Forum Topic

High quality prints and scans off old glass plate photo negativers

Anybody know of a reliable place preferably in Ealing area that can do this?  -  recently acquired a slightly historically important c100 year old glass negative I want to get high quality prints and digital scans off for me and a few others interested before passing it on for safe keeping of the appropriate archive.Tried scanning on my own reasonably powerful computer and scanner equipment at 1200x1200 dpi (the highest that produces manageable file size) and the result is hopeless.

Chris Veasey ● 4857d31 Comments

"p.s.still puzzled by your theory that light being reflected from the backing of print enhances contrast,silver salts are transparent until processed so can't have any masking/enhancing effect.... or can they?"The increase in effective contrast happens when you view the final print, that is when light goes through the emulsion twice, no light enters from the back. One consequence of having a relatively low contrast negative is that you can quote the effective film speed to give a greater exposure tolerance, not possible with a reversal film designed to give best results as a transparency for projection."pps Think we worked in same building @ KA."I did a couple of years as a T.O. in studios, then moved to OBs as a T.A when OBs moved in from Wembley. Much of the time I was on Unit 4, with occasional comms attatchments amongst others.

Chris Bell ● 4850d

Right thanks for the clarification Chris,so is it fair to say that flashing reduces contrast and would have no place in the copying of plate negatives which is what this thread was about?At the moment I'm an awful long way from home and using a mobile phone so I'll keep it short.p.s.still puzzled by your theory that light being reflected from the backing of print enhances contrast,silver salts are transparent until processed so can't have any masking/enhancing effect.... or can they? pps Think we worked in same building @ KA.

Tony Wood ● 4850d

It was easy to set type around any photos or graphics. Papier Mache was hammered on to the original flat proof layout, and that was used as a mould to create the final printing drum, Only the original film was sensitive to all colours, so much could be done under safelight conditions. The specialist Litho camera used a lens and shutter mounted in a dividing wall, with the original print one side and litho film in the next room.When I watched the Daily Mirror demo, one of the photographers asked the first lady walking past the door (who turned out to be a local nurse) to act as a model, and she joined us as we watched the process up to the first proof stage. From memory, it took little more than an hour from taking the pictures to seeing the first print from the proofing table.

Chris Bell ● 4850d

My great friend Mark is a press photographer and still has his dev kit. Including a n old coke can opener which he used for opening 35mm film cannisters.He was telling me it used to be easy with Black and white and pushing film beyond it's maximum by heating the developer up and extending the times for getting images from poorly lit night football games etc.But he was telling me when they switched to colour film the paper was having to cough up a fortune to hotels for ruining their bathrooms as the colour chemicals used to permanently stain the bathroom sinks and surfaces.Even when wiring pictures went digital, film was till used. But now it's all digital but he says he lost his dev man and wireman and has to do the jobs of 3 people so it's more pressure than ever to turn around pictures quickly.

Michael Brandt ● 4850d

I often worked on Match of the Day and similar programmes. The press photographers could develop a film either using a changing bag to transfer the film to a developing tank or even develop the film while still in the cassette. This was often done mid-winter in the open, perhaps using a tea and coffee sales area. The film would be dried using a hair drier, then scanned and the output sent as a file via dial-up.

Chris Bell ● 4851d

Yes me too - and all to produce the day after's fish and chip wrapping.I'd long wondered if they'd had and used fax technology many years before it was available to the rest of us.

Chris Veasey ● 4851d

Fascinating.I always wondered how they did that.

Tony Colliver ● 4851d

Newspapers used to produce an ordinary print, then photograph the print through an out of focus screen which had a fine grid pattern similar to a wire mesh. They used an extremely high contrast "litho" film which gave either black or white, no greys, and the combination of the smooth grey scale of the original picture cut by an out of focus grid resulted in an array of different sized dots. This dot pattern was then used to expose a photosensitive coating on a metal plate which was then etched to give the final surface for litho printing.Unfortunately this still did not give the best result unless the litho film was given a second timed exposure (flashed) with white light before it was developed to get the best range of dot sizes.I was invited to a demo by the Daily Mirror team, where this was all done as a time critical operation, so a roll of film would be developed, rinsed, fast dried, examined, and selected prints made. The exposed prints were passed to a room where people stood with their hands in the chemicals all day ensuring best possible quality. The print density range would be measured, the litho film given the calculated exposures, developed, and the metal plate made.This was used to produce the first proof prints on a flat printing table. If all was well, a metal cast was made from the flat layout which was then curled to produce a drum which could churn out thousands of newspapers.

