam. If you are using foreign words it is a good idea to look up their meaning before going public with misinformation. "Marukh" means "disliked", a milder form of approbation, whilst "haraam" means "forbidden".

Sue Rowe ● 4787d

Re  because I DON'T sell halal meat.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  good for you, keep it up!

Tony Price ● 4787d

Re  I get angry about these things sometimes.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      only sometimes?. I get  annoyed all the time when I see my country  being handed over  to immigrants who don't come here to assimilate but we seem to be expected to assimilate into their ways, foods etc. I was in your shop this afternoon and I am sure you see full well as I do how not only West Ealing but the whole of the Borough has  been changed by mass immigration. No, I don't like it, why should I wish to see my environment washed away in a tide of immigration. And I make no apology for my beliefs. I maintain it would be unnatural to wish my own not to be the survivor and in my opinion it is those who champion the changeover as being the real racists, backstabbers and traitors. Have you Tony  L.  been to Shepherds Bush Market, that is a portent for the future for we indigs. They don't show the details of the school populations now, I wonder why?. And those are the future of the Borough, in the whole of London we are outnumbered 2-1, soon it will 3-1 and probably end up as Southall, where the original population is down to 1 in 10.  ( Sunday pm I took a friend to Outpatients at Ealing Hospital, and it was very busy, full almost. There was only one white British family ). Now wait for the squeals of racist.

Tony Price ● 4787d

"I have a butchers shop" And a damned good one at that!

Nigel Brooks ● 4787d

"Every other shop  now advertises halal meat available from them. So  the traditional British butchers have been replaced by halal ones, reflecting of  course the change in the population."Not just the change in population. I have a butchers shop and it's almost impossible for me to supply local institutions such as schools and nursing homes because I DON'T sell halal meat. They all insist on halal. If you want to change this, you should demand that your food is non-halal in the same manner that muslims demand that their food IS halal. But we don't do we. We just accept someones elses beliefs literally forced down our throats. Next time your in hospital or you have kids in school, try insisting that your food isn't hahal. See how far you get.There are alot of halal butchers catering for this market because for anyone providing food for public consuption, it makes business sense to buy from them. I get angry about these things sometimes.

Tony Luckhurst ● 4787d

Re  Rather proves my point I think.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  I must confess I took your allegation to apply more or less to all independent butchers whereas my response was more selective? I think the  three we have in Ealing don't palm horse off as beef etc? But I may be wrong, no doubt you will tell us if you find them doing that?. Thanks.

Tony Price ● 4787d

Rather proves my point I think.

Tony Colliver ● 4787d

Re  (Me, I'm not so sure          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx in some circs Tony you could be correct but bona fide butchers tend to show  the meat in larger parts and thus more discernible and not wrapped and half out of sight. But  misselling does happen. My local butcher in Southampton, VERY upmarket and expensive ( whole hog roasts etc ) has been fined 2X for selling Brazilian beef as Scottish which as they were fined, rather suggests  they knew and were not mere innocent pass-offs by their supplier.

Tony Price ● 4788d

It's a trust issue I guess.Rightly or wrongly people imagine that the local butcher will not adulterate the product.(Me, I'm not so sure.  :-) )

Tony Colliver ● 4788d

Re  it'll soon be time for some tender and tasty new season lamb!          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  your concern re animal welfare is there one minute and gone the next Gerry. If you had to kill the  lamb yourself, would you find  it's meat still so tasty?. I don't think I could kill to eat except possibly a fish or chicken. As a matter of interest, by Judaic " law " one is only to kill in order to eat to survive and not for pleasure.

Tony Price ● 4788d

I would have thought it is easier to hide Shergar in a burger or in processed meats and am surprised there is an increase in sales.

Keith Iddon ● 4788d

It's strange how people are dead against fox hunting,citing that they think it's cruel and nasty but don't seem to care one hoot about the life and death of chickens,cows and other farmyard animals.

