Forum Topic

20 mph speed limit

The council have recently initiated a 20 mph speed limit along Pitshanger Lane, Brunner road and into Brunswick Road in W5.  I am told this will be self policing!  Judgeing by my observations very few drivers are observing the new limit in spite of there being 20 mph markings on the roads. There is a 7.5 t weight limit existing at the Eastern end of the area concerned and successive Councils have never brought a prosocution on offenders, of which there is a high number why, because they cannot or will not, police the restriction.  Why is money wasted on these schemes, the cost of signs and road markings when there is no chance of them being enforced!

David Campbell Rogers ● 4903d50 Comments

I sometimes find a parked vehicle on the side of the road facing the on coming traffic. What advantage does parking on the right side of the road give the driver using his Vehicle have, to start a U-Turn in the face of traffic flowing the opposite way. Is the Driver courting a Citation .?

Os A Whittle ● 4892d

Personally, I am all in favour of 20 MPH speed limits throughout Ealing with the exception of trunked, A and B roads. There is no reason to travel faster on the parked-up narrow roads of Ealing. It would also help cyclists a great deal and cost Ealing residents less via their council taz payments in terms of cycle lanes and paths and cycling signage on dual-use pavements which would no longer be required except on the A and B roads. Cyclists belong on the roads (NOT the pavements) where lower speed limits should mitigate their vulnerability.

John Arthur Forest ● 4892d

Ultimately these signs are put up not to catch people speeding but to increase road safety. The majority of people will slow down when they see a 20 mph sign and it is surprising how slow that actually feels. This will serve to slow the speed of those who ignore the signs.It is difficult to set up monitoring of speed over short distances and I believe there are legal constraints as to using devices like cameras.

Paul Cavanagh ● 4892d

Thanks, Tony.

Rosa Popham ● 4896d

Re  Is this being done in order to keep us 'girls' quiet???            xxxxxxxxxxxx    no Rosa, of course not, apart from which I doubt it would  be possible (  and certainly not desireable ! )

Tony Price ● 4898d

This topic is starting to sound like Top Gear. Is this being done in order to keep us 'girls' quiet???

Rosa Popham ● 4898d

Re    white flight from Southall, Mayfield Ave.?           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  no, it was I am sure Masefield Ave/ Rd ?. And I can assure you my friend and his parents, neighbours and local friends were not in favour of mass immigration. That they felt obliged to be displaced persons from their own habitat I regard as a dreadful situation  to be in, and those on these forums, such as the Raspberry Blower from Old Southall Town and his multi doppelgangers who not only uphold but advocate it and more involving the displacement of persons for foreigners to move in and take over is the most foul form of racism  possible. Makes one wonder what these Forums are, who owns them, who runs them and why?.