Chris Bell ● 4851d

Enough of this nonsense,can you please explain without going too far off subject just what the beneficial effects of "flashing a negative" as mentioned in one of your previous posts. Just that, no F stops, no emulsion density,just the flashing advantange. Ta!

Tony Wood ● 4851d

Most people understand the system of stops, where the real amount of light hitting the negative or the digital sensor is doubled or halved if the effective illumination changes by one stop, but the emulsion density change on a non-linear low contrast plate would be harder to guess. Perhaps the numbers refer to the binary measurement of the emulsion density, but that is not the same as exposure stops.

Chris Bell ● 4852d

He could have explained that Greyscale means the tones of grey betweem solid black and pure white.Also described as 'Shades of Grey' but somehow that has a different meaning now!!

Michael Brandt ● 4852d

Thanks to you and others for all the info and suggestions - had no idea what I was starting when I asked what I naively thought would be a simple question!I have had a kind offer via one of our number here for his knowledgeable and skilled son to do the biz from my neg when he has time after the current silly season is over, so I'm gratefully taking that up.

Chris Veasey ● 4852d

"Sorry, but I do not know what your grey values mean, they could even be just numbers used by your photo manipulation software."  It's worse than that Chris,I thought about using decibels but decided that 10Log10 and all that jazz would have been irritating to most.   Instead I decided to use my own unit,the erksal,it's a useful log/linear ratio scale that runs erksal,derksal,trerksal,quadrerksal,quintrerkrsal etc. I find it handy for allsorts,greyscale,decibels,light years,quarks, B.S. and more. 

Tony Wood ● 4853d

I have an "AGFA" branded Studioscan IIsi which does that, driven by Linux under the real manufacturer name and connected via SCSI.Photoshop may be good, but modern high definition blockbuster movies now use Linux for much faster processing (perhaps 10x), and frame by frame manipulation is done using CinePaint at very high colour resolution, which is not only good and fast but also free.

Chris Bell ● 4854d

A few years ago I was given the following details of a place near Pinewood Studios don't know if they are still there and never used them in the end -  the glass plate is still awaiting printing.pdi@pinewoodshepperton.com01753 656299

Peter Wright ● 4854d

On glass though the light causes refraction which confuses the scanner.This affects flatbed scanners but not proper films scanners which pass light through and scan from the emulsion surface.kodak did a superb range of pro scanners but failed to update them and provide adequate support They were £3000 a piece and all ended up in the work skip after they failed to provide an alternative to SCSI connections which become obsolete. And no software update to run on Mac OSX which is the norm for media use.One of those scanned glass plates up to 5x4 really well albeit only to 16mb

Michael Brandt ● 4854d

Negatives are exposed on the emulsion side, then used to produce prints with the emulsion side facing the print, and there is nothing to stop you scanning from the emulsion side, then reversing it digitally if necessary.

Chris Bell ● 4854d

None of the proprietary digital equipment will cope with photographic plates as the glass thickness cannot be calibrated and the glass causes focus issues. (The same as trying to shoot through a car windscreen or a double glazed window)There are scanners purpose built to cope with such items but they are £thousands to purchase and quite large. I use one at work but it is in constant use and needs daily calibration and a manual the size of a telephone book!The best way is to print them in the traditional way using an enlarger with a plate carrier and then scanning a decent print.You will then get a high degree of tonal range and a permanent image.There are specialists about but not many in London nowadays - the overheads are simply far too high to make the service affordable.There are a few courses teaching and refreshing older darkroom skills and offering self use facilities. It can be very rewarding pastime.I know of one chap Chris Bayley who prints form plates but is based in Malvern. If interested I'll dig out his details.

Michael Brandt ● 4854d

Sorry, but I do not know what your grey values mean, they could even be just numbers used by your photo manipulation software. I was referring to the emulsion on photographic paper, not the negative. Making a photographic print involved passing light through the negative once as the print emulsion is "exposed", but light travels through the print emulsion twice when viewed, once in each direction. Assuming black and white negatives and prints it was normal to end up with a slight increase in contrast. However the light sensitivty of photographic emulsions is not linear, so some gamma correction can help, and this is much easier using computer processing. It is even more difficult to get the best quality using litho printing without computer processing, as used in old newspapers, it was neccessary to "flash" the litho film material with white light to get a satisfactory result.

