Forum Topic

Whose country?

Perhaps a massive over-reaction on my part but for your comments.I really like a joint of pork with all the assocaited trimmings.One thing that I am rubbish at is making gravy and have resorted to using Bisto 'Rich and Roast' pork gravy granules.Tesco were out of stock so checking online I noticed that Asda stock the product.As I was in Hounslow this morning I popped in and asked in which aisle the product was located.The response shocked me. "As we are in an ethnically sensitive area we stock very few pork and gravy products" (verbatim).What the hell? I am prepared to live alongside anyone, walk along (and buy from) aisle after aisle of 'world foods' but this is political correctness gone absolutely crazy. I doubt if any Jewish or Muslim family have complained or even noticed.I have written to Asda and will post their response.Meanwhile, anyone got a good pork gravy recipe? :-)

Nigel Brooks ● 4935d177 Comments

It's a pity you don't give the references.The scale of the issue is small.The Department for Work and Pensions admitted the loophole but said there were fewer than 50 polygamous families claiming benefits.How it works is that these extra spouses are treated as single people and so get the single persons allowance. So what needs to be changed is the benefits law so that it recognises only one marriage in this country for the purpose of being eligible for benefits.Then they need to change the immigration law so that the right to live here is restricted to one marriage partner, regardless of where the marriages took place.

George Knox ● 4916d

That's the trouble..what laws allow this to happen. Do you not read the news reports ? If you want to verify my account, log into the Daily Mail on line today where you will see the full report.... It goes on all the time and I am misleading no-one... Just follow the news instead of accusing me of misleading you...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4916d

Are you misleading us yet again or can you prove that the law allows this to happen. In which case, which law?

George Knox ● 4917d

Why should Muslims be allowed to have several wives in this country then claim benefits for all of them even though some of them don't even live in this country......Britain has gone mad......we should copy the same  rules as Japan relating to Muslims....the curse of the world ....bannish them all to an Islamic country .....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4917d

Re    is costing us plenty          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        reputedly a whopping £5 million each year. Fly the blighter out with family one dark night and to hell with the consequences.

Tony Price ● 4917d

The case of Abu Qatada proves the Point.Having entered on a Forged Passport and behaved so badly and insultingly while he enjoys UK hospitality he cannot be got rid of.Surely his Asylum conditions too have not been adhered to while living amongst us.He is bad for Britain, bad for Race Relations and is costing us plenty.One is not surprised that Jordon wants him to Answer the grief he has caused while living there.

Os A Whittle ● 4917d

There is a lot of talk in the media advocating recruitment of ethnics and non Christians into positions of power and high office in the government police and other crucial positions. The thinking is that as we are all the same ie. "British" everyone should have the same opportunity to run the country. The naivety of people in this country is truly scary. Whilst this should be the case, the reality is that we are NOT all the same. Integration doesn't and never will happen and there are those that if given this type of power and have other agendas and would be highly dangerous. Supposing a Muslim became prime minister or chief of police, the first thing to happen would be the introduction of shariah laws. It has already been attempted where posters were put up declaring parts of London as shariah zones.What about the bent police members eg Ali Desai who use the race card and their position for corrupt activities. And how long before only ethics are offers such positions ... reverse discrimination.... It gets scarier every day and the populous needs to see the dangers ahead if this is put into practice.... no, we are not all the same. and were totally corrupt. And at what point will these positions be open to ethnics only.... reverse discrimination........

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4919d

Re  .Will I pick up as time passes?           xxxxxxxxxxxxxx      Let's hope so Os, keep soldiering on.

Tony Price ● 4921d

I meant to say Spiraling out of Control.My speech has been affected after my stroke but it has been causing me other problems too.Will I pick up as time passes?

Os A Whittle ● 4921d

Re  Keith Vaz had better watch out for saying too much .        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  I must admit coming from him, I am surprised.

Tony Price ● 4921d

Shall we ask Georgia what we are supposed to do with the latest news .? Keith Vaz says ,That the issue of Immigrants and Asylum seekers are spiring out of Control.Pretend it is not true .?Share all our housing and Earnings with them.? or just leave it never to be discussed for fear of Offending him/'her. Keith Vaz had better watch out for saying too much .

Os A Whittle ● 4921d

Re  should be compulsory viewing for the education of everybody over the age of 15.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  you are of course aware that in many Islamic countries, Iran in particular, the insistence is the holocaust did not exist, another example of how hatred is used to deny facts and truth. One also reads there were/are  demands by some elements of the Muslim community in this country  that reference to the holocaust be not mentioned or taught in our schools. To what extent it is or not taught I am not aware but why should those religionists want to pervert the  course of justice in our country?. They certainly would object to your suggestion!.

Tony Price ● 4924d

Re  How is anybody to pass onto others the horrors of what has occurred without holding a reference to the evidence?                 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  thanks Tony. I feel quite proud with what I did with the evidences, used for the good of others which I regard as an honourable pursuit. That someone should use it to  continue to accuse me with and of the most foul abuse I feel says something more problematical  re that person than myself. Just goes to show how obsessive hatred can blind the individual to the truth and sanity.

Tony Price ● 4924d

As I recall the seventies series 'The World at War' was shown before the watershed.Whilst there are worse things (live beheadings etc.) watching film of a bulldozer push piles of emaciated dead bodies into a giant pit is an image which I think, despite its absolutely horrific nature, should be compulsory viewing for the education of everybody over the age of 15.

Tony Colliver ● 4924d

How is anybody to pass onto others the horrors of what has occurred without holding a reference to the evidence?Or is that privilege only to be accorded to a few professional historians?The first thing a sceptical listener usually says / thinks is 'I don't believe you.  Show me. until you do I shall continue to presume that you are making it up.'We live in a privileged age where direct evidence of the horrors being perpetrated around the world is available to ordinary people.  The more people that know about it the better.Unfortunately, many still choose not to listen / look, preferring instead to hide behind the defence of accusing others of some kind of prurience as if it were a criminal offence.(Indeed, there are some images which holding a reference to certainly are a criminal offence.  Just ask Pete Townsend!  But that is a whole different kettle of bananas.)In the seventies, apart from studying the same period in history at school, the TV series 'A World at War' had the most long lasting effect on me and still continues to do so to this day.It continues to be a source of regret to me that my own children have refused to take an interest in the TV series now that it is being repeated.Even my own wife is unaware of considerable chunks of what took place because the history that she studied in school was of a different period.  A matter of some regret to her now.When extrapolated across the population this level of lack of awareness is really quite distressing."He who doesn't understand history is doomed to repeat it.”

Tony Colliver ● 4924d

Re  Tony has been at the receiving end of all your snide remarks.           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    thanks Os. When one reads  the posts and accusations made by  G Knox one wonders what planet he/she is on. To accuse one of feeling the need to watch hideous videos etc is so off the mark, and purposely so it would seem, that I can't really get my mind around what he/she is up to. The gross  perversions by said person is beyond belief ( don't forget btw, he/she said only yesterday you should be locked up ! ) Something doesn't add up Os, we need to keep a watchful eye and see if we can't suss out what it is all about and in aid of?.

Tony Price ● 4925d

Look at you own 'contributions' to this (and sadly so many other threads) and you will see quite clearly (or let someone explain to you) how the content became swiftly 'off-tangent'.

Nigel Brooks ● 4925d

Re  05/11/12 19:24:00  See this post in this thread. I did not have to go far to povide you with direct evidence. Something you have difficulties with.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  but that post was not made by me!, and in any event did not contain  abuse to the person , nor can I see one which was in response thereto having abuse to the person, so what are you playing at. Please have another go, and where are the racist posts?

Tony Price ● 4925d

As I posted earlier, before this thread descended into another seemingly endless blend of paranoia and bigotry, no reply has been received.

Nigel Brooks ● 4925d

George or Georgia whatever your name is you have been a loose Cannon, firing bullets at the individual instead of the content.I found you offencive and irrresponsible doing that.Remarks such as yours, can result in some misguided  reader taking it upon themselves to break the law ,cause violence in the belief that it will make him the Hero of your  thoughts. You certainly should apologise  evn if you are a man or woman. Tony has been at the receiving end of all your snide remarks. All the things said DID HAPPEN and will be remembered.Yes i am sure that there were good people among the rotten apples.I want to say much more but i shall refrain,if only to give you an opportunity to re-read the posts and ponder on what is being said..

Os A Whittle ● 4925d

Re  This whole thread is getting very odd.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  right again, used as an excuse to be objectionable  and attack others, including myself. You have seen the gross distortions. I am awaiting  examples of the racist posts I have made  together with the posts I am accused of having made being abusive to the person. We are told I have a history of such, so there  should be no  difficulty in  their being supplied?.

Tony Price ● 4925d

i dip into this forum from time to time when I feel inclined to express an opinion.However judging by the time and copious posts you contribute, it seems to me that you must have nothing much else going on in your lives.Do you not have jobs,hobbies,homes,gardens,families to take care of...also the content is often strangely off tangent eg.how does gravy granuels come into the topic of "whose country"...all very strange.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4925d

Produce posts where I have been abusive to the person of others.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx05/11/12 19:24:00  See this post in this thread. I did not have to go far to povide you with direct evidence. Something you have difficulties with.I have never asked and would not ask for an apology from you because you are imo incapable of such a thing. When I tell you something which does not suit you, you deny or shout 'rubbish'.

