Forum Topic

15,500 Responded to NHS Closure Plans

Councillor Taylor has drawn attention to today's Evening Standard which reports that NHS NW London recived 15,500 written responses to its hospital closures' consultation. One can only believe that 99.9% of respondents raised major objections to the proposed changes.If the NHS/Coalition Government ignores the will of the people they should not be surprised if some sections of society react violently against them.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4916d68 Comments

'The massive and escalating problem' of foreigners travelling to Britain to exploit the NHS is costing is billions every year, a senior doctor has warned.In a stinging article, Professior Thomas, consultant surgeon at the Royal Marsden hospital in London, cites a string of cases from across the NHS to conclude: 'It all adds up to clear, widespread abuse of our NHS by ineligible patients'.But he warned that the NHS may be 'addled with too many loopholes' to address the problem and could have 'reached a point of no return'.Last month Mr Cameron pledged a crackdown on health tourism, saying he wanted to tighten eligability to free care and do more to ensure the NHS recoups the money it is owed.In the Spetator magazine, Professor Thomas welcomes Mr Cameron's pledge, but said he had been 'overwhelmed' by letters informing him of the true scale of the problem since writing a piece in the same magazine just weeks ago highlighting how easily foreigtners can abuse the NHS.He quoted from a junior hospital doctor working close to Heathrow Airport. 'Every single week, I see people who have been flown in from all over the world with a variety of extremely serious health problems,' the letter said.'Many of these people had to be wheelchaired on to the plane because they were too ill to walk on board.'We often have our Intensive Therapy Unit full of patients without NHS numbers who are there for weeks or months with no means or intention to pay, which impacts on our resources'.It sounds like this is just a tip of the iceberg.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4744d

It's not rocket science to see why these facilities are closing. Whilst the idea is to pay NI into the system, no money is going in because hospitals, especially A&E departments are full of people who should not be here and have not paid into the pot. Having been to  the emergency  dept. at. Ealing hospital  following a road accident, I had to leave and go elsewhere. This was because the waiting area was full to the brim of people who seemed to be at a social club, laughing, kids running around, chatting etc  ANC certainly didn't seem to be in urgent need of treatment. Foreigners come straight from Heathrow to the hospital and demand treatment.The NHS cannot be sustained while the government refuses to close the doors on immigration and medical tourists. Anyone using the services should have to show proof of having paid NI for at least 5 years.....job done. Stop immigration and cap/reform benefits then there might be som hope otherwise the NHS will disappear ......

Marie Anne OConnell ● 4781d

There is a new post on the Chiswick Forum by Iris hill today:'Hunt's New Privatisation Plot' which forum members find interesting. Is this the way our NHS is heading?

Jean F Fernandez ● 4782d

They are ploughing £91Million into CXH for new facilities, I don't see it completely closing.Ealing on the other hand - unbelievable!!!

Nigel Brooks ● 4784d

Perhaps the people behind the plans to close all our local A&E departments should take themselves off to the new Mental Health facility when built as part of the new local hospital where Charing Cross Hospital once stood!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4784d

Well let us just hope and pray that residents in West London are never in urgent need of being transported to the nearest A&E once all the local facilities have closed down!Time is off the essence in many cases with heart patients and so on, the travel distance to the nearest A&E could well have an impact on the survival of the patient.With an ever increasing local population the strain on the NHS will increase, how on earth will the remaining hospitals function?Whether this is the will of any political party or the bosses in charge of the NHS the result is the same. Those who can afford private health care will not have to worry but the rest of us had better just hope we don't get sick!It is not just in this part of London that planned changes to the NHS are taking place. I believe they even want to sell of Whipps Cross Hpspital for real estate.This is a backward step as far as the NHS is concerned. There are better ways to save money in the NHS but this is not one of them.Sack the hoards of Managers who have no clinical experience, pay the nurses a decent wage and bring back matron. Make sure that those who are not entitled to free health care actually pay for treatment.I notice the NHS now seems to have money to offer IVF treatment to older patients. Whilst this service might be justified in a better financial climate perhaps it is time to reconsider just what type of treatment can be offered by the NHS for free.If we carry on like this I fear we will either have to have private health insurance or have a poor second rate NHS for everyone else.It would seem that the aim is to close hospitals just to  sell the land, with the loss of 327 beds at Ealing Hospital and well over 500 beds lost at Charing Cross! What about the patients?  If it is all about saving money in the NHS then perhaps more consultation must be taken BEFORE going ahead with changes, it is not good enough to ignore the will of the people.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4784d

I do so agree with all that Mr Forrester has to say.  Ealing Hospital A and E is like the kasbar.  Full of people sheltering from the rain, meeting friends and family etc.  If they were asked to pay for their emergency perhaps the people with real ailments would be dealt with far more quickly and efficiently.  I cannot believe how political some of the people writing about this issue are.. Please discuss the pros and cons of closing this A and E without getting into a slanging match about politics. It is childish and extremely unhelpful.

