Forum Topic

Vegetarians

Are people veggies because they do not like taste of meat or for 'moral'reasons or both?I get the impression with a couple of friends of mine that it's more out of principal than anyhting else. Almost a smugness I cannot comprehend, a bit like going into a pub and ordering a coke (which I quite often do if I have  the car but no other time).

Simon Wycombe ● 4894d31 Comments

Your postulate is of limited value - as has been admireably shown by M Duley.Not that I didn't already understand the points made as, as a scientifically educated person, I like to read around these kinds of things quite widely, but it is nice to see that I am not the only one that thinks the claims made for your "evidence" are a little overblown to say the least.(For $10,000 a day I am prepared to swear that I believe in almost anything - including vegetarianism.  I draw the line at 'god'.  :-) )Anyway, it doesn't look like I will be inviting you to one of my BBQs anytime soon.

Tony Colliver ● 4893d

Re  see sunlight, to stretch its legs or spread its wings,          xxxxxxxxxxxxxx    well said Emily. To not be able doesn't bear thinking about.

Tony Price ● 4893d

Re  But what about the horse?      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    he's read enough, shut the barn door and bolted!. Now to throw a few spanners in the works. I read recently , medical opinion on saturated fats has changed  in that we need satutated fats ( as I can testify ) to protect our muscles. When my doctor put me on a low fat diet, I suffered tremendously with muscle pains, cramps etc. I also recently read a long article  that in older age, low cholesterol is dangerous, so I have stopped taking the blasted statins.          As to the question of vegetarian diets, the killing of animals to eat is not nice, and rearing them for that purpose, one could argue is immoral, and factory type of rearing downright disgusting. Having been brought up as a meat eater it is difficult to change but I refuse  to eat veal. Bearing in mind the way the animal is " reared " I just could not partake of it's flesh.  Many years ago I saw a film on TV  that took place a 100 years ahead  by which time earthwide morality had improved and one person said words to the effect " do you realise that years ago they actually had shops  where  parts of dead animals were hung up for people to buy, legs, feet, heads, tails, eyes, genitalia and all internal organs etc. How barbaric " Not far wrong if we think about it. It is just  the way humans have been brought  up and been accustomed to in this and many other aspects of life.

Tony Price ● 4893d

I am teaching it calculus (slowly).

John Arthur Forest ● 4893d

But what about the horse?

Bernadette Clover ● 4893d

The hints are there. Eating vegetarian (avoiding high fat gairy products) is clealry an advantage for many people in avoiding alzheimers and dementia, though it flies in the face of what burger chains and the farming industry would insist to be true. Not too different a scenario from that regarding herbal remedies when you consider that in many countries St Johns Wort is prescribed for deopression and is listed in pharmacopeia yet is frowned on here. There are those learned bodies that say that SSRIs don't work for depression. I would say that you are prejuduced against a healthy lifestyle and diet that protects against alzheimers and dementia; why I do not know - perhaps you do not want to change your ways and have bought in to the big pharma, bid company approach that is wrecking our planet (and us).If it gets one person to think about what they are doing and having a better, longer and more meaningful life I will say again: "Vegetarians don't get alzheimers"

John Arthur Forest ● 4893d

The hints are there. Eating vegetarian (avoiding high fat gairy products) is clealry an advantage for many people in avoiding alzheimers and dementia, though it flies in the face of what burger chains and the farming industry would insist to be true. Not too different a scenario from that regarding herbal remedies when you consider that in many countries St Johns Wort is prescribed for deopression and is listed in pharmacopeia yet is frowned on here. There are those learned bodies that say that SSRIs don't work for depression. I would say that you are prejuduced against a healthy lifestyle and diet that protects against alzheimers and dementia; why I do not know - perhaps you do not want to change your ways and have bought in to the big pharma, bid company approach that is wrecking our planet (and us).If it gets one person to think about what they are doing and having a better, longer and more meaningful life I will say again: "Vegetarians don't get alzheimers"

John Arthur Forest ● 4893d

I know all this already! I work for an organisation that treats Alzheimer's and dementia. Relatives of mine live with Alzheimer's and have died with dementia. I was just challenging your _entirely false_ and misleading statement, which is also contradicted by the studies you posted.