George Knox ● 4925d

Re  So if you have someone who feels the need to watch such ghastly videos, it would be imo be weirdly unnatural and insentient not to be on enquiry.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  sorry but your perversion and distortion of the facts is plain for all to see. Never have I said or even implied I feel the need to watch ghastly videos and to have to resort to that gross distortion is wriggling like a fish on a hook. What the hell has 9pm watershed got to do with this, I really think  there is something very strange here. And what the hell has people getting excited by violence got to do with this or me. The mind boggles as to what G K is dreaming of. And to suggest it would be unnatural and insentient not to be on enquiry is an insult to all other posters on this Forum as only his " friend "  F Stone has popped up, albeit that strange in itself. A lesson on how to make yourself look foolish in public.

Tony Price ● 4925d

So an individual cannot learn or study at home?  Only when infomation is kept by an institution does it become OK to view?This whole thread is getting very odd.Did Nigel ever get a reply from Asda?

Bernadette Clover ● 4925d

Bernadette, the observations I make are about the apparent need to have the references in his possession.I am not saying the clips should be unwatchable, even though they are horrendous. And the last thing on earth that I would claim is that the events never happened. It is vital that the horrors are taught to every generation in the hope that violence will diminish. The deniers of violence I think are a few exhibitionists who are very extremist - e.g.fascists or communists.

George Knox ● 4925d

Museums are institutions for learning and that is why they keep their material. That does not make them sick or weird.The 9pm watershed arrangement is to reduce the risk of young people being incited to activities which civilised people find unacceptable. Obviously not all can be protected and some adults remain extremely immature. Then some of those are excited by horrific gratuitous violence and a few go on to commit crimes. So if you have someone who feels the need to watch such ghastly videos, it would be imo be weirdly unnatural and insentient not to be on enquiry.http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/13/youtube-restricts-video-access-over-libyan-violence/ Even YouTube is now restricting access to violence for fear of inciting further violence.I am not saying whether you can or cannot keep the videos. All I am saying is how such news has altered my perception of you.

George Knox ● 4925d

Re  almost like claiming these events never happened?           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  thank you. I gave a full explanation why I kept the references of these few clips, which are very short in duration but they serve a purpose. The one re the teenagers in Iran being hung was sent to the Iranian Embassy and to a friend in another Muslim country to hand to the President so that nothing similar would never happen there. It was passed over. So my action there may well have born fruit, speculation maybe but I feel pleased and satisfied with what I did, and had the evidence to support it. We must bear in mind there are those on these Forums who seem to have an agenda which is hardly wholesome, let them mire in their own sad ways. Let other decent people get on and do good for others effectively as they can. I feel happy with that.

Tony Price ● 4925d

Re  @TP. If you think that freedom of speech to comment on something about you ought to be curtailed  then you can only believe that you have some authority over the rest of us.  RUBBISH, complete and utter RUBBISH. YOU are the one who constatly uses these Forums to make posts solely to engage in abuse to the personYou don’t. GOOD, would never even dream of itYou have a history of being abusive; so you’ve lost your right to complain about comments which you don’t like about yourself. You have just been accused of being rude to yet another poster, and true to character there is not a hint of apology or preparedness to apologize.          MORE RUBBISH. YOU accused me of racist posts but have never been able to produce them and I purposely avoid  being abusive to the person of others whereas it is something you seem to specialise in , such as calling me a sick weirdo. Unbelievable behaviour. Produce posts where I have been abusive to the person of others.I don’t actually think it is abusive to express my revulsion about you keeping a video clip of soldiers being brutally murdered – or now the other two clips of murderous horrors which you say you have. I can imagine that such clips are so utterly disgusting and revolting that I could not in a million years watch them.         GET your facts  straight, I said I found one so  deplorable that I could not continue with watching, that you SAY they  should not be kept as evidence is pathetic and not believable.No one said they were upset by your objection to atrocities. What IS being said is that my perception of you now is worse because of the sick weirdo need to keep such clips or references.         SO I SUPPOSE the Imperial Was Museum comprises  sick weirdos . It would seem that I am not alone in being horrified.     IF your " friend " is likewise affected, so what, she hardly dare disagree. Seems very strange " she " comes along just to add to your question, very strange indeed.  If the clips are accessible on the internet, then leave them there, unless you have unnatural needs to watch them anyway. If you do have a thirst to watch such violence rather than simply read a factual report, then how else does your mind work?          REREAD what I posted and then have the decency to apologise and drag F Stone along to add " her " apologies. STOP using these Forums to make posts of abuse to others.      SO I EXPECT  examples of posts where I have been abusive to the person such as calling someone a sick weirdo, Nazi, as you have called me. As I have said, how and why you are allowed to get away with such behaviour beggars belief and warrants explanation.

Tony Price ● 4925d

What is the diference betwen these clips and footage of the world wars and/or concentration camps?Although personally I would have neither in my home, to brand them as unwatchable is almost like claiming these events never happened?

Bernadette Clover ● 4925d

@TP. If you think that freedom of speech to comment on something about you ought to be curtailed  then you can only believe that you have some authority over the rest of us.You don’t.You have a history of being abusive; so you’ve lost your right to complain about comments which you don’t like about yourself. You have just been accused of being rude to yet another poster, and true to character there is not a hint of apology or preparedness to apologize.I don’t actually think it is abusive to express my revulsion about you keeping a video clip of soldiers being brutally murdered – or now the other two clips of murderous horrors which you say you have. I can imagine that such clips are so utterly disgusting and revolting that I could not in a million years watch them. No one said they were upset by your objection to atrocities. What IS being said is that my perception of you now is worse because of the sick weirdo need to keep such clips or references. It would seem that I am not alone in being horrified. If the clips are accessible on the internet, then leave them there, unless you have unnatural needs to watch them anyway. If you do have a thirst to watch such violence rather than simply read a factual report, then how else does your mind work?

George Knox ● 4925d

Ok to answer your questions - why would you want to keep something as horrid as one human being acting cruelly to another - I certainly couldn't. If these clips were on You Tube why save them???The other answer to your question - I have nothing to do with George Knox - you are confusing him with G Lord - another persn who had nothing to do with me.

F Stone ● 4925d

Re  George is a girls name as well isn't it?           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    well I distictly remember, maybe 2 or 3 years ago, due to G Knox and F Stone seeming to hunt as a pair,ie the closeness, including  that one poster followed immediately after the other, that some other Forum participant felt obliged to question re  " them " being one, which was naturally denied but  as the practice  seemed to peter off, does suggest there  could be liaison beyond the norm?. I only mention this out of pure curiosity of course.

Tony Price ● 4925d

Re  asked a simple question as to why you had such film clips.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  what makes you think, you in conjunction with G Knox have  to question anyone on this Forum why they hold some video clips. Tell me why  you asked and don't say just curiosity, there must be some other reason, what is it?

Tony Price ● 4925d

George is a girls name as well isn't it?

Bernadette Clover ● 4925d

Tony - First of all I have nothing to do with George - for one I am a female. I think that any film clip of a human being causing pain and suffering to another human being is dreadful and should be stopped.Your comments towards me I find unacceptable and frankly rude. I have not been rude to you at all but just asked a simple question as to why you had such film clips.

F Stone ● 4925d

Re  how one is supposed to avoid what George             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    quite frankly Os, if you take my advice, I wouldn't bother to waste precious time on the " matter ". It seems some are out  just to stiffle  opinions which differ from theirs', so be it, their problem not mine or yours because there must be something that unsettles such persons. They seem to think others are answerable to them, and my answer to that  would none too polite. To themselves they may mean something, but not to me. And as for  the video clips  in question, they were/are on Youtube etc, and as I find them difficult to relocate, ones of particular significance, I keep their references, 3 I think I have and I am damned sure I am  beholding to no-one, and certainly no-one on these Forums as to why I keep the references. Jumped up nobodies, troublemakers and over ego'd bodies. Maybe they might ask why I took and keep videos of films off the television. No, they are just out to cause disharmony on the Forums and expect others to be answerable to them, which ain't gonna be!

Tony Price ● 4925d

Makes you feel grubby doesn't it?

Tony Wood ● 4925d

It is understandable that even the Film archives preserve the facts of History that one hopes can be shown to historians . I think they are trying to suggest that the preservation of such henious crimes are there to be looked at and shown to the world every day. That is not what happens and it is not the purpose of historical facts being kept on file :surprising that one has to remind George and F. Stone of this. Bizarre and Macabre films based on fiction is another thing.They are Educated enough to know the difference. West London is a high Density area of immigrant life. You cannot avoid issues that we face together with their Presence and living in the same town or Country.I don't know how one is supposed to avoid what George thinks works through a developing Post.