Chris Bell ● 4856d

I have been scanning the extended family's photo archive in recent months with pretty good results overall.I could give it a try on my gear here for you if you wish.Also - I have a couple of nephews who make their living with Photoshop who can do marvelous things to perk up a scan if needs be.

Tony Colliver ● 4856d

"Light is reflected by the paper backing of prints, but is filtered twice by the photographic emulsion, (both on entry and exit), giving the effect of very high contrast. The combination of negative plus print should give a total slight increase in contrast to compensate for the lack of colour."  Not too sure about that Chris,if we have a plate with say a darkest grey value of 2 and a lightest of 9, that gives a contrast (dynamic range) of 7,passing it through the negative again can't improve that,overall it will appear darker but the contrast will be the same(ish),the 2 will drop to 1 and the 9 to 8, contrast still 7.   If you repeat the process then the 1 becomes 0 (black in a negative)) and the 8 becomes 7, this is where the real trouble starts if we do it again the 0 has nowhere to go it can't get any blacker,but the 7 becomes 6 giving a new reduced contrast ratio of 6.  If you repeat the process long enough you end up with a uniform black negative.  Sorry that's as  clear as mud! But you may get the gist.

Tony Wood ● 4856d

Thanks Chris, no it's not large, just over 4x3 inches. Sounds like I'm on a loser trying to do this myself at home, so may go the professional route or get the archive I'm giving the neg to, to do it for me.

Chris Veasey ● 4856d

Thanks Tony, not sure my grubby old laptop screen up to that! - not to mention my less than state of the art camera equipment and limited competence as a photographer. At the moment, as it's only one negative, my inclination is to get the job done professionally if I can find some outfit not to far away, and provided they don't charge too many arms and legs. The alternative would be to get the archive I'm going to give the neg to, to give me scan and prionts free of charge - I certainly want to retain the lifetime right for myself, and maybe some other researchers on the subject concerned, to use and publish the shot.

Chris Veasey ● 4856d

Your plates are probably large, so a good quality flatbed scanner would probably produce a better result than a standard digital SLR. A plate negative could hold a high dynamic range, but would probably be developed to a relatively low contrast because it would normally be used to make prints on to paper. Light is reflected by the paper backing of prints, but is filtered twice by the photographic emulsion, (both on entry and exit), giving the effect of very high contrast. The combination of negative plus print should give a total slight increase in contrast to compensate for the lack of colour.A large plate negative could give excellent fine detail, so it needs to be scanned with a very large number of pixels.You need to produce a very large file containing a high number of pixels with a very accurate brightness sensitivty, so a large number of bits per pixel.A normal camera would struggle to cope.

Chris Bell ● 4856d

When I read your first post I though he needs a light box,then I read Nigels :o) . I pondered it for a while then I realised I was staring at a light box (my laptop screen),I thought that might do it.  I used a new Wordpad screen which has a large enough white area,laid the monitor flat on the table with a slide placed on top. I used my digital camera on a tripod and focused on the image,you'll need a camera with a delayed "take" facility otherwise you'll get camera shake when you press to button,and Bobs your uncle a close to perfect copy.  If you know anyone with Photoshop or Paintshop you could probably do any repairs to scratches and the like,but I'd suggest keeping the un retouched copy as well.

Tony Wood ● 4857d

Just the one, which makes it not worthwhile to knock up my own equipment.

Chris Veasey ● 4857d

Not necessarilly, but a decent camera and, more importantly, lens will capture details that a phone camera will miss.How many slides do you need to get images from?

Nigel Brooks ● 4857d

Ah thanks - all I normally use nowadays is my mobile phone camera, presumably useless for this sort of application.

Chris Veasey ● 4857d

DSLR = Digital SLR camera.

Tony Colliver ● 4857d

Thanks Nigel, sounds as if it's going to be more of a problem than I thought. What's a DSLR? My long-dead father and father in law were both serious photography hobbyists who might have tackled the home-made option - not sure if I have the competence or patience.

Chris Veasey ● 4857d

Chris there are very few companies who offer a 'hand finished' service and none that I know of in Ealing.One company, who actually do work for the Royal Household's Archives, is Digiscan based in Leatherhead. 01372 841071.Else you might like to try constructing a simple lightbox and using a DSLR to capture an image of the negative which you can then reverse and order prints in the conventional way.

Nigel Brooks ● 4857d