M. Duley ● 4894d

But your statement was not a hint at reduced risk, which is what those studies suggest. I don't think anybody is disputing that evidence here.You made an absolute statement: Vegetarians don't get Alzheimer's. Is that what you believe? If so, why? None of those studies make such an assertion.

M. Duley ● 4894d

What I am trying to say is that you have less chance of encountering alzheimers, dementia, and other neuro-degenrative diseases if you eat vegetarian rather than carnivore given the right dietary constituents (e.g avoiding high fat dairy products). These studies provide sufficient evidence for this approach, though the usefulness of fish in achieving an anti-neuro-degenerative diet surprised me. Again, more research is needed here.So I would suggest the diet components referred to in these studies to ward off neuro-degenerative disease long term.You can either play intellectual games with me till the cows come home, or you can learn something from the research referred to in the article citations and live a better and longer life: your choice!

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

People who eat badly/red meat have more chance of developing diabetes and hence the implication of dementia and alzheimers. Most studies cite lack of research explicitly on vegetarian diet effets. One of those cited does emphasize better diet as reducing risk of alzheimers and dementia and the mediterranean diet research also underlines this (though it does include fish). I would suggest reading the articles listed and eating more vegetables, pulses, grains, etc.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

Not sure if this was the point you were trying to make (or if you were just posting those for Simon's benefit so he can learn why some people choose to be veggies) but none of those studies concluded that vegetarians don't get Alzheimer's.

M. Duley ● 4894d

The TelegraphRed meat and butter 'could raise Alzheimer's risk'Eating too much red meat, butter and other foods that contain high levels of saturated fats could increase the risk of Alzheimer's, according to a study. By Stephen Adams, Medical Correspondent6:16PM BST 20 May 2012US researchers linked to Harvard University found older women who ate lots of food high in saturated fats had worse memories than others.By contrast, those who ate more monounsaturated fats - found in olive oil, sunflower oil, seeds, nuts and avocados - had better memories.Dr Oliva Okereke, from the Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, Mass., which is affiliated to Harvard Medical School, said: "When looking at changes in cognitive function, what we found is that the total amount of fat intake did not really matter, but the type of fat did."She and fellow researchers made their conclusions after looking at results from 6,000 women over 65, who carried out a series of mental tests over four years and answered questionnaires about their diet and lifestyle.Dr Okereke added: "Substituting in the good fat in place of the bad fat is a fairly simple dietary modification that could help prevent decline in memory."Having a poor memory can be a harbinger of Alzheimer's in elderly people, although the former by no means always leads to the latter.The report is published in the journal Annals of Neurology.It follows other research showing a link between high cholesterol and a higher risk of developing Alzheimer's, the most common form of dementia.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