Os A Whittle ● 4925d

Re  you still haven't answered        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    I am  sorry, but why do you think I have to. Who on earth do you think you are demanding  of others why they have certain  things. I have a video of the Taliban with a  8 or 12 yr old ( can't remember which )  cutting off a live sentient  person's head with an ordinary knife and holding it up for praise. Are you saying such attrocities should be swept under the carpet and ignored. I do not share that opinion. I have  photo of Iranians with 2 teenagers strung up about to be hung for being gay. Such evidences of disgusting behaviour kept to be used if necessary in future. I suppose you would have criticised Eisenhower for demanding full photographic  evidence be made when Belsen and other such places were liberated. No, I feel as Jews do, that  such evidences be kept and if I come across  ones of outstanding inhumanity, I regard as  duty to retain. Sorry if my objection to such attrocities upsets you but I think I feel happier in my stance. Don't worry about me, I think you should worry about your own beliefs a bit more.        Btw, is there any " connection "  when G K  " disappears "  you pop up and " take over ". Do I not recall someone in the past making comment re you being so  close and asking if in fact yuo are two different persons?

Tony Price ● 4925d

Sorry Tony - you still haven't answered the question why you have such a horrible piece of film in your possession

F Stone ● 4925d

RE  importantly that you have it in your possession.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  thanks Fred  for your consideration but the person to whom you refer spends a great deal of time and effort just to abuse  other persons, an excercise which I don't think is either the  intention of these Forums or indeed should be allowed by them. To call another poster inter alia as a sick weirdo I think is way beyond  acceptable  behaviour, and just one in a long line of abuse to the person, which I have always been led to believe is not acceptable and certainly not pleasant  behaviour. I agree we all  have different views on what constitutes decent behaviour, one incident may be forgiven/overlooked but not a steady stream, the purpose and driving force of which is worthy of contemplation.

Tony Price ● 4925d

Excuse me Tony but I think you have over reacted a bit. George was commenting on you having in your possession footage of soldiers being beheaded etc - which to me sounds awful both in the actual content of the film but more importantly that you have it in your possession.

F Stone ● 4925d

Re  Freedoms are meant for the Chosen Few        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  the problem Os, is chosen by whom, and why?, and I know you don't mean the " People "  oft designated  that way. Sadly there are those who delight in the freedom of speech, as long as it is only their's. Just look at the shocking abuse meeted out to posters on these Forums, they expect  to get away with their foulness but try to shut others up for simply posting facts, albeit not necessarily palatable, but facts nonetheless. . What does that tell you. One said yesterday you should be locked up!. Who do these people think they are, have ideas re their  importance beyond all rational belief. I feel sorry for such people as they must be dreadfully unhappy, I don't pity them as their unhappiness is of their own making and self curable, but will they?.

Tony Price ● 4925d

Re  IMO that makes him a sick weirdo.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  what makes you think these Forums are mediums for your personal abuse of foul content to various persons. No-one is interested in your sick obsessions and somehow you must have influence over or within the Forums to be able to get away with the persistent analyses of other posters that you seem to specialise and revel in culminating in  the most deplorable abuse to the person, which is usually the only reason for your making posts. I am of the belief such behaviour is without the terms of posting, so how or why are you allowed to get away  with abusing the rules and other posters?. As far as I am aware, there was/is  only one other allowed such priviledge.

Tony Price ● 4925d

Tony it is hard to ever forget such atrocities  have happened, and the type of peoples and Nations associated with it.It may have been carried out by a few but there were none in command who dared to stop such goings on. It is hard not to express dissent when speaking or debating the aims of people whose ambitions run against us and most of what we stand for in our own life time.St George must surely been on the wagon when he suggested something I expected to be pronounced appropriate under a Sharia Regime.They too do not tolerate dissent. Still I suppose that I have to get used to living with Sharia laws and Muslim Parliament alonside British Law and Wesminster Parliament. I don1 see why it is necessary but to say so is becoming Offencive.Freedoms are meant for the Chosen Few

Os A Whittle ● 4925d

So TP has not only seen, but also has decided to keep in his possession a video clip of soldiers being murdered in a particularly brutal manner. Literally a sentence or so later in the same paragraph he tells us he is proud to have a level of human decency.IMO that makes him a sick weirdo. Makes you wonder what other kinds of disgusting film he has.

George Knox ● 4925d

What you OAW cannot possibly comprehend is that you cause offence and others feel abused by you. You are too fixed for any explanation to get through which is why few people wish to engage.That is how you are and you cannot or will not help it. It’s clear as daylight that so very few people support you in your postings. You seem to be making a habit of introducing threads knowing they will have tendency to lead to commentary about racism. Fewer posts off this topic are coming through. My guess is that you are boring the pants off the subscribers. Perhaps you should help yourself by taking some exercise.

George Knox ● 4926d

Many have been locked up, killed in captivity and worse. Just for speaking her mind, Little Malala is a very recent example.Your response is very comforting to those who perpetuate living to abuse their fellowmen and hosts. Shut your ears to the thousands who have fled oppression and have sought refuge from tyranny.

Os A Whittle ● 4926d

Re  Soldiers corpses dragged through streets          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxnot to mention the cutting of of a captive's head with a pen-knife or similar while he screams, and then to show it on  the net so his parents could see. I have a video clipping of several  Russian prisoners seated with hands bound but not blind folded and whose heads are cut off one after the other, each having to listen to the screams of the one being SLOWLY killed by his throat cut with blunt knife until it was his turn. Makes one puke to watch it. Some may call me a bigot, but if so, I am proud to have the level of human decency that I have. When the Russians were invited into Afghanistan by Najibulla ? I mentally supported the mujahadeen but not after I saw  video of them skinning captured Russian soldiers alive. I know their religion says kill all non-believers ( especially Jews ) but not acceptable in my mind. I can safely say none of my Muslim friends would ever dream of such attrocities but what concerns many is the effect of large scale immigration of those religionists, such as in  Sweden, where all rapes now are by such young persons, Jews  hounded and attacked, so much so they are having to leave. Not nice, not acceptable. That is why in my opinion Turkey must be kept out of the EU. Europe is fighting a rear guard action to survive as a white Christian place and that is how I want it to remain. Sorry if that is bigotry, but that is what I want , prefer and will do my best to uphold. Those who don't accept my stance, I hope I and mine win  and they don't. Not enough people realise we are fighting for our survival. Just look around you, and Southall, Hounslow, Wembley etc. Why should we not stand up for ourselves, you can bet your boots Indians in India do, Pakistanis  in Pakistan do, Saudi Arabians in S. Arabia do etc etc, so why is it wrong if we do. Not bigotry but self preservation, the most natural thing for every species.

Tony Price ● 4926d

Re  the post in the right place on this system!!            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx that is why I use the style of response that I do, so people can readily see what I am replying to. Often  when reading others' posts I cannot determine what or to whom they are answering.

Tony Price ● 4926d

Mumbling as usual. You will be telling us next that all Christians brand all non believers as little barbaric heathens.  You should be locked up.

George Knox ● 4926d

Chivalry is not dead but often misguided in its presentation. A young White lad who was defending himself against a Muslim mob was severely beaten. His hand and body was held in a tight embrace from behind.The ones holding him down were uttering words that were sounded to onlookers as to Calm him down. All the time however he was being punched and kicked .The story was that he was an EDL trouble maker . True or False? Who knows for sure. I believe he was being held Captive while the others were free to beat him up.He was being prevented from running away. I hear Susan's narrative and I am touched that it happens. She hurts but is allowed to speak. When someone speaks about Muslims they recognise that there are Fine individuals among them but They are Good People not NOT BECAUSE OF BEING MUSLIM, BUT ARE INSPITE OF BEING MUSLIM. There are hundrds and thousands of Susans living who are murdered and Silenced everyday in muslim Countries around the world for daring to speak .Most of them are not muslim.Other religions have grown out of such proctices ,why should we not expect Muslims too to join the existing world.Honour Killing, Apostasy , Treason, Beheading ,Stoning ,Islamophobia, Hosexuality,Adultry,All punishable by death.Judged by their own interpretation. Soldiers corpses dragged through streets and publicly dishonoured is not my idea of any sort of Justice or Concerns shown to dead relatives watching the horror on Television. Why shouldn't we want them to live by their own laws in their own lands.? Anne Marie speaks with her perceptions . Dont you ? I like to think we all do.Though you brand us all as infidels

Os A Whittle ● 4926d

Wonderfully said.I am sick and tired of the little minded, bigoted conspiracy theorists.There are issues to deal with with the Muslim community and the enlightened leaders recognise this. They need our support to address these issues not our vilification.So often the issue of totally out of control mass immigration is rolled into the 'Muslim problem'. No government has been brave enough to deal with the balance between infrastructure and a rising population leaving it instead to the Daily Mail's of this world to foster (or should that be fester) hatred and contempt.xxxxxxxxxxxxxPretty well put yourself sir!

Suzan Issa ● 4926d

I never seem to get the post in the right place on this system!!Apologies my 'wonderfully said' post should have been below yours Suzan not Marie's. I cannot envisage posting a valedictory post under one of her rantings.xxxxxxxxxIt's not you, this forum follows a very odd format - i can never find my posts.....but thank you :-)

Suzan Issa ● 4926d

I never seem to get the post in the right place on this system!!Apologies my 'wonderfully said' post should have been below yours Suzan not Marie's. I cannot envisage posting a valedictory post under one of her rantings.