Avril Belford ● 4785d

Jean,Thanks for this agree agree agree. Clayponds must also go it seems. I'm 66 and that is where I would have been destined to go to be accessed and physioed after say a stroke. Free parking for visitors, walks and gardens, good ambience and staff create excellent atmosphere. A little jewel in the crown of our community. How dare they?

Arthur Breens ● 4786d

I just hope that Ealing Council will do everything in their power to fight the planned NHS closures.How can it be right to close so many A&E departments especially with an increasing population in West London?Is it all about making money by selling off the land as in the case of Charing Cross Hospital where 500 beds will be lost?David Cameron said the NHS is safe in his hands - sorry but I think I shall take this statement with a large pinch of salt!How can the views and concerns of the public be completely ignored? Unbelievable!The longer journey time to reach A&E will surely result in loss of life - maybe this is their way of reducing the population!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4787d

According to the latest headlines the proposed NHS Closure plans are to go ahead despite all the opposition!So the wishes of those who signed various petitions are ignored?There will probably be much more strain on the NHS when we have the new arrivals next year from Bulgaria and Romania.All you can wish for folks is just don't get sick!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4788d

Whoops!!!Meet at 10:30 am (not 12:30pm as in my previous post) outside Ealing Broadway Station to travel together to Lewisham Hospital closure demo.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4813d

Closure of Lewisham Hospital will result in 120,000 casualty patients and 4,400 pregnant mothers-to-be annually being diverted to goodness knows where. Thousands are travelling from all over England and London to join a massive demo in Lewisham today. The 2012 London Olympics Opening Ceremony nurses, Millwall Football Club, Desmond Tutu, all the healthcare Unions, NHS staff and of course patients will be joining in.Join us all from Ealing. Meet outside Ealing Broadway Station at 12:30pm today.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4813d

So if we are growing more homes and growing the population, then we should be growing more doctors and more nurses and hence more new hospitals or refurbishing and extending some of the clapped out hospitals.

George Knox ● 4864d

One wonders indeed whether charity should begin at home at keast until we are over the worst recession in living memory.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4864d

85% bed occupancy is apparently the safe threshold. The Guardian 3 December 2012  quotes the Dr Foster company (50% state owned) that death rates are 'alarmingly high' at more than 12 NHS Hospital PCTs. NHS figures are that in 11 out of the last 12 months 146 NHS Hospital PCTs had 90% bed occupancy. The Kings Fund has also just announced that the number of patients waiting more than 4 hours in A&E nationally rose this year by 19%.So the Heriot-Watt University figures of a 23% increase of rough sleepers January through August 2011 should not surprise us.The National Housing Federation (Guardian 3 Dec again) announced that 240,000 new households are being formed each year. However only 120,000 new homes are being built each year.So soon, horribly soon, 'we' won't be able to house thousands of us; won't be able to heal thousands of us; and more people will die needlessly.Welcome yet again to the seventh richest country in the world.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4864d

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20624889tells us today that A&E waiting times are increasing. I too have had bad experiences at the West Mid. I shudder to think what would happen if Ealing closes.I now can't find it on the BBC website but last week or the week before there was another report which said hospitals are bursting at the seams.If Ealing A&E shuts then virtually all departments will follow in time. That notwithstanding there is a baby boom in W London and Ealing is spending a lot on increasing classrooms in the Borough. Where will the new Ealing hospital be built in 20 - 30 years time?It's pity we don't have a chief Exec at Ealing Hospital who gives a damn about the needs of Ealingites. She should be out there fighting in the trenches. She isn't. Politically this is the biggest gift horse to the discredited Labour party for the next general election in W London.If Cameron does not get that then..........