Expert Rev Neurother. 2011 May;11(5):677-708.Diet and Alzheimer's disease risk factors or prevention: the current evidence.Solfrizzi V, Panza F, Frisardi V, Seripa D, Logroscino G, Imbimbo BP, Pilotto A.SourceDepartment of Geriatrics, Center for Aging Brain, Memory Unit, University of Bari, Bari, Italy.AbstractPreventing or postponing the onset of Alzheimer's disease (AD) and delaying or slowing its progression would lead to a consequent improvement of health status and quality of life in older age. Elevated saturated fatty acids could have negative effects on age-related cognitive decline and mild cognitive impairment (MCI). Furthermore, at present, epidemiological evidence suggests a possible association between fish consumption, monounsaturated fatty acids and polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA; in particular, n-3 PUFA) and a reduced risk of cognitive decline and dementia. Poorer cognitive function and an increased risk of vascular dementia (VaD) were found to be associated with a lower consumption of milk or dairy products. However, the consumption of whole-fat dairy products may be associated with cognitive decline in the elderly. Light-to-moderate alcohol use may be associated with a reduced risk of incident dementia and AD, while for VaD, cognitive decline and predementia syndromes, the current evidence is only suggestive of a protective effect. The limited epidemiological evidence available on fruit and vegetable consumption and cognition generally supports a protective role of these macronutrients against cognitive decline, dementia and AD. Only recently, higher adherence to a Mediterranean-type diet was associated with decreased cognitive decline, although the Mediterranean diet (MeDi) combines several foods, micro- and macro-nutrients already separately proposed as potential protective factors against dementia and predementia syndromes. In fact, recent prospective studies provided evidence that higher adherence to a Mediterranean-type diet could be associated with slower cognitive decline, reduced risk of progression from MCI to AD, reduced risk of AD and a decreased all-cause mortality in AD patients. These findings suggested that adherence to the MeDi may affect not only the risk of AD, but also of predementia syndromes and their progression to overt dementia. Based on the current evidence concerning these factors, no definitive dietary recommendations are possible. However, following dietary advice for lowering the risk of cardiovascular and metabolic disorders, high levels of consumption of fats from fish, vegetable oils, nonstarchy vegetables, low glycemic index fruits and a diet low in foods with added sugars and with moderate wine intake should be encouraged. Hopefully this will open new opportunities for the prevention and management of dementia and AD.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

Arch Neurol. 2010 Jun;67(6):699-706. Epub 2010 Apr 12.Food combination and Alzheimer disease risk: a protective diet.Gu Y, Nieves JW, Stern Y, Luchsinger JA, Scarmeas N.SourceThe Taub Institute for Research in Alzheimer's Disease and the Aging Brain, Columbia University, New York, NY, USA.AbstractOBJECTIVE:To assess the association between food combination and Alzheimer disease (AD) risk. Because foods are not consumed in isolation, dietary pattern (DP) analysis of food combination, taking into account the interactions among food components, may offer methodological advantages.DESIGN:Prospective cohort study.SETTING:Northern Manhattan, New York, New York.PATIENTS OR OTHER PARTICIPANTS:Two thousand one hundred forty-eight community-based elderly subjects (aged > or = 65 years) without dementia in New York provided dietary information and were prospectively evaluated with the same standardized neurological and neuropsychological measures approximately every 1.5 years. Using reduced rank regression, we calculated DPs based on their ability to explain variation in 7 potentially AD-related nutrients: saturated fatty acids, monounsaturated fatty acids, omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, vitamin E, vitamin B(12), and folate. The associations of reduced rank regression-derived DPs with AD risk were then examined using a Cox proportional hazards model. Main Outcome Measure Incident AD risk.RESULTS:Two hundred fifty-three subjects developed AD during a follow-up of 3.9 years. We identified a DP strongly associated with lower AD risk: compared with subjects in the lowest tertile of adherence to this pattern, the AD hazard ratio (95% confidence interval) for subjects in the highest DP tertile was 0.62 (0.43-0.89) after multivariable adjustment (P for trend = .01). This DP was characterized by higher intakes of salad dressing, nuts, fish, tomatoes, poultry, cruciferous vegetables, fruits, and dark and green leafy vegetables and a lower intake of high-fat dairy products, red meat, organ meat, and butter.CONCLUSION:Simultaneous consideration of previous knowledge regarding potentially AD-related nutrients and multiple food groups can aid in identifying food combinations that are associated with AD risk.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