Nigel Brooks ● 4926d

Wonderfully said.I am sick and tired of the little minded, bigoted conspiracy theorists.There are issues to deal with with the Muslim community and the enlightened leaders recognise this. They need our support to address these issues not our vilification.So often the issue of totally out of control mass immigration is rolled into the 'Muslim problem'. No government has been brave enough to deal with the balance between infrastructure and a rising population leaving it instead to the Daily Mail's of this world to foster (or should that be fester) hatred and contempt.

Nigel Brooks ● 4926d

Marie do you really believe what your saying? Really? Your logic would mean that all white English people are 'bad.'So this poor boy died because he came from a Muslim family? Or because his mother has serious issues?Baby P died because he was from a white English family? Or because his mother and step father had serious, serious issues. What do you think Marie?

Jaz Brown ● 4926d

So you are saying that this incident didn't happen ??Well it did so you should not dismiss facts. Just because you don't like the truth you have no right to accuse anyone of being prejudiced. Yes I am prejudiced against cruel peopleand their actions regardless of who they are. Violence should be exposed and punished. Who murders a child for such a reason .... own the facts not dismiss them ....A CHILD WAS MURDERED..

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4926d

Methinks it would be a good idea to adopt the Japanese methods of dealing with the whole Muslim issue...... But I suppose thre's no chance of that .... great pity...xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxAnd what are those methods? Please, do tell!

Suzan Issa ● 4926d

What the HELL has that got to do with gravy granules?Just to return, fo a moment to the start of this thread. I had had no response from ASDA - ho hum.Roast lamb tomorrow. Worry not Keith I have my own gravy recipe for that one :-)xxxxxxxxxxxxxx I am sorry that yet another thread on these forums has been hijacked by bigots. Hope you have a wonderful sunday lunch with all the trimmings!

Suzan Issa ● 4926d

What the heck has gravy got to do with "whose country" ....xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxWhen this question was raised it was raised in a respectful manner and it voiced the legitimate concerns of the indigenous population. The fact is that you have chosen to use it as a vindication of you vile and prejudiced views against Muslims, based on your own admission solely on tabloid reporting by papers which support your views.Jaz - It's really not worth it, their minds have been made up by the daily mail, it is not worth confusing them with facts!

Suzan Issa ● 4926d

There is no shame in exposing such an awful act .... The shame is to minimize it... . It is unlawful here to beat children much less to beat them to death especially for such an unnecessary reason. What kind of scripture says that a 7yr old child should have to recite Passages from the Koran.....disgraceful and should receive the full wrath of the media, not hide it.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4927d

You know Marie, shame on our media to report this like it is only Muslim people that will beat their children, so that people like you can make stupid comments like that one. I have worked with children from all religions and cultures who have been hit/beaten for coming home late, speaking to the wrong kind of person, not being able to read the dictionary at the age of six, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, for asking why, for being a child and an easy target. What they all had in common was  parent who was  mentally ill. and by that I mean depressed, or highly anxious, serious anger management problems or fanatical or completely controlling because of issues from their own upbringing such as abuse and NOT because of their religion.

Jaz Brown ● 4927d

Methinks it would be a good idea to adopt the Japanese methods of dealing with the whole Muslim issue...... But I suppose thre's no chance of that .... great pity...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4927d

What the heck has gravy got to do with "whose country" ......

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4927d

What the HELL has that got to do with gravy granules?Just to return, fo a moment to the start of this thread. I had had no response from ASDA - ho hum.Roast lamb tomorrow. Worry not Keith I have my own gravy recipe for that one :-)

Nigel Brooks ● 4927d

Re    before our children will have to study the Koran..            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I stand to be corrected but I think they already do, at least in schools that include  R K in their teachings, except of course  Islamic schools where  only their religion would be taught. Some of the Wahabe funded ones  include the more reprehensible aspects such as stoning of those having sex outside marriage, and especially gays who should be  either  hung as in Iran, stoned or thrown over the top of a cliff. They are establishments espousing love and peace, after all. Last year Ealing was advertising Islam in the Central  Library but never Christianity re which I  wrote 3 times to  Councillors, not as though I ever got any replies but  it has not happened this year as far as I can tell.

Tony Price ● 4927d

Just read a report about a woman in Wales who beat her 7yr old son death for not being able to quote passages from the Koran and for falling behind in studying this hateful document...... How long before our children will have to study the Koran.....SCARY ......

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4927d

Re  Black Burkas are now a common sight      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx not just black ones Os but the numbers of  burqa clad  " women " in Ealing now have noticeably increased, VERY prominent, and with loads of kids in tow, hence we  being out numbered. I predict that in much less than 25 years max. whites/ Christians will be  very much in the minority. One such female I traversed a pedestrian crossing in the town centre this afternoon had 5 kids in tow plus a baby in the pushchair. One has only to look at Southall, Wembley etc to see what can happen and so quickly. The boast of Muslim leaders ( Gadaffi , Bourguiba and others ) is to take Europe over by immigration and greater breeding. I can't  otherwise understand why persons from hot countries  should go choose to live in cold countries, Scandinavia  for example. Number 2 Iraqi friend here tells me they do not go outdoors in the cold months but stay in with c/heating  blasting away by making out they are studying which apparently qualifies them for all sorts of Welfare benefits. He says  they come here and claim welfare in the UK as well. Being the  honest truthful man he is, I  believe him. With persons like him there is a glimmer of hope. He has 3  children, the eldest circa 14 who he tells me he allows to wear what she likes ( within reason of course )  the son to believe what he likes, the third only 12 mths so unlikely to think anything yet. Reminds me that yesterday I bumped into the wife of a Syrian friend who was bringing their young  talkative daughter back from kindergarten and who was singing something like jingle bells , so I asked what it was and was told  the daughter's Christmas is coming early  this year!. So those 2 Muslim parents have no objection to the daughter joining in  with her schoolmates' celebrations. And the husband does not even follow the dietary laws, will eat bacon/pork if he so desires, so obviously do the rest of the family as well. Getting westernised!.

Tony Price ● 4929d

Re  well known fact that Iraq was an illegal war       open to question and approved by the UN?.Re    murder hundreds of thousands of children     that is an accusation which I find rather distasteful and inflamatoryRe    constant snipes as do most other muslims now    I am unaware any of my friends experience that except Iraqi No 1 who was  attacked 12 years ago  I think from memory at Hammersmith station and I made him report it to the Police, which he did at Nottinghill where he lived.Re  a privilege not extended to Muslims     oh c'mon. The PC walleys and certain Church members are always begging "forgiveness" for this that and something else. I think if one said preferential treatment was accorded to Muslims, one would garner a fair amount of support in the public in general.

Tony Price ● 4929d

Re  to constantly disassociate from them.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  so a comment re  the 99% not being  vociferous against the 1% gets  distorted into a criticism of not taking to the streets. No wonder  differences of opinions/understandings arise. Of all  the Muslims I know, none have ever voluntarily spoken against any of the attrocities carried out by others of their religion, maybe due to embarassment, I don't know. I do not broach the subject verbally  with them a) not wishing to upset them and b) work on the understanding knowing them as I do,they do deplore the actions of the 1%. Matters of concern however do get sent to persons of influence in the hope some attention will be taken. One News correspondent in particular in a Muslim country does share views very similar to mine, so sending him articles may well add to his armoury. Some while ago I sent to one friend a link/ photos to of 2 teenagers being strung up in public to be hung in Iran for being gay  and asked for it to be handed to the President of his  country  to make sure nothing similar would ever happen in their country, and I was assured it was handed over.

Tony Price ● 4929d

Even after the 5th or 6th generation there is increasing evidence that the Melting Pot in london Society is in reality the "Melting Away" of established English Society;in Cities and towns around the UK Black Burkas are now a common sight. The ID of the wearer may be Young or Old,Male or Female, Friend or Hostile , carrying an offensive weapon or Placard .Three or more wandering around the market or superstore shelves, distracts from the one thieving. A sure cover up for the Security who is not sure which Black hooded person is moving out with the others similarly clad.They aid and abet the Talibani woman who we tried to liberate.No comfort that they are 5th generation residents.They are what they are.There are heart rending stories around the world and cities of individuals sufferring Under Muslim Fanatics. They cover their intentions only too well. They provoke response in a hurful way.

Os A Whittle ● 4929d

Have never accessed those websites, facts based on what has been observed and published as well as media coverage...do you not follow news and documentary information.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4929d

The immediate post 7/7  taxi driver's behaviour  must be viewed in the light of that event, not nice but a natural reaction maybe?.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxThe fact that you believe this is a natural response to a woman and her three children, one of whom had an obviously raging temperature, is the saddest thing I have heard in a long time. Whilst i did not expect you to apologise for his behaviour I Certainly did not expect you to condone it.Muslims were also affected by 7/7 one of the attacks was carried out in Edgware Road - a well known Muslim populated area. The enemy we face is an enemy to all who is as happy to murder me for disagreeing with his warped viewpoint as he is a non-muslim.

Suzan Issa ● 4930d

No other 'religion' teaches or promotes such hatred towards others not of the same beliefs. All Muslims follow the shariah laws ..... nuff said...could you please back that up with facts - preferable not taken from the EDL or BNP website.