Tony Price ● 4901d

I know both, and completely agree they are hazardous. Even 30 mph would be reckless exactly because of poor visibility. Transit size vans parked on junctions are especially lethal. Leighton Road is as bad. I had a very near miss there a few years ago when a woman in a huge BMW sailed straight across, missing my motorcycle by inches. She completely failed to spot there was a junction at all. My son was less lucky, he had a Golf pull into his path - again he was on a motorcycle - due to a large white van parked on the junction. He fell off trying to avoid the car and had his leg in plaster for 6 weeks.I have lost count of the number of collisions and near misses I have seen at the junction of Coldershaw Road with Oaklands. One guy lost a leg after being hit in the driver's door by another car running the junction. 50 yards down the road there was an amazing accident where Seward Road crosses Oaklands Rd, which involved 5 cars, one ran the junction and hit another, then 3 others managed to run into the wreck. Speed was not an issue, nobody was hurt. It was just 4 total idiots not paying attention, and one unlucky guy who got T-boned who probably wasn't doing anything wrong. None of these accidents would be avoided by a blanket 20mph limit. The roads are all humped so that nobody with any sense can exceed 20mph except momentarily if you don't mind wasting lots of fuel accelerating and braking. And all have humps on the approach to junctions.I just don't see what the point is of posting a 20mph limit that nobody will enforce, when humps already make excess speed pretty much impossible. The signage and regulation will all cost money, and will be ignored by anyone who has a mind to try and go faster. Unless we are saying that LBE has wasted untold amounts of money on humping the entire borough and humps are ineffective.All these things have unintended consequences. There is a great deal of research that shows that inappropriate limits that diverge from the natural limit of a given piece of road, whether too high or too low, actually increase accident rates. Driver attention is already overstretched by far too much signage. Humps cost lives by extending emergency services response times - if you talk to a fireman or ambulance driver they will tell you each hump adds around 10 seconds. I interviewed Lambeth Blue Watch a decade ago and they said they had been on callouts where the extra few minutes delay in reaching a fire 20 or 30 humps away had almost certainly cost a life. They estimated 1 fatality a year in Lambeth, and probably more due to ambulance response delayed by humps. I don't know the police position.Speed just isn't a big factor here. Junction design, worn stop lines and poor signageg, inhibited vision due to parked vehicles, and human stupidity and driver inattention are what need fixing. I'd rather see policy shaped by evidence, and money spent on what works rather than what merely looks like they're trying.

Tony Sleep ● 4901d

Re  Panzer tanks were built at the Skoda works btw.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx do not underestimate the skill and history of Skoda. Their  pre-war Superb was fantastic, a very competent and innovative company. Hermann G. wanted to get his hands on their factories, such was their skill, innovation and reputation. Was the Commies who ruined them,as lefties ruin everything, that is their aim and purpose. Red Robbo?

Tony Price ● 4902d

Have a google at Bonneville Skoda for a real eye opener...

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

Bought my Felicia when it was 5 yrs old and had it for 5 yrs.In that time all that went was an ignition coil.Panzer tanks were built at the Skoda works btw.

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

Re  I think diesel engines take time to bed in         xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    it's a fact and at min 10k. I noticed in my Octavia the mpg  got noticeably better at the 10k stage. The dealers told me Skoda build into the system for changes to take place when certain mileages are reached. So my Superb may do even better at that stage?.  Did you ever have trouble with the Felicia, I read in Briskoda they have trouble with the 5th gear wheel coming off or loose after a certain ( high ) mileage. Briskoda is very interesting and useful. Rapid looks good and the new Octavia fantastic.

Tony Price ● 4902d

I took advantage of the scarpage scheme in 2009 and Skoda gave a very generous £3500 instead of £2000 and I bought a new car at 50 yrs of age for the first time in my life.Before the Octavia I had a Skoda Felicia estate(that I traded in for scrappage)and before that a VW Jetta.Both were graet cars as is my diesel Octavia.It gets better and better to drive(only done 17000 miles in 3.5 years)and I think diesel engines take time to bed in and seem to get easier.I thought about the estate,but there is plenty of room for what I need it for and the seats fold in a couple of ways to maximise room as you know.I can get at least 3 sets of golf clubs in the boot with room to spare!

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

Re  Is that a Skoda Superb Tony?        xxxxxxxxxxxxx  for the 1st time in my life in 2003 I bought a new car, investigated intensively and concluded best buy was a Skoda Octavia 1.9 PD Estate. Phoned agents in S'ton who located a L & K within the UK and which I bought, discounted. Before that I had a Passat diesel estate but I found the Skoda to be better made ( go overboard to live down past record )and was the best car I had ever had, and I had had very many from the age of 17. I met someone from Skoda H O at the dealers in Greenford, who showed me a Skoda history book with a photo of the Beetle, but which was in fact a Skoda for whom F Porsche worked, designed the Beetle there,left and took the blue prints with him and " sold " them to Hitler. I suggested to this Shoda man that Skoda make an estate vesion of the Superb. I had my Octavia for 7 years  by which time it had done 27k and when the Superb Estate came out, I got interested. The new dealers in S'ton agreed a very high trade-in for it so I ordered a Superb Elegance with panoramic roof, which delayed it's construction from order time in early April to November, by which time the 140 bhp engine had changed from PD to CR. It is now 2 years old with  only 6800 on the clock, almost all motorway miles. Beautiful car.