Nutritional Neuroscience 2012 Jan;15(1):1-9.Effects of natural antioxidants in neurodegenerative disease.Albarracin SL, Stab B, Casas Z, Sutachan JJ, Samudio I, Gonzalez J, Gonzalo L, Capani F, Morales L, Barreto GE.SourceDepartamento de Nutrición y Bioquímica, Facultad de Ciencias, Pontificia Universidad Javeriana, Bogotá D.C., Colombia.AbstractPolyphenols are secondary metabolites with antioxidant properties and are abundant in the diet. Fruits, vegetables, herbs, and various drinks (tea, wine, and juices) are all sources of these molecules. Despite their abundance, investigations into the benefits of polyphenols in human health have only recently begun. Phenolic compounds have received increasing interest because of numerous epidemiological studies. These studies have suggested associations between the consumption of polyphenol-rich aliments and the prevention of chronic diseases, such as cancer, cardiovascular diseases, and neurodegenerative diseases. More specifically, in the last 10 years literature on the neuroprotective effects of a polyphenol-rich diet has grown considerably. It has been demonstrated, in various cell culture and animal models, that these metabolites are able to protect neuronal cells by attenuating oxidative stress and damage. However, it remains unclear as to how these compounds reach the brain, what concentrations are necessary, and what biologically active forms are needed to exert beneficial effects. Therefore, further research is needed to identify the molecular pathways and intracellular targets responsible for polyphenol's neuroprotective effects. The aim of this paper is to present various well-known dietary polyphenols and their mechanisms of neuroprotection with an emphasis on Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

Current Aging Science. 2012 Sep 27. [Epub ahead of print]Mediterranean Diet and Dementia of the Alzheimer Type.Vassallo N, Scerri C.SourceDepartment of Pathology Faculty of Medicine and Surgery University of Malta, Msida MSD 2080, Malta. charles.scerri@um.edu.mt.AbstractDementia of the Alzheimer type is the most common form of dementia affecting mostly the elderly population. It is a progressive and fatal neurodegenerative disorder with characteristic neuropathology and clinical symptomology. In the coming years, the number of individuals with Alzheimer's disease (AD) will increase as the elderly population worldwide is expected to grow significantly thus putting an added strain on national health care systems as well as caregivers who will inevitably carry most of the care burden. Thus it has been suggested that early intervention strategies which delay or halt the disease progression will have a strong impact on clinical outcomes. Changes in lifestyle habits such as diet modification or supplementationhave been indicated as probable protective factors for a number of chronic conditions including AD. Particular attention has recently been devoted to the Mediterranean diet which is rich in the antioxidants Vitamins C and E, polyunsaturated fatty acids and polyphenolic compounds. Several in vitro, animal and population-based studies reported a positive effect between adherence to a Mediterranean diet and AD prevention, although contrasting views remain. This review will focus on the latest developments and findings in the ongoing research investigating the relationship between Mediterranean diet and its major constituents in AD onset and progression.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

American Diabetes AssociationDiabetes Spectrum February 2012 vol. 25 no. 1 38-44 Preparing to Prescribe Plant-Based Diets for Diabetes Prevention and Treatment    Caroline Trapp, MSN, APRN, BC-ADM, CDE and    Susan Levin, MS, RDThe number of people worldwide with type 2 diabetes is expected to double by 2030.1 In the United States, diabetes affects ~ 26 million people of all ages, about one-fourth of whom are not yet diagnosed.2 Despite the availability of a wide range of pharmacological treatments and the best efforts of diabetes educators and other health care professionals, good control of diabetes and its comorbidities remains elusive for much of the population, as evidenced by rates of cardiovascular morbidity and mortality that are two to four times higher than those of people who do not have diabetes.2Although dietary habits and body weight play undisputed roles in type 2 diabetes, the question of what eating pattern best addresses glycemia, cardiovascular risk factors, and weight control remains controversial. The uniform, calorie-controlled diabetic diet plans of the past have been replaced by individualized meal-planning approaches, and in more recent years, nutrition guidance has focused on carbohydrate counting and minimizing saturated and trans fats. With the release of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans3 came praise for plant-based eating patterns, which have been extensively studied for weight management and disease prevention and treatment.Individuals following a plant-based eating pattern typically consume fewer calories and less fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol and have lower BMIs than nonvegetarians. They also consume more fiber, potassium, and vitamin C. In prospective studies of adults, compared to nonvegetarian eating patterns, vegetarian eating patterns have been associated with lower prevalence rates of type 2 diabetes,4 cardiovascular disease (CVD),5 hypertension,6 and obesity7,8 and reduced medical care usage.9 Both the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and the American Diabetes Association (ADA) now include well-planned, plant-based eating patterns (vegetarian and vegan) as a meal-planning option in their nutrition recommendations for people with diabetes.10,11 This article provides a brief discussion of research on plant-based eating patterns, relevant nutrition issues, and practical applications for clinicians. Next SectionPrevention of Type 2 DiabetesDiabetes prevalence in the United States is lower among vegetarians than nonvegetarians.12–15 In two large Adventist cohort studies (n = 25,698 and n = 60,903), the prevalence of diagnosed diabetes was 1.6–2.0 times higher among nonvegetarians than among vegetarians or vegans.12,15 Part of the difference is attributable to higher body weight among nonvegetarians, but much of the difference persists after adjustment for body weight.A 2009 study14 found that, among a range of diets from vegan to nonvegetarian, as consumption of animal products increased, so did diabetes prevalence, ranging from 2.9% in vegans to 7.8% among individuals with unlimited consumption of animal products. The article goes on.See:http://spectrum.diabetesjournals.org/content/25/1/38.full