Suzan Issa ● 4930d

The comments re who gave the orders to murder hundreds of thousands of children do  tend to suggest a tendency to present situations in a most bizarre fashion and do rather take away any righteousness  you may otherwise have, especially the comment re the "illegal" war?. I think it now a well known fact that Iraq was an illegal war based upon the same scaremongering that is causing the same Islamaphobia the EDL promote."I am surpried you voluntarily chose to live among those  you accuse of nasty crimes."i am not accusing anyone of nasty crimes other that the government ministers who took our - yes OUR - country to war. I live here amongst some of the kindest, most tolerant human beings on earth. i have lived here since I was 4 years old, I am from a line of British diplomats going back 6 generations who have lived across the world representing the UK, and who chose back in 1978 to settle in the country that they had proudly represented - there is no other place on earth I would call home. So yes I live in London, yes I face low level constant snipes as do most other muslims now. You don't hear about them because sadly we have come to accept them as part of life from the very few. The point I am trying to make is that I don't expect anyone to apologise for their action apart from the perpetrators - a privilege not extended to Muslims who are expected by some to apologise for the actions of anyone who refers to themselves as a muslim.

Suzan Issa ● 4930d

Re  unfair to repeatedly call upon Muslims to take to the streets          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I must have missed that post, which one was it?It is in the constant call for Muslims to speak out against the fanatics, to constantly disassociate from them. How do you suggest we do that? we have done numerous 'not in my name marches' we are always on public forums paying our respects and condolences at any tragedy - but it's never seen as enough.People say well you must oust them from your community, as if all muslims somehow all live in one big house where they know the opinions of everyone residing there....I can't oust them from my community because I don't blinking know any of them. The odd lunatic who acts in the name of Islam usually has the same low profile as the lunatic from any other group.

Suzan Issa ● 4930d

No other 'religion' teaches or promotes such hatred towards others not of the same beliefs. All Muslims follow the shariah laws ..... nuff said...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4930d

I disagree that there is an anti-Muslim feeling in the populace in general. I think that there are a small number of people who are anti-Muslim, most people are intelligent enough to realise the massive difference between Muslim fundamentalist and people whose religion is Islam, Christians are not all Christian fundamentalist, people who are Jewish are not all religious or national Zionists. And over a million marched against the war in Iraq, a many millions more who didn't march were against it. The findings  of the Chilcot inquiry will be interesting. As for the EDL, it is against Muslims, and they are very open about it,  they welcome non white members. Most members are ex football hooligans. And the BNP, off shoot of the National Front lovely people they were!!! Not. But having read up about the EDL manifesto, there are a couple of people who regularly post on here who have very very similar warped views.....

Jaz Brown ● 4930d

Re  unfair to repeatedly call upon Muslims to take to the streets           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I must have missed that post, which one was it?

Tony Price ● 4930d

Re  English/British/Christian people feel they have to personally disassociate with or apologise on behalf of:        xxxxxxxxxxxxxx I would answer that by saying no, because we do not know about it. As for the E D L and BNP  one must  realise they only exist because of  mass immigration and the effects thereof, not of Muslims in particular. The immediate post 7/7  taxi driver's behaviour  must be viewed in the light of that event, not nice but a natural reaction maybe?. The person at the bus stop and the woman on the bus are not defendable and most certainly not those in your street. All do however  suggest there is rightly or wrongly much anti-Muslim feeling in the  populace in general.          The comments re who gave the orders to murder hundreds of thousands of children do  tend to suggest a tendency to present situations in a most bizarre fashion and do rather take away any righteousness  you may otherwise have, especially the comment re the "illegal" war?. I am surpried you voluntarily chose to live among those  you accuse of nasty crimes.

Tony Price ● 4930d

Hi Jaz, thank you for your kind words.I am so over it and thankfully I'm relatively confident and can deal with it. I have a wonderful relationship with many, many people of so many different cultures and I love the melting pot that is London and it's wonderful people.I was trying to illustrate the point that it is unfair to repeatedly call upon Muslims to take to the streets every-time some fanatic does something in Islam's name. The Irony is I am about 6th generation British and have never held another citizenship.

Suzan Issa ● 4930d

So, so sorry Suzan,at times it must have been awful for you.  My family have also been subject to racist attacks, but thankfully it is no where near as bad as it was in the 60's and 70's, and early 80's, that is for my family anyway. Although it does still happen occasionally. Please remember these racist/xenophobes are ignorant people. There are far far more decent people than there are ignorant xenophobes. I try hard not to let those certain people get to me, they are sad sad people. Peace be with you, Inshallah.

Jaz Brown ● 4930d

ok, here goes. I will try to get more people involved however I take issue with constantly being asked why the rest of the muslims don't speak out against the minority of fanatics in their midst. Firstly, many, many do but are not heard. It's not news when someone says lets all live peacefully.Secondly, do all English/British/Christian people feel they have to personally disassociate with or apologise on behalf of:-The people gave the orders for the murdering of hundreds of thousand Iraqi children in an illegal war?-The actions and hate speech of the EDL or BNP?-The entire residents of the street where we lived when we first moved to England who decided that they did not want the 'Islamification' of their street, so they surrounded our house and dragged my 11 year old brother out and beat him up quite severely?-The taxi driver who a day after 7/7 took one look at my hijab and told me he won't have my kind in his cab despite the fact that I desperately needed to get to the doctors with my 3 children.-The moron who felt the need to phone his friends, when I was at the same bus stop as him, to ask if he should get on a bus with one of 'them' and risk getting blown up or should he walk.-The woman on the bus who told me that I should get out and walk as there was not room enough on the bus for all the foreigners and that I was more used to walking where I came from.I could go on for hours, but you get my gist. So will you please excuse us muslims if we are fed up of constantly having to defend ourselves and distance ourselves from people who we do not identify with anymore that you do. It gets tiring and you also start resenting having to constantly apologise for the actions of a few that quite frankly have nothing to do with you.I am sorry this is long and probably barely coherent but again

Suzan Issa ● 4930d

The truth hurts. To be enuinely terrified at the prospects of Muslims carrying out their stated mission of taking  over the world and imposing their violent culture, shariah laws etc on us does not a fanatic make......none so blind a those who don't want to see....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4930d

Marie Anne O'Connell is quite right to point out the reasons for her feelings to date. It was not that long ago that Muslims in greater Numbers were openly declaring their intention to see this Country becoming an Islamic-Country.Those who deny that this was not truely said, are either Johnny- come- Lately's, or those who decided to go at it quietly. As for those very understanding Muslims in our midst , they are more likely to be known as "Ahmedias". The Muslims themselves do not recognise them as Muslims. I think Marie is looking at the future correctly. I like many feel the same way.

Os A Whittle ● 4930d

So you are OK with 9/11,7/7,burning poppies,desecrating war memorials, atrocities across the globe, putting up posters in London declaring the area a Sharia territory,death threats over some petty cartoons, telling an MP not to enter a Muslim area in.... LONDON.....yes they are bent on taking over with their laws and violent culture.... not the future I would want for my grandchildren.... 

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4930d

Re  who are fanatical      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  very true, sadly and it only needs 1% who can cause tremendous death destruction etc as is being witnessed around the world, mainly by the fanatics of one religion currently. We do not see many of the 99% standing up and  lambasting the 1%.  In the past  others, including our antecedents have  been none too " friendly "  but with the Crusades, it was more a question of  getting back the Holy City from perceived " non authorised  invaders " . Those fanatics are now saying Jerusalem was never a Jewish place and who have no right to it.

Tony Price ● 4930d

Re  Are these the same Muslims that some ignorant poster derides:              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    " The Ahmadis have supported us for three years and this support has grown each year," she said. "We're happy they're still willing to do this even though they might have to face difficulties of their own."These "difficulties" come largely in the form of some members of the wider Muslim community"        As has already been answered when this link was put forward, here we have one isolated  group whose actions are stated as not likely to be appreciated  or supported by the Muslim community. Sadly, something of an own goal?

Tony Price ● 4930d

Are these the same Muslims that some ignorant poster derides:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20109337

Bud Richards ● 4930d

I didn't mean to start an issue when I mentioned the Crusades - I just wanted to show Marie that we (meaning English - another can of worms will be opened now) aren't at all innocent in imposing our will on other people.I work with all faith denominations - Christian, Jewish, Muslim etc and I have to say hand on heart everyone I work with is kind considerate, hard working and never mentions their religion.Yes there are a few in this world (regardless of religion) who are fanatical, but there are more people out there who just want to get on with their lives.

F Stone ● 4931d

Where's your dinner...?Not another one after a free lunch...!

Keith Iddon ● 4931d

Keith, where's my dinner?

George Knox ● 4931d

Seconded. we need  more input from people around the world and there are enough who could participate in this Borough.

George Knox ● 4931d

I stand corrected but please don't get carried away with the bnp comments.You can count me out of that nest of vipers thankyou very much.I genuinely thought that ' our Genghis'(?) was a Muslim. I just think it silly to talk about the Crusades and all those  ancient historical events that can be used to justify modern atrocities.Ho hum.