Tony Price ● 4902d

Is that a Skoda Superb Tony?I have the Octavia.

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

Re  Ford Pop. Tony!        mmmmmmmmmmmmmnnn    glad to hear it Keith but I will stick to my  habits. As to your reference to the Ford Pop, never owned one but drove several, death traps. Transverse  cart springs front and rear, so over a certain speed if "swaying" started, which it often did, it got worse and worse. Very dangerous. Dear old friend  3 houses away from mine in Southampton still has one in the garage and which she and her husband have had from new. Apparently had driven to the top of Scotland in it, what a nightmare. Long since laid up and hubby was sat in the driver's seat it a few years back when all of a sudden the seat collapsed to the garage floor, woodworm!!.

Tony Price ● 4902d

Sorry typo Tony.It's about 970 rpm and it is what the dealer said to do and it works fine.Never a problem and is not labouring at all.Engine technology has advanced since the Ford Pop. Tony!

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

Re  You should be driving in 3rd gear at 20mph      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    now then Benjamin, I do what the Distributors told me when I asked re that to always get away in 1st unless I want to burn the clutch out. What you and Keith get up to makes me cringe, 5th gear at 870 rpm!, outrageous. Poor engine on the verge of collapse. Making an engine labour in any gear is bad for it, an automatic box is always in the right gear at any time any conditions and I guarantee it ain't in 5th at 20mph or 870 rpm. I often feel uneasy in mine in 6th gear at  45 when it starts to " object ".  As to my driving, when on Tues. pm I came back from Southampton I did no more than 82-3 mph or less than 65 until West London's traffic circa 5.30 pm and my mpg was showing an ave for the journey at 59.8, which for  Superb 11 2 ltr Estate does suggest I am not doing too much wrong?. Change your wicked ways, the pair of you!. Just been talking to an old friend who I haven't seen for years,  he and his parents in the mid 70's were part of the white flight from Southall, Mayfield Ave.? who can't currently drive his car due to a medical condition, the car being a '66 AC Cobra  6 ltr  which does 6 mpg so he said, 4 ?  chrome exhausts going along the outside of the car. He has always  liked exotic cars and I remember there used to be a small car sales very close to Ealing Common station in the early '70's ( not Andrews ) and who had for sale a beautiful condition Chevvy Corvette 2 tone red/white circa £1400 which Peter wanted us to buy between us, so he could drive it, he being 20 at the time, driving style mad as a hatter. I declined his suggestion.

Tony Price ● 4902d

"At 20 mph it is not possible to get out of 2nd gear" (Tony Price)You should be driving in 3rd gear at 20mph. I hope, Tony, you don't call yourself a good driver!  If you were, you would know why you should always start off in 2nd gear. If you don't know why, then I would advise (without wanting to sound rude or arrogant) you to take The Institute of Motoring's Advanced Driving course. You will find the other benefits of becoming a IAM member. Firstly, you will get a massive reduction in your car insurance (they only insure IAM drivers) and, for some reason, the same company offers house insurance that no other company can better on price. (I go to Lloyds in Ealing Broadway every January to take their "if we can't beat your quote we will give you £50 and always walk away with fifty notes - a great way to start the new year!)"Road accident statistics released today show deaths and serious injuries down for all groups except cyclists" (Nigel Brooks). Proportion of injuries to cyclists are actually down, because the increase of cyclists is far greater. They are the biggest growing group of road users."Then why wouldn't 10mph be better and 5mph better still?" (Tony Sleep)Less braking at 20mph too which increases road capacity that moves as a result. Furthermore, easier to maintain 20mph than 10mph without losing concentration by looking at your speedo. Someone will have a more erudite explanation.