George Knox ● 4864d

I had three experiences with the local NHS over the last few years.Two involving my father were  ambulance emegencies.The abulance service on both occasions were magnificent. Totally world class and the paramedics assessment more accurate than the doctors who took charge later.Ealing's A&E was utterly superb and saved his life in one instance.It goes wrong a bit post A&E. Out patient & GP care is poor and wards seem to be very understaffed and chaoticThe other instance was my partner who had a very nasty fall on her bike.A summer monday evening.She had a head injury & concussion, facial damage, arm damage, 999 deemed it not an ambulance emergency.  I drove her To no less than 3 hospital A&Es.Kingston, nearest turned her away- too busy.  WEst Middlesex - A&E queuing into the ambulance turning circle outside. Ealing 4 hour wait, Junior doctor no x-ray or scan.  She suffered permanent damaged which could have been averted.It is obvious to anyone that all these  A&E units do not have staff lolling around playing darts and snooker and reading OK magazine. They are very busy places. The general hospitals are more like a department store during sale day for much of the day.One centre will never be able to cope, from parking to infection control to the right balance and skillsets of staff. It never has worked when too unweildy.There are plenty of conservatives whose concerns range from livid to worried about these cuts and the blatant gerrymandering of 'consultations' but they have to draw strength and make a stand. It is far too an important issue to be politicised. And those pulling the strings need to know this from their own first and supported by the rest of us.I would rather have and extra £1 on my NI contributions - knowing it goes to local health care. Than let this mad idea loose on a burgeoning populus.

Michael Brandt ● 4864d

Many will find it hard to believe that residents voted in FAVOUR of closing the local A&E Departments leaving those in urgent need of treatment having to travel further to the nearest hospital with an A&E department! It would be like turkeys voting for Christmas!Let us hope that the feelings of ALL the people who signed petitions will be taken into account before any action is taken. I see that our MP Angie Bray has already raised the matter with David Cameron - we live in hope!It has often been reported in the press that the local population has already increased by around 20% so it makes no sense whatsoever to close the A&E Departments!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4864d

"We"Spot on Eric, and it's about time that "we" started to take responsibility for that rather than blaming everybody else.  "In a Democracy, the people get the government they deserve"http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080929000956AAaUFA8

Tony Colliver ● 4879d

'...the NHS is coming to....' the attempted reduction of our National Debt. Who caused this National Debt? I'm afraid it was, primarilly, successive UK Governments who allowed financial organisations to irresponsibly gamble with our money; to lend recklessly; and to pay themselves excessively. These UK Governments also allowed the UK mega-rich to avoid paying taxes and to squirrel away £trillions into offshore bank accounts.Who voted these UK Governments into power? We, the patients, are responsible for this foolishness.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4881d

What is the NHS coming to when an 89 year old man had to wait for 3 hours in an ambulance because the A&E ward was too busy to treat him. A month later his wife, also 89, has to wait in an ambulance for a similar length of time because the ward was full! OK so this was in Swansea but I have a dreadful feeling that there are many similar stories around the country.Apparently there is a shocking 300% rise in waiting times in some areas in the last 12 months.It would make one terrified of falling ill!

Jean F Fernandez ● 4881d

Private medical insurance is not going to help anybody when the chips are down.In an emergency only the NHS has the necessary facilities.I doubt that this important fact has escaped decision makers fortunate enough to be blessed with private insurance.They have their reasons I'm sure, but their own indemnity as a result of having private insurance can surely not be one of them.

Tony Colliver ● 4884d

And you know about my experiences of the hospital and those whom I know including those close to me over a very long period. I aint no politico in this debate.Do you really think there will be a bigger mess?Somehow I don't think the Eric Leaches will allow that to continue. The Chief Exec of this hospital has been seen less on the streets of the Borough than the Borough Commander.We will change that.

George Knox ● 4884d

Not inference. Experience. I would suggest that you try talking to a wide swathe of Ealing Hospital USERS. Not the politicos out to protect their jobs and their friends jobs, etc. Yes, it would cause me (and a lot of users) a lot of probelms if Ealing was to become a super-hospital. It would mean that the same people who have created the mess that we already have would be given the chance to make an even bigger mess. Small is beautiful and controllable.

John Arthur Forest ● 4884d

Eric, I sit corrected. I (mistakenly) thought that you were one of the political band-wagon chasers. I apologise.

John Arthur Forest ● 4884d

"Save it for WHAT? So more people will die?"Thanks for trying to frighten the horses.Just exactly what do you mean by that remark?If that's opinion only, well we can all have one.But if it is based on fact, which for me is the inference, then what data do you have? And it has to be pretty good data which covers each and everyone of the hospitals in the survey.And in any event I have made it plain that I wish to see Ealing becomes a Super Hospital. Is that such a problem for you?

George Knox ● 4884d

John Arthur - you must be hard of hearing as I campaigned in May, June, August and September 2008 about the performance of Ealing Hospital.'Insitutionally bankrupt', 'beyond repair' - do you really know what you are talking about?