Keith Iddon ● 4931d

Suzan - I don't suppose there is any chance that you could persuade a few more muslims to pop up and express a point of view around here is there?I really am not a fan of religion (of all sorts) myself as you may have gathered from other recent messages of mine, but we sure could do with a bit more balance around here from people with a bit more insight into the realities.I have many muslim friends and business associates myself and fully concur with your point (2).  In fact, I find many of them positively inspirational in business, and certainly not, as you say, in need of handouts from anybody.Moving away from the 'muslim' question I find that, regardless of religion, those people that I have worked with whose families are originally from the sub-continent are some of the brightest and very hardest working people that I have ever met.(I do of course appreciate that 'muslim' does not equal 'from the sub-continent' but I have no direct experience of working with those from other areas of the globe.)

Tony Colliver ● 4931d

My, it has been busy here!Two questions for Marie and co...1. Where would you send English converts to live? (oh dear, I do fear this may open a hornets nest)2. Have you ever actually met a muslim? - because quite frankly I have met hundreds (I am one after all) and none of them are as you describe despite being practicing muslims; furthermore, they are all doing very nicely without needing your taxes!

Suzan Issa ● 4931d

Re  .With God in mind people create Religions.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx that's right, or shall we say " with the perceived NEED for a God in mind ...... The funny thing is  in  a monotheistic religion ( Judaism was not the first ) one Commandment  is  " Thou shalt have no other God before me, I am a jealous God."  That means Yahweh admits there are other Gods!, and jealousy is one of the main sins. He ain't  doing too well really. And don't forget what Jews say to Christians who criticise, "the tree cannot stand without the root". Very true. What's the rhyme, something something something, we all fall down.

Tony Price ● 4931d

Our(?) Ghengis? Keith will be up all night now.

George Knox ● 4931d

"www.cultural-china.com is a non-profit cultural website initiated by Shanghai News and Press Bureau..."You do realise that the Chinese are not to be trusted when it comes to writing the history of our Genghis don't you?They are on record as having a distinctly 'edited' perspective of him.

Tony Colliver ● 4931d

Sadly, all too true Os.

Tony Colliver ● 4931d

Oooh Keith how could you?http://history.cultural-china.com/en/46History2406.htmlwill bring you up to speed!!!!!A nice slimming recipe or two please, will get you out of trouble.

George Knox ● 4931d

I think you might want to put down the "BNP guide to the Mongols" and pick up a real history book, Keith. Or just try a bit of Googling.Genghis Khan was not only NOT a muslim (where on earth did you pick that up? The only reference I found suggesting it was on a obvious race-hate site) - he was famously tolerant of all religions, including Christianity, and consulted religious leaders of many faiths. He slaughtered many, yes, but not in the name of Islam or any other religion.

M. Duley ● 4931d

Bringing up historical conflicts is daft.If you want to bring up the Crusades,Christians can feel justified in mentioning Genghis Khan who slaughterd far more people pro rata that just about any other tyrant.All in the name of Islam btw.

Keith Iddon ● 4931d

Re  get rid of all religious beliefs           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    very probably a good idea but easier said than done. USSR tried it and failed, so has China. Some of my Chinese friends say  they go to "the temple " back home , admittedly once a year but theoretically they believe in something. Mankind needs to have a " father figure " but one has only to read the Old Testamount, Torah or Koran to realise they were devised by man and for the benefit of the male of our species. A question of education, hence why the West is drifting away from religion.

Tony Price ● 4931d

Tony,however convincing the arguement is against Religious beliefs the truth is that the CONCEPT of God is very comforting to the human Spirit .With God in mind people create Religions.

Os A Whittle ● 4931d

"...get rid of all religious beliefs..."Oh, if only we could.Unfortunately, as a good friend of mine once said to me "if we did that then some b*gger would only invent it again first thing tomorrow!".It is, IMO, an unfortunate weakness of the human spirit that can never be overcome no matter how much rational argument is launched against it by the rest of us.

Tony Colliver ● 4931d

I only ' moan' about anyone who exploit and threaten this country as well as those who don't work but live off my taxes. If the cap fits, wear it ...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4931d

Continuing to this day of course with the activities of a number of really quite alarming christian sects in Africa and other areas of the world as well.

Tony Colliver ● 4931d

My reason for 'M' is that I do not know if you are Mr.Mrs Miss or Ms. Hence just  'M' I'm not a fanatic it's those who promote shariah law who own that title .....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4931d

Marie - you are as fanatical as those you wish to see depart this country. By the way my name begins with an F not an M!Perhaps we should get rid of all religious beliefs as religion seems to be the root of the problem

F Stone ● 4931d

"the past history has no relevance"....need anyone say any more?Marie, as always in these debates, (which sadly seem to be every other thread on this forum) there is a little truth on all sides. Unfortunately, as you are unwilling to see it, you come across as unpleasantly fanatical as the people you constantly moan about.

James Brown ● 4931d

M.Stone....indIgenous citizens in the UK have no problem living in harmony but it's those with different agenda who want to take us over...nothing harmonious about that eg shariah laws.... Not wanted here...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4931d

Have no interest in past history or pernicious labels which have no  relevance to what is happening today.... persecution and murdering of Christians and all other evil activities all over the world....just stating facts..

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4931d

RE  could gently remind you of the Crusades           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  the history of ALL religions is bad, one trying to suppress the other. Our past is none too rosey, far from it but we have moved on whereas  Islam has stood mired in the 7th century, long since outmoded and outdated. Judaism is the only non proseltysing religion. An individual has to study and apply consistently for 3 yrs  before even being considered and then no guarantee. Apart from the King David Hotel incident, Jews do not go around the world blowing everyone up or have suicide  bombers in the name of Yahweh.

Tony Price ● 4931d

Whatever point you wanted to put across Marie has just been undermined by your blatant Xenophic speech.I could gently remind you of the Crusades in which we tried to impose our beliefs on the Far East.I am not advocating that we should change our beliefs to Islam but perhaps we (all cultures)should try and live more harmoniously

F Stone ● 4931d

RE  Here's one for Marie and Tony          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    exactly. " The Ahmadis have supported us for three years and this support has grown each year," she said. "We're happy they're still willing to do this even though they might have to face difficulties of their own."These "difficulties" come largely in the form of some members of the wider Muslim community. "          So here we have one isolated specialist group of the general community and who it is acknowledged and stated they might find problems from within their own community. So thanks, confirms what  has been said. The wider Muslim community ain't exactly in favour of Poppy Appeal etc etc. Whether some individuals may wish to " contribute " but feel held back so as not to stand out  within their community is something we don't know. Some of the Muslims I know I suspect  could well do, some being very pro Britiah and even  prefer the days of the Raj and are grateful for the legacies we left behind ( apart from the Punjab! )

Tony Price ● 4931d

Wish it was false but sorry as a realist the truth is that Muslims are a real threat to us as witnessed by their activities worldwide.Why do they not all go and live together in an Isalamic part of the world and leave the West alone.?  Why should they want to dominate using every kind of evil cruel means to obliterate anyone who opposes them... our faith means just as much to us and we should not have to be persecuted by these evil Muslims with their hateful laws.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4931d

I am a realist and work in a particularly multicultural environment.however I am personally terrified of the prospect of Muslims taking over the West as is their mission. We know what they are capable of as witnesses 9/11,7/7, etc etc as well as evil activities all around the world..indeed there are probably pockets of Muslim groups plotting against us as we speak.... Just look at nature where all types live and exist among their own types and species. All muslims should live together in an Islamic country and leave the west alone..... job done... please study the way Japan deals with Muslims ...we should follow their principles in this regard if we want to live in peace.Anything else doesn't bear thinking about ......

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4931d

Excellent!  :-)

Tony Colliver ● 4931d

Here's one for Marie and Tonyhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20109337

Jaz Brown ● 4931d

Re  I just don't see this happening.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      Let's hope you are right Nigel but things don't look too good in some places. A Swedish politician has said they must be kind to the Muslims there because when the Swedes  become a minority in their own country he hopes the Muslims will be kind to them. France could go Muslim soonish, and Holland. It is a question of immigration and birth rates. Muslim leaders have said Islam will conquer Europe by numbers, that is their intention. Turkey must be kept out of the EU at all costs. Merkel won't let them in, nor France but for how long. If France goes Muslim and Merkel gets swept away?

Tony Price ● 4931d

Re  and caused thousands of Christians to flee.       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Iraq has cleared out most of it's Christians, Syria will , Mali has, Southern Sudan has, Nigeria  is, and what does UN do about it, nowt. In S.Arabia, can't hold Christian assemblies or even take a Bible into the country. Pakistan none too kindly disposed much of the time, either by fundamentalists or uneducated  people.

Tony Price ● 4931d

Marie is not talking about what happens in other countries or a few "hotheads".  She believes (or says she believes)that the UK is being taken over by people who want to impose thier norms on us.  I just don't see this happening.

Nigel Williams ● 4931d

Nigel it is nice to have individuals like yourself and Susan but this world is made up today of many who wouild gladly slit you throat given the chance. Have you realised what is happenning to Non-Muslims and Christians in parts of the world where Islam dominates ?The imposition of Islamic law in several northern states has embedded divisions and caused thousands of Christians to flee. ( Where are the Susans there.?) Be realistic and allow for the genuine fears of those heare in Britain.