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

November 4, 2011, doi: 10.1177/1559827611425762 AMERICAN JOURNAL OF LIFESTYLE MEDICINE May/June 2012 vol. 6 no. 3 250-267 Health Implications of a Vegetarian DietA Review    Kate Marsh, BSc, MNutrDiet, PhD    Carol Zeuschner, BSc, MSc    Angela Saunders, BS, MA    Northside Nutrition and Dietetics, Chatswood, Australia    Kate Marsh, BSc, MNutrDiet, PhD, Northside Nutrition and Dietetics, 74/47 Neridah Street, Chatswood NSW 2067, Australia e-mail: kate@nnd.com.au.AbstractThere is now a significant amount of research that demonstrates the health benefits of vegetarian and plant-based diets, which have been associated with a reduced risk of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and some types of cancer as well as increased longevity. Vegetarian diets are typically lower in fat, particularly saturated fat, and higher in dietary fiber. They are also likely to include more whole grains, legumes, nuts, and soy protein, and together with the absence of red meat, this type of eating plan may provide many benefits for the prevention and treatment of obesity and chronic health problems, including diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Although a well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet can meet all the nutritional needs of an individual, it may be necessary to pay particular attention to some nutrients to ensure an adequate intake, particularly if the person is on a vegan diet. This article will review the evidence for the health benefits of a vegetarian diet and also discuss strategies for meeting the nutritional needs of those following a vegetarian or plant-based eating pattern.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition© 2003 American Society for Clinical NutritionType 2 diabetes and the vegetarian diet1,2,3,4David JA Jenkins, Cyril WC Kendall, Augustine Marchie, Alexandra L Jenkins, Livia SA Augustin, David S Ludwig,    Neal D Barnard, and James W AndersonAuthor AffiliationsFrom the Clinical Nutrition & Risk Factor Modification Center (DJAJ, CWCK, AM, ALJ, and LSAA) and the Department of Medicine, Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism (DJAJ), St Michael’s Hospital, Toronto; the Department of Nutritional Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto (DJAJ, CWCK, AM, and LSAA); the Department of Medicine, Children’s Hospital, Boston (DSL); the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Washington, DC (NDB); and the VA Medical Center, Graduate Center for Nutritional Sciences, University of Kentucky, Lexington (JWA).AbstractBased on what is known of the components of plant-based diets and their effects from cohort studies, there is reason to believe that vegetarian diets would have advantages in the treatment of type 2 diabetes. At present there are few data on vegetarian diets in diabetes that do not in addition have weight loss or exercise components. Nevertheless, the use of whole-grain or traditionally processed cereals and legumes has been associated with improved glycemic control in both diabetic and insulin-resistant individuals. Long-term cohort studies have indicated that whole-grain consumption reduces the risk of both type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. In addition, nuts (eg, almonds), viscous fibers (eg, fibers from oats and barley), soy proteins, and plant sterols, which may be part of the vegetarian diet, reduce serum lipids. In combination, these plant food components may have a very significant impact on cardiovascular disease, one of the major complications of diabetes. Furthermore, substituting soy or other vegetable proteins for animal protein may also decrease renal hyperfiltration, proteinuria, and renal acid load and in the long term reduce the risk of developing renal disease in type 2 diabetes. The vegetarian diet, therefore, contains a portfolio of natural products and food forms of benefit for both the carbohydrate and lipid abnormalities in diabetes. It is anticipated that their combined use in vegetarian diets will produce very significant metabolic advantages for the prevention and treatment of diabetes and its complications.To read further please go to:http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/610S.abstract?sid=5b10b0ac-f7ca-4947-bdfb-53836428c691