Ben Owen ● 4902d

Re  a 1.9 TDI Golf engine.      xxxxxxxxxxxxxx same as mine but I would be careful making your engine " labour " in that gear at those revs?.

Tony Price ● 4902d

It has a 1.9 TDI Golf engine.

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

Re  Fielding school on Northcroft              xxxxxxxxxxxx neaer schools and  certain other establishments taken for granted, but not an overall blanket. And it doesn't matter what speed you are doing if some idiot  just steps of without looking. All academic to a certain extent as with the clogged up roads now, lucky to move at all. Forwards that is.

Tony Price ● 4902d

Re  into fifth at about 32mph and is doing about 870rpm.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxBlimey, you must have a VERY large and flexible engine. I doubt an automatic would get into 5th at those conditions. People scratching around at 30 mean I have no chance of  getting out of 3rd.

Tony Price ● 4902d

Well Tony, going along Northcroft Road, or Midhurst Road, there are a few times that I would have hit someone or a car if I had been going 30 mph, one, a teenager with head phones, walking across the road without looking, numerous occasions with cars pulling out from the side roads, especially now there is so many 'big' cars that block the view for the smaller ones. And with Fielding school on Northcroft, I think it is just sensible to slow down, and 20 mph is fine.

Jaz Brown ● 4902d

Many modern cars are low geared.Mine can be put into fifth at about 32mph and is doing about 870rpm.Very good for fuel economy.

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

According to some on the forum, going at 20mph is not efficient, due to not being able to change up a gear... However, this probably depends on your car. In our's, the engine normally runs at about 1800 rpm at 20mph (and a little over 2000 at 30) - I don't know what gear as it is automatic. But, I wouldn't want to go more than 20 on most of the streets around here as some of the humps (especially the inaptly named cushions) are so vicious.We have a speed hump almost outside the house. When it went in first it was nasty - if a truck went over it the house shook. It has been replaced by a gentler version, but it still ended up damaging my car. About 1.30am one morning someone sped along the road (sounded as if they were doing about 60mph), hit the speed hump and there was a loud bang... they managed to damage both doors - it would have cost about £1800 to repair (we haven't bothered as the likelihood it will get further dents is pretty high). Needless to say we try not to park near speed humps any more....

D Fox ● 4902d

I don't see what's wrong with this idea but it seems it's as popular with you guys as a fart in a spaceman's suit.It's a better idea that 20(too slow as will not be observed and not green) and 30( too fast and not acceptable).

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

I'm fascinated to know where these A/B roads are that can be driven at even 20mph without trashing suspension, engine mounts, sump and exhaust on the bloody humps every 25m. That was the WHOLE POINT of humps, slowing traffic down.

Tony Sleep ● 4902d

Then why wouldn't 10mph be better and 5mph better still?Alternatively, properly marked junctions and drivers paying attention would help. There have been dozens of these junction-running accidents in this area over the time I've lived here (since 1982). Speed really isn't the issue at all. It's just an easy, lazy target, with attractive revenue raising possibilities. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmtran/460/460we56.htm is the sanest possible contribution to this debate, and of course has been entirely ignored by Government.

Tony Sleep ● 4902d

Re  blanket 20 MPH limits are a disaster as far more fuel is burnt and emissions levels increase.      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      thank you, well said, good man!

Tony Price ● 4902d

Re  why can't it be done in Ealing?        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I would imagine the increase in air pollution would be tremendous. At 20 mph it is not possible to get out of 2nd gear, so the rpm is unnecessarily high, hence increased use of fuel and pollution produced.