Os A Whittle ● 4931d

Re  Muslim population in the UK than the false picture that you and others                 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I have made the point many times that the Muslims I know are all very nice people and do depart from their religious  " requirements " one way or another,ie they are normal people. However, one must recognise within the Muslim community, not only in UK but all over the world,  the vast majority of violent incidents are caused by fundamental Islamists, running into mulri-thousands w/wide. The problem may also arise if Muslims gain control of a country not hitherto Muslim, the "good ones " will probably follow the orders of the fundamentalists. Ones I know are afraid of the hardliners but fear can do many things, obeisance for one?

Tony Price ● 4931d

Marie you have got no idea what the "ethnics" want.  As Susan said earlier "I wouldn't want gravy off the menu any more than I wanted Lloyds to stop handing out piggy banks."  I'd suggest that she is much more represemtative of the Muslim population in the UK than the false picture that you and others are trying to paint.

Nigel Williams ● 4931d

'Rubbing together' is not the issue it's that the ethnics do not WANT to 'rub together'. They bring their own culture, traditions etc and do not embrace a British way life in fact they expect / demand that they are accommodated in every aspect. There is a clear sense of being 'taken over' by this element of our society.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4932d

Off to Hoo Hing later to pick up the 'bits' for a 'fête of wok-bashing' later this week. Twice-cooked lamb with ginger and spring onions and home-made (apart from the silky wrappers) steamed dim sum on the menu.It's far more pleasant to write about food and recipes than ADSA.

Nigel Brooks ● 4932d

Sorry,I really must read before I post.I meant to say '..it gives many,including a few of the usual ranters on here,the chance to further back themselves into a corner...'PS.Glad you liked the gravy Nigel.

Keith Iddon ● 4932d

Indeed, well said Suzan.This sort of policy from Asda smacks of the navel gazing think tank mentality that has so plagued every area of public life since phoney Tony took over.All quangoed up and nowhere to go...it's the same sort of nonsense that claims Muslims are offended by Christmas and it gives me,including a few of the usual ranters on here,the chance to further back themselves into a corner,siege mentality akimbo.

Keith Iddon ● 4932d

SuzanThank you.It is the unthinking PC-obsessed that make it far more difficult for all of us to rub along together.

Nigel Brooks ● 4932d

I must say this thread has made me smile. Sharing recipes whilst there is a racial war brewing in the background!Nigel, no I don't think it was an over-reaction, it's stupid comments like that which make it hard for us muslims.....people who have never met muslims deciding what will offend us. I wouldn't want gravy off the menu any more than I wanted Lloyds to stop handing out piggy banks.If she had said that it simply did not sell enough to stock it in that area then a whole lot of trouble could have been avoided and certainly not given ammunition to some of the blatantly racist posters who lurk these boards jumping on any bandwagon they believe strengthens their theories!Glad you got your pork gravy! :-)

Suzan Issa ● 4933d

Re  best 'pork' gravy and one happy crackling          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I think you and Keith should open a restaurant, specialising in English dishes,as you both seem very well versed in the knowledge and execution of exotic dishes ( and I am sure there is much you haven't  told us ) as there is a dearth of such establishments in this area. I'll come and wait at table. Just that, not moving, simply waiting by the table !.

Tony Price ● 4933d

Chicken stock+ beef stock+ pan deglazed with a drop of scrumpy brought back on my daughter's last trip to Devon = best 'pork' gravy and one happy crackling -filled Nigel :-)Incidentally I have found, but didn't use today, the Bisto granules at Morrison's.

Nigel Brooks ● 4933d

Re  money to be made and started stocking 'ethnic' items.                xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    it is all a question of demand and supply

Tony Price ● 4933d

Re  How was the gravy Nigel?        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  I was in Makro this afternoon, they've got gravies by the bucketful!

Tony Price ● 4933d

How was the gravy Nigel? Did you give my humble recipe a go?

Keith Iddon ● 4933d

You could always go to a Butchers and get it?Rarely buy meat from Supermarkets as its better to support your local business.  Luckhursts in West Ealing usually have a fine range of Pork poducts amongst others.I choose what I eat, not a faceless PC exec at Asda.Hounslow however, is not an ethnically sensative area, there are a lot of nationalities living there, but rarely, if ever, is there an issue. Maybe some of the staff have an issue even touching the goods and the management don't want to make a fuss?

Bernadette Clover ● 4933d

I cannot see why Nigel feels that he might have been over reacting with his original Post . Frankly, he is not alone in making a comment about Super=markets dropping the sale of pork .Is it also OK to only sell Mutton or Lamb if it is NOT HALLAL.? Slitting a live animal's throat and to leave it bleating in pain is not the best way within an abattoir.I have even seen a HSBC notice sometime aga advertising HALLAL finance. The question still is what does it mean in Britain.

Os A Whittle ● 4933d

Boo, down with that sort of thing too!Its enough to make my cat pull all its fur out.

Bernadette Clover ● 4933d

The bell would have been on the other leg if it had been the Helston floral dance,you'd have been incandescent.

Tony Wood ● 4933d

How do you know?It's a bit like the Father Ted episode where the women who hadn't seen the 'blasphemous' film were campaigning against it.

Nigel Brooks ● 4933d

Thanks but no thanks....injurious to my ears !!

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4933d

That's nothing, I turned on he radio this morning and they were playing a song all in French!  Outrageous.  You should write to your MP ASAP and demand that "this sort of thing" is outlawed immediately. 

Bernadette Clover ● 4933d

Dreadful!Not to worry, I have some Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan tracks to which you can listen.I am sure that you are familiar with this late Pakistani artist's work both as the world's leading exponent of Qawwali, but his collaborations with Peter Gabriel on film scores and Michael Brook on albums such as 'Musst Musst' really should be enjoyed at full volume at home rather than over a supermarket PA.Do let me know when you want to widen your musical education.

Nigel Brooks ● 4933d

Re  stock reflects a change in shopping habits by immigrant and ethnic             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    very true, and the number of Polish shops everywhere is considerable, what they sell not cheap  but probably less " processed " than what we are normally offered. And there are a number of shops which seem to be dual " nationality " ie Iranian or Turkish combined with Polish. Again not cheap but certainly offer a wider range of foodstuffs than we have been used to.

Tony Price ● 4934d

I've just heard it all !! Had to go late night shopping to the local supermarket this evening and inside there was  loud Indian musIc blaring out over the the pa system.....shopped quickly and got out asap !!!!!

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4934d

A couple of years ago on holiday in Dubai, I was suprised to see inside a large supermarklet, a section  selling pork and other non halal products for the no muslim population.  I understand the 'native' population of Dubai is outnumbered many times over by people from other countries including the UK all of whom have their needs met one way or another. All that has happened in the UK is that minority groups were first catered for by their own shops until big groups realised there was money to be made and started stocking 'ethnic' items. The increasing range big stores now stock reflects a change in shopping habits by immigrant and ethnic groups and the only losers will be those small 'ethnic' shopkeepers.

Keith Mason ● 4934d

Way off topic but the last time I went they had 'shrunk' the store from two floors into one.Prices were not that great with many items cheaper in Tesco.

Nigel Brooks ● 4934d

Re Makro card they can pick them up from the Park Royal store             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  recently been taken over by Bookers?. Not surprised. In the late 70's when I acquired 2 cards,one for foodstuffs and one for non f/stuffs, Makro was a good place to go but as time went on it  went from bad to worse, so I am not surprised it was sold. Whether that is only the UK aspect or the entire Group I do not know. Haven't had the Makro Mail recently, so maybe  the change is the reason?

Tony Price ● 4935d

Also available mail order from Makrohttp://store.makro.co.uk/p-27037-oxo-gravy-granules-1x25ltr.aspxOr, if you know someone with a Makro card they can pick them up from the Park Royal store for you.

Nigel Brooks ● 4935d

Re  Naturally, none of my Jewish friends would ever object          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  quite right Nigel. Have you ever thought  that despite Judaism and Islam basically being the same up to a certain time, the tremendous difference in each  " group's " attitude to matters within the host countries.I am not aware of Jews ever complaining re this that or something else, but just get on with their own lives and leave others alone. Have you ever heard of Jews  heckling and abusing British soldiers coming home or attacking poppy sellers. In saying the latter I am assuming those who did/do are of the  fundamentalist Islamic faith. I can't imagine anyone else doing so and it is a recent phenomena?. I say to my Muslim friends the sooner they become Westernised the better as the Jews have done. Btw, I have yet to meet a Muslim who is anti-Jewish, some quite  respectful of. One friend actually said he would have preferred to be in a camp run by Israelis than the Saudis, where he went after fleeing Sadaam. I appreciate the numbers of Jews here are far less, but which used to be the other way round.

Tony Price ● 4935d

I was aware that I may have been 'fobbed off'. My letter to ADSA enquires whether it is company policy to stock only 'ethnically sensitive items'.I should perhaps have gone further and told them that were I a practicing Orthodox Jew then I would naturally object to their stocking of pork, shellfish (indeed any fish without fins) and all non-Kosher items.If they want to be sensitive then such policy cannot apply only to one ethnic group.Naturally, none of my Jewish friends would ever object to such items being sold, they simply do not choose to buy them and I doubt that ASDA have had comnplaints which is something else I have asked them to validate.

Nigel Brooks ● 4935d

Re  Maybe the product has been bought out by another brand.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    or hanging about for a long time??