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

The NHS, which can hopefully be relied on as a neutral and expert source of information, recommends cutting down on red and processed meat, because there is likely to be a link between such meats and bowel cancer: http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Goodfood/Pages/meat.aspx. I'm not a vegetarian but do try to buy free range meat. If I'm going to eat an animal I think it's fair that the animal should have had the chance to see sunlight, to stretch its legs or spread its wings, and generally live a life free from constant pain. If you found out that your neighbour was keeping a dog imprisoned in a wire cage so small it was unable to turn around, you would probably call the RSPCA - yet these are the types of conditions non free-range pigs, chickens and other animals in some European factory "farms" are kept in.

Emily Heath ● 4894d

You've got a talking horse?  That's really cool.

Bernadette Clover ● 4894d

You can tell a horse that vegetarians don't get Alzheimer's, but it'll probably point out that they do.Yes, diabetics have a significantly increased chance of developing Alzheimer's. Including diabetic vegetarians.

M. Duley ● 4894d

You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink! Other studies show links between diabetes and alzheimers. Overall, it seems that if you can reduce your intake of red meat, alcohol, etc., and live more healthily you can reduce your chances of getting diabetes, and hence alzheimers while helping reduce global warming.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

Even PETA - a fairly fanatical animal rights group - contradict your earlier post in their (entirely unreferenced) article, which suggests there is a reduced risk, not that vegetarians "don't get" Alzeimer's.

M. Duley ● 4894d

Or you could try:http://www.peta.org/living/vegetarian-living/alzheimers.aspx

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

However, as I am feeling generous, might I suggest the following link: http://alzheimersweekly.com/content/can-vegetarians-escape-alzheimers

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

I have given you a very valuable postulate. If what I say is right then it might be in your interest to do some further research. I charge $10,000 a day for research so you are getting a valuable free pointer from research already done.Disprove? I leave it to you!

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

> Veggies don't get alzeimersROFL!I'm gonna have to ask you for some hard evidence on that one I'm afraid.  :-)

Tony Colliver ● 4894d

Some people tend towards vegeterianism for health reasons. Veggies don't get alzeimers, dementia etc. which is caused by meat-sourced cholesterol molecules in the brian; avoiding red meat (and alcohol) does wonders for blood pressure and the build up of cholesterol in the arteries. It is about rising above the "Evening Standard" big business way of thinking.

John Arthur Forest ● 4894d

Really? Did you ask your friends, or did you just get the impression of smugness from their general demeanour? Maybe you just have unpleasant friends.Some people are vegetarian because they don't enjoy the taste of meat.Some people are vegetarian because they feel unwell after eating meat.Some people are vegetarian because they have health concerns over the quality and safety of meat that comes out of intensive industry.Some people are vegetarian because they have moral concerns over the treatment of animals in the various meat producing industries.Some people are vegetarian because they disagree outright with the principle of killing animals for food.Some people are vegetarian because of their religious beliefs.There will probably be as many more reasons as there are vegetarians.

M. Duley ● 4894d