Keith Iddon ● 4788d

Its too distressing to think about how beef, lamb or chicken come to be on our plates, let alone the thought of how veal, lobsters or crabs are prepared. I put those thoughts quickly to the back of my mind - come to think of it, it'll soon be time for some tender and tasty new season lamb!

Gerry Tan ● 4788d

Guys, guys, ...I nearly replied with what I am about to say below to Keith's message but...Anyway - here it is:  it is very easy to construe offence where none was intended on message boards like this so it is always worth sitting back for a moment and just considering whether there is another way of taking what was written before responding.Let's all play nice together.  :-)

Tony Colliver ● 4788d

Get over yourself.Perhaps Keith I don’t share your intellect I thought that you were rude to me in the first instance getting over myself is easy but can you I think not.

Tony Maxey ● 4788d

I will be asking about every piece of beef,lamb or chicken that I buy from now on.

Keith Iddon ● 4788d

I don't know why you are so rude Tony.You mentioned how the cow getting the bolt treatment waqs so upsetting.This,as you apparently now know,is not a feature of halal slaughter.Get over yourself.

Keith Iddon ● 4788d

Re  Trade at local butchers is up 20%         xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx good, there are not many  bona fide "European " butchers left anywhere, even in provincial towns and cities, certainly not compared to how many there were. There were many in Ealing when I came here  and now there are only 3. Luckhurts, Richardsons and one in South Ealing Rd, all far apart whereas there used to be some almost next to each other. The supermarkets  killed the traditional  butchers and for some reason I find the pre-wrapped  type of meat from a supermarket to be tasteless, why that should be I don't know but have reverted to the traditional  butcher, who seem to be cheaper and the meat more " natural tasting "?.        Every other shop  now advertises halal meat available from them. So  the traditional British butchers have been replaced by halal ones, reflecting of  course the change in the population.

Tony Price ● 4788d

Keith I am not a moron I know the difference between the two and I can follow a thread. Although I love meat preferable steak rare to medium with a nice pepper sauce. I do not wish to visit the place where it is killed. I said in my post that the opening scene was disturbing .To see anything killed is upsetting be it animal or other living being. I do not like the Halal way in which the animal is murdered. I do try to stay away from anything Halal but it’s impossible nowadays .If something has to die for our own gratification then make it as painless as possible.  By the way I have tried horse on several occasions there’s no big deal also a few polish sausages are made from donkey meat. All this seems to be about is getting what you pay for well I don’t think that’s happened to me in over twenty years

Tony Maxey ● 4788d

Re  has sexual intercourse with them those animals            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  and what does that mean, it means such activities do take place and possibly almost commonplace, whereas if two human beings of the same gender unite, they are to be stoned to death. Methinks someone has got their priorities a tad skewed?.

Tony Price ● 4788d

Trade at local butchers is up 20% overall since Dobbingate broke.Burgers and other processed meats are up 30%.

Tony Colliver ● 4788d

Some truly hilarious rules in that link.In particular, apparently muslims are only allowed to eat horse if they shag them first!!!You think I'm making this up don't you?Well, here's the quote:"2640. * It is Makrooh to eat the meat of a horse, a mule or a donkey. If a person has sexual intercourse with them those animals become haraam..."

Tony Colliver ● 4788d

Re  industrial supply chain jsut don's want us to know.             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  half the time Peter I don't think they know themselves what really is in  the food, but one aspect which has surprised me is how long the " supply  chain " is, loads of companies  throughout many countries all involved in rearing, transporting, slaughtering, butchering, storing and ending with one company selling the meat to some company to manufacture the item  to pass on  to another one to sell. So the profit made by each link in the chain must add to the eventual cost whereas in the past  the  animal would be slaughtered locally, taken by a local butcher  and sold in his shop.

Tony Price ● 4789d

In a sense the real argument about what is in our food and how the big corporations and the industrial supply chain jsut don's want us to know. The government are also part of the problem and their denials on the safety front are really not trustworthy. The underlying issue is massive.