Tony Price ● 4902d

Re  I think he got the push      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  I wish the humps would get the push as well. They serve no practical purpose, the 3  acrss the road variety being easily overcome by placing the vehicle suitably so all wheels are not affected, hence neither the sped. And the  full across the road type  are dangerous for ambulances, disabled persons etc, and must be a major contributing factor to air pollution because of the constant low gear work. Plus the damage to the vehicles themselves, front  suspensions  in particular and the front skirts on some cars. On the whole then, a useless disaster  costing taxpayers a fortune to boot.

Tony Price ● 4902d

'Area specific' speed reduction measures do work though.I live on a straight road where speeding at well in excess of the 30MPH limit was 'the norm'.Raising the pedestrian crossings has had the effect of dramatically reducing the incidence of speeders. There is, of course, still the occasional idiot who wants to use the humped crossings as a ski-jump (oh, the delight as their lowered vehicles leave bits of spoiler and exhaust in the 'touch-down' area). A 20MPH limit, which we know will not be enforced, will make no difference to them.Junction parking though is still an issue locally as vehicles are forced out into the traffic flow before they can see whether or not anything is on the road they are trying to join.

Nigel Brooks ● 4902d

This would be a compromise.

Keith Iddon ● 4902d

It's easy to cherry pick statistics to support either end of the argument. My view is that the balance is with 20mph; obviously yours is not.30mph is just as arbitrary and frankly, I'd rather cycle or walk in streets with lower car speeds. I'd also rather be hit by a car doing 20mph rather than 30mph if that comes to pass - that's purely down to physics!I do agree that measures above pure enforcement are required although the enforcement argument is something of a red herring as 20mph areas will receive the same enforcement as 30mph areas do now.

Sam Salisbury ● 4902d

"The reduction in injury caused by accidents at this speed is considerable"Actually it isn't. Both Portsmouth and Swindon are reviewing their 20 MPH 'blanket' limits as there has been no reduction in accident totals and an increase in injury accidents in Portsmouth and a rise, albeit of 'only' two (but still two) in fatalities in Swindon.Blanket bans are not the answer, particularly if they are not enforced. What is needed is 'sensitive' speed restrictions in terms of road tables and 'chicanes' to slow traffic where it is needed.From an environmental aspect blanket 20 MPH limits are a disaster as far more fuel is burnt and emissions levels increase.I do agree though that parking on junctions is a major cause of accidents. That is something that can and should be rigidly enforced by council staff.

Nigel Brooks ● 4902d

Every non A/B road in Ealing needs to be 20mph. The reduction in injury caused by accidents at this speed is considerable. Of course, it's hard to enforce given current constraints but will seep into people's minds eventually and become more widely accepted.I recently started driving again after not doing so for several years. The volume of traffic seems to have increased a little in Ealing but the more noticeable change is the amount of parked cars, leading visibility at many junctions on minor roads to be extremely limited. Slower speed around these junctions has got to be of benefit.

Sam Salisbury ● 4902d

Humps in the road - 20mph limits - chicanes - 'raised tables' - narrowings.  They are all designed for one purpose - to keep council staff in work.  (And, obviously, more grandiose and conspicuous than simply maintaining the road surfaces and repairing pot holes). 

Andy Horridge ● 4903d

I am so for the 20 mph speed limit, which has also been introduced to the roads around Northfields Ave. Only a few weeks ago there was a nasty accident when someone drove straight across Northcroft road from Salisbury Road without stopping. If the taxi travelling down Northcroft Croft Road (Who had the right of way) had been going 30 mph then I fear there would have been a fatality. 20 mph is fast enough down these side roads, especially when other roads have to cross them, with cars parked right up to the corners of the roads/kerbs so it is hard to see on coming traffic.

Jaz Brown ● 4903d

What exactly is the point where every non-main road is already humped so that >20mph is already impossible?

Tony Sleep ● 4903d

Road accident statistics released today show deaths and serious injuries down for all groups except cyclists.Bloody careless lot! - (just to wind Ben up, the best 'clockwork' poster on here).