Tony Price ● 4935d

Nigel - thank you for the heads-up re. Amazon Oxo gravy granules.  Very interesting because Premier Foods told me that they no longer make them.  Maybe the product has been bought out by another brand.

Andy Horridge ● 4935d

Re  a massive over-reaction on my part but for your comments.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Nigel, I haven't read any of the comments  but it is not an over reaction on your part, in fact I am rather surprised you should even think it is. I suppose it is slowly sinking in what is happening to our country,it is no longer what we are used to. A certain amount of diversity is a good thing but the way whole swaythes  of UK, especially London , and not only Ealing,are being changed out of all recognition. It is not a question of immigrants  fitting in with us but we fitting in with them and what they are doing and being allowed to do to us and our country. You talk about pork in Hounslow,where do you think, apart from supermarkets , have you any chance of buying pork. Southall, Hanwell, West Ealing apart from Luckhursts ?. Try Shepherds Bush market,in fact go there as an eye opener. We and our way of life Nigel are disappearing fast.Go to Wembley, which when I came to London was a white area, you will hardly see a white face there now. Take an upstairs bus ride  83  to Golders Green and see what I mean. There will of course be the traitors and trojan horses amongst us  who  will say people like me ( 80% of  the population ) are Nazis etc, but that just proves their lack of argumentative logic and frustration with the truth. What do you think will be the situation in 15 years time, bearing in mind the current content of the schools in the L B of Ealing. .

Tony Price ● 4935d

Probably nothing to do with "PC" as supermarkets ran computer programs which determine absolutely what the stock in individual branchs will be.Have you never heard them say "it's all done at head office" in response to stocking enquiries?Supermarkets focus ruthlessly on return per square metre of shelf space.It is therefore not at all surprising that there are no pork gravy granules on the supermarket shelves of Hounslow.Mind you, I would have given the "buffoon" a piece of my mind had they said that to me.  Probably somthing along the lines of "surely you are not suggesting that stocking strategy has been devolved back to the local branches are you?"

Tony Colliver ● 4935d

Keith, thank you.

George Knox ● 4935d

No M. This is the case at ASDA in Hounslow.I have had a similar experience there before.The meat dept. is franchised out to a halal butcher.

Keith Iddon ● 4935d

In that case George my sincere apologies.It is hard sometimes to appreciate the vein in which some comments on forums like this are made.I am flatterd that you use my suggestions.That you are happily still with us is at least vindication that my recipes are not toxic!

Keith Iddon ● 4935d

Bear in mind that the person who told you that may well have been making it up in order to provide some kind of answer, in the absence of any actual knowledge. It seems more likely (but this is also speculation) that they simply don't have enough demand for that product in that store, so like all major supermarkets except perhaps Iceland, they vary the stock they carry from area to area in order to meet demand.Let us know if you get a response from them with an explanation.

M. Duley ● 4935d

By saying the shop is an ethnically sensitive area is a straight denial of the shop being in an area where integration is the accepted norm. It means that the shopkeeper thinks he can discriminate on the grounds of ethnicity as to what foods he sells. That is a criminal offence. However the police or antidiscrimination people very probably won’t prosecute. But not because they have no will. But because there are much bigger things to spend out of their limited budgets on prosecutions. And because the poor sap in the shop quite possibly just knew no differently at all.Not guilty because he had not got a clue he was being offensive. Indeed he will say he did not mean to say that but actually meant to say that there is no business for pork. On that basis the magistrate might even believe him and dismiss the case. Police quite often don’t prosecute in such cases where there is no genuine mens rea, but just hand out a slap on the wrist.I hold the Labour party to account for 13 years of immigration mismanagement, and because the MP and his Research Officer either are doing insufficient with government and local money to make an impact on getting immigrants to integrate, (or if they are then failing to tell us) I cannot see why Ealing should deserve the Labour vote at the next local election.

George Knox ● 4935d

Keith I don't believe what you have said. I really genuinely follow your recipe advice.

George Knox ● 4935d

Make sure your pork rind is as dry as you can get it.You can pat it dry with a kitchen towel and then leave pork (the skin covered by paper towel) in the fridge on a plate for at least a couple of hrs.Take it out and dry it off again.Get a sharp knife and score lines into the rind at about 1/4 inch intervals.Lightly dust with salt.Give the pork a blast for about half an hour in a hot oven,the take out the meat to make sure no oil or moisture is on the skin.Pat it with a kitchel towel and do not baste the skin with oil of any type.Turn the oven down to a normal temp for the meat and check the skin for moisture from time to time.I do this every time I cook pork and it comes out looking just like Delia's in the ancient book I have.

Keith Iddon ● 4935d

No need for sarcasm George.Just trying to be helpful.

Keith Iddon ● 4935d

It's Ramadan and that is in July!!!Now is the time of Eid Mubarak one of the major festivals of the Muslim faith.I am glad that I live in a country where the faith of others can be practiced and respected. This sends a clear message of tolerance to the less enlightened countries of our world.Personally, I have no issue with 'aisles upon aisles' of ethnic produce. Much of it very tasty and I'm still learning how to cook a whole raft of south Asian dishes.My gripe is that, from my experience this morning, 'indigenous' products are not stocked because some PC buffon belives it will offend someone.

Nigel Brooks ● 4935d

They were probably saying more or less the same thing during the eighth century as all those marauders kept on invading our shores. Despite HG Wells War of the Worlds we are still here. Perhaps a knight in shining armour will be around the corner waiting to save you. Have faith or go and do something useful for your cause rather than wailing.

George Knox ● 4935d

We are slowly and surely being taken over by these aliens.I can't understand this remark ref.pork and a case of discrimination should be brought against the shop.Can't stand the amount of aisles upon aisles in the supermarkets full of foreign foodstuffs geared towards ethnics (especially now at the time of ramadam etc..) whom are accommodated and provided for in every area while traditional British products are eliminated. Not much longer before we are the minority. What is wrong with the British government and local councils.?? We are the laugh of the world ....any young ambitious indiginous Britsh person should get the hell out of this country cos there's nothing here for your future.If you stay here you will spend your working life supporting every miscreant that is allowed in by the British government....which at the time of your retirement will be made up of corrupt immigrants who have made no contribution whatsoever to the prosperity of this country ....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4935d

GeorgeDe-glazing is the 'poncey' cooks term for breaking up the glaze or fat and juices at the bottom of a roasting pan or frying pan by adding a liquid (normally alcohol) and adding flavour to a sauce or gravy by so doing.Perhaps the capitalism angle is spot on. In which case I would have expected to be told simply "we don't stock that product" perhaps I wouldn't have been spurred to post here as a result. Then again why advertise it?

Nigel Brooks ● 4935d

Apart from ham I don't eat pork, but isn't almost the whole issue here about profit, capitalism, etc, etc? If there is no profit from pork in say a given post code area, then why sell it?Forgive my ignorance but does deglazing mean in this context?Keith, I follow your cooking suggestions avidly.

George Knox ● 4935d

Andy.You can still get them but only in catering packs. Amazon (do they stock everything now?) have them listed at ......£19 for 1.58kg.I guess then, in response to your second point, that as the majority of the country have no impediment from religion or otherwise, to 'indulge' the there is no reason for Asda not to stock the products. I did a quick Google on 'pork sales volumes' and it would appear that sales of pork and pork products are soaring, according to the processors, as shoppers switch to less expensive meats.

Nigel Brooks ● 4935d

Initially, slightly going off-topic - I was peed off that Oxo gravy granules are no longer made.Secondly, getting back onto topic, 'with respect to pork products - whose country?' . . . . . .  I expect the answer is, "If the overwhelming majority of the population do nor want, or choose not to indulge in, pork products, effectively the country 'belongs' to that majority."  It's all a question of numbers.

Andy Horridge ● 4935d

THanks Keith.I have tried using cider to 'deglaze' the pan but the result wasn't brilliant.I must admit to liking the Gok Wan 'twice cooked' approach where you braise the pork until almost cooked before roasting at a really high temperature until you get 'crackling like no other'. It works and is delicious.I'll try your method over the weekend.

Nigel Brooks ● 4935d

Sorry,I wish I could edit what I wrote. You can add a tablespoon of cider vinegar or white wine vinegar I meant to say.

Keith Iddon ● 4935d

I know what you mean Nigel. The meat counter in Asda is exclusively halal and the deli counter only stocks Polish stuff,which is meat that has had the living daylights processed out of it.Rubbish they are for meat.You can take half a beef stock cube and half a chicken cube and make up with half water and half cider.A little(tablespoon) of cider or white wine vinegar will give it sweetness once simmered off.Whilst the meat is cooking drain off the fat,keep to one side, and collect the small pieces of meat that come away during the cooking process and add them to the gravy pan.If you do not want crackling,pour the fat you have reserved back over the meat to keep it moist.Once cooked scrape as much of the residual pork pieces from the bottom of the roasting tin and add to the gravy.After the gravy has been simmered(during some of the time the meat has been cooking)take a sieve and strain the gravy into another pan,pushing as much of the meat pieces in it through the sieve as is possible.To thicken the gravy,take a heaped teaspoon of cornflour(normal flour can be used) and mix it weell into a thick liquid with about four tablespoons of water and bring the gravy to a low rolling boil.Add the thickened water slowly,stirring the gravy with a spoon frequently.It should