Peter Chadburn ● 4789d

Re hence they are conscious throughout the ordeal.             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I don't wish to  labour the point re halal/shekita slaughter and have made reference before re the ghastly situation of Australian cattle in Indosesian slaughter houses and whereas I can't find the original " video " I part watched re that, this is the best I can find  at the present time, which is long winded but factual, plus what the video does not say is the export of live animals  has subsequently been resumed:-          http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/australian-outrage-over-indonesian-slaughterhouse-allegations/444104

Tony Price ● 4789d

I am not sure you have understood Tony.The cow that had the bolt to the had was an example of how cows are slaughtered in the non halal way ie: stunned first like an anaesthetic...the unfortunate wretched creatures who are slaughtered in the hal/kosher way are not stunned and do not have theirs spinal cords cut,hence they are conscious throughout the ordeal.

Keith Iddon ● 4789d

Maybe this is not the link. I'll try to find it.

Tony Maxey ● 4789d

Just tried to watch the video on the Chiswick forum unfortunately I couldn’t watch it all. I am not really a squeamish person but that turned my guts. The opening scene where the cow gets a bolt through the head is disturbing enough what follows is totally barbaric. But there again what chance has their food source for a religion that doesn’t have any regard for human life if you don’t belong to it.I think this is the link if anyone has the stomach for it http://www.al-islam.org/laws/hunting.html

Tony Maxey ● 4789d

Re  see the reality of halal slaughter              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    The M C B have  issued the following headed article, so they on behalf of the 3 million Muslims in the UK don't think too much fuss is being made, plus automatically in the process they also  say the rest of us are entitled to know EXACTLY what we are eating. :-    " MCB NewsIt is the community’s right that whatever is sold as Halal is in fact HalalMonday 18 February 2013 "

Tony Price ● 4789d

If you want to see the reality of halal slaughter,have a look at the horsemeat thread on the Chiswick site,about 3/4 of the way down.Be warned though,it is not for the squeamish and is quite upsetting.

Keith Iddon ● 4791d

Re  That, to me, is a bigger problem          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx both are equally important, we have the right to know exactly what we are eating, how it was slaughtered and one could add where and when. To say there is too much fuss over the horsemeat scandal is very wrong in my opinion and thankfully the various agencies throughout the EU and beyond are getting to the grips of the situation. ALL meat should be labelled what it is and how slaughtered, whether in a supermarket, butcher shop or place of eating. To say to someone who wants beef and pays accordingly  but gets horse they are making too much fuss I think is very wrong. And on the question of halal, as you so rightly say, 2% of the population are the tail wagging the dog of the 97.5 %, which is not right, not as though the absurdity is  at the behest of that 2% but by our lickspittle politicians and persons in positions in the food industry. They should be held to account and publicly made to answer for their  " sins ".

Tony Price ● 4791d

Quite.Pandering to the 2% really gets up my nose.The whole unlabelled halal thing is very annoying.Which local butcher will not confirm whether their meat is halal please?

Tony Colliver ● 4792d

Here's something more serious, but not entirely unrelated: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/9870692/Slavery-not-horse-meat-is-the-real-scandal-on-our-doorstep.html

M Duley ● 4792d

I don't think it's so much the fact that we've been eating horsemeat as the fact that we don't know if we are also ingesting Bute that some horses may have been injected with.  I also object to the fact that people are getting away with labelling horsemeat as beef because it's so much cheaper than beef and are therefore making a dubious profit.  I'm slightly more concerned about the fact that all the supermarkets apart from one (Morrisons) are now selling all Halal meat and  not telling us.  Why should we pander to 2% of the population and why can't it be labelled as such so we can make an informed choice?  Even my local butchers won't confirm or deny if their meat is Halal. That, to me, is a bigger problem than the possibility of eating horsemeat occasionally.

Gail Clark ● 4792d