Nigel Brooks ● 4903d

Liverpool are planning to make all residential roads in the whole city 20 mph. If they can do it why can't it be done in Ealing?

Tony Gould ● 4903d

Does anyone know if the road painted 20mph can be legally enforced without the addition of a pole mounted 20mph sign, which is more readily seen from a drivers' eye-line? Drivers tend to look ahead some distance, not down at the road surface.No such vertical signs in Pitshanger Lane!

Martin C. Harris ● 4903d

Leaving aside main roads is it too much to make the whole of the borough a 20 mph zone. We cannot expect widespread enforcement but a few well placed roving cameras should have quite an impact over a three year period.

George Knox ● 4903d

Shall we try and make our roads safer for all? Speed is a major factor in road accidents. Inappropriate and excessive speed on the roads accounts for around 1200 deaths a year.Attitudes that roads are owned by car drivers, and rat - runs are designed to help cars go as fast as they possibly can to avoid the build up of traffic on the main roads is exactly why we have to have 20mph zones. We must encourage walking and cycling. Less and less children now walk to school because parents believe that our roads are too dangerous. More people would like to ride a bike, but are put off cycling because there is the view that it is too dangerous to cycle because of traffic. Cars, cyclists and pedestrians can mix, so long as those who are in cars can accept that traffic must be slowed down to avoid injuries and deaths. I find that the lower the speed I drive at the less need there is to brake. The difference in time it takes is negligible. Better then for the environment (less pollution), more economical (consistent speed) and pleasant (less stress). The police are obliged to enforce all speed limits. But good drivers should be able to make the 20 mph largely self-enforcing, since if obeyed it will act as a restraint on others exceeding it.

Ben Owen ● 4903d

Before privatisation, this stuff was devised and implemented by the council, and built by the direct labour it employed.Privatisation meant that those departments were hived off and turned into a profit-making company.The contractor (who may still be Parkman Ltd) gets to propose traffic management schemes to the council each year. The council has a use it or lose it budget, so this is pushing on an open door. The same contractor then gets to tender for and implement the schemes it just invented and got approved.Proposals assert the thinnest of evidence. Back when humps were proposed for "traffic calming" in West Ealing I asked the council to provide evidence of the requirement. I knew for a fact that no pedestrians had been run down locally by allegedly speeding motorists in over 10 years. The only pedestrian injury was due to a parent's illegal parking outside Oaklands school. And the many and various RTA's were all due to vehicles running very badly marked junctions, some resulting in serious accidents. Needless to say, my request for evidence was ignored, we got the humps and collisions continued to happen due to invisible stop lines and give-way signs. It was another 5+ years before anyone did anything about that.The contractor stood to make a great deal more money from installing a few thousand humps rather than repainting stop lines.This is what has cost us millions in humps, CPZ's, speed cameras and everything else over the years. 20mph zones are just the latest wheeze. There's little evidence that anything that has been done has improved road safety or improved traffic flow or parking management. The primary aim appears to be jobs for the boys.

Tony Sleep ● 4903d

I used to  know a bloke in Hanwell who had a small building firm and one on the boroughs gave him a contract to put in 1000 speed bumps at £1k each.Cost him about £250 a bump profit £75k.Nice...if you are not a CT payer.

Keith Iddon ● 4903d

No chance of being enforced.The 'No Entry' from Leighton Road into Seaford Road is routinely ignored so no chance that 20mph limits will get any attention.

Nigel Brooks ● 4903d

It was not that many years ago that Speed bumps were being built along these roads wily-nilly. Then some one found that the contrators father had the work being farmed out to his Son who did the work.I think he got the push.Both Father and Son.

Os A Whittle ● 4903d

Police numbers have been/will be reduced so rumour has it.I suspect even the police realise they are never going to get round to enforcing these 20 mph 'aspirations' so I agree - why are we all paying for these 20 mph zones being installed?

Eric Alan Leach ● 4903d