Eric Alan Leach ● 4884d

It does appear that you are supporting the status quo, Ealing Hospital has been a dreadful place for a long time, it may even be institutionally bankrupt, that is beyond repair. I have not heard you saying anything in the past few years on the subject, yet now it is (hopefully) going to be closed you want to save it. Save it for WHAT? So more people will die?

John Arthur Forest ● 4884d

Campaigning for a better hospital?Do you really think I was campaigning for a worse hospital?Or were you just trying to be amusing - and failing?

Eric Alan Leach ● 4885d

Eric, I do not recall you campaiging for a better Ealing Hospital? Or did I miss something.

John Arthur Forest ● 4885d

My views exactly, Rosa. I cannot but wonder what a truly random telephone survey of Ealing's residents would have shown about Ealing Hospital rather than the carefully focused consultation that was no doubt filled in by activits!

John Arthur Forest ● 4885d

In a medical emergency it is a known fact that time is of the essence. Recent stories have revealed that not only does it take longer for an ambulance to actually arrive.A neighbour had to make more than one call when her child had a head injury. Add this to the fact that if they do need to be taken to hospital, further delay could be fatal.Furthermore, for those without transport need to visit a sick relative how on earth are they supposed to find their way to somewhere like Northwick Park Hospital? Many simply do not have a clue where this is.The truth of the matter is that this expercise is all about saving money, not saving lives. What does it matter if they 'lose' a number of sick elderly folk in the process?Sending a very ill person to a hospital in unfamiliar surroundings with doctors they have never seen before is hardly likely to be a positive step towards their wellbeing!I am well aware of the argument that patients can be stablised whilst in the ambulance, but in too many cases the ambulance takes far too long to actually arrive. Urgent treatment is necessary when it has been necessary to dial 999. I know, I have been in this situation on more than one occasion. It is especially important with heart patients, and in many more critical situations.I too shall try and highlight every reason why this ill thought out idea should be reconsidered. Every life is precious. The local hospitals should be improved to an acceptable standard and the local population who use these facilities can once more attend these establishments without having to be taken miles and miles away to an uncertain destination, and ourtcome!Unlike our MP's we can all affors private medical health care. Some of those who make these decisions should try living in the real world.With an ever increasing population, and more people living longer surely it would make more sense to have larger local A&E departments in our hospitals?If the NHS really is serious about saving money then how about the Government making a law to ensure that those who are not entitled to FREE NHS treatment actually pay for it?To hell with the EU and their demand that we treat EVERYONE regardless on whether or not they are resident in this country and entitled to free treatment.In many other countries visitors and non-residents must have medical insurance before entering that country.The NHS can take steps to reduce waste and I am sure many other ways could be implemented before picking on those who have worked in this country all their lives but then find they are going to be shunted about to some remote hospital in their time of need.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4885d

Everyone deserves a local State hospital. Everyone deserves a local State A&E facility. Pretty much everyone pays taxes to fund this - in my case over 45 years paying National Insurance. We need to make Ealing Hospital better not destroy it. It's pretty clear that a new hospital in Ealing will never be built to replace it.I really do hope that you or anyone does not die waiting for an ambulance to take you to Northwick Park or to Charing Cross Hospitals. Similarly I don't want anyone to die in an ambulance in a traffic jam trying to get to Hillingdon or Westminster and Chelsea Hospitals.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4885d

Guys,I am not a spokesman for the local, or national for that matter, conservatives. As I have already said, my comments are based merely my own, and my family, personal experience on Ealing Hospital’s out-patient's attendances and admissions and comparing it to the experience and quality of care received at other hospitals. For example, there is an ENT dept. at Ealing hospital, which is OK if you need basic care. However for more serious matters your doctor and Ealing's A&E itself will send you to Charing Cross in Hammersmith.  After waiting for nearly four hours, in excruciating pain, to be seen at the A&E, it is not fun to be told “sorry, we can’t help you here.  You need to go straight away to Hammersmith.”X-ray dept. could not pick up goldstones the size of cherries; lost medical file, misdiagnosis, these are just some of the problems I have had with Ealing Hospital in the 20 years or so that we have been living in Ealing. Once may be an accident, twice may be a coincidence, but from there on it seems that it has become a habit – or, maybe, we are just unlucky?So, if you, and the three political parties, want to carry on fighting to keep Ealing Hospital as it is, you are more than welcome. As far as I am concerned, and as long as I can help it, I’ll carry on going anywhere else but there.

Rosa Popham ● 4885d

Whoops!!!More haste, less speed ...in 2010/11 Ealing Hospital A&E had 84,000 attenders of which 30,000 were classified as 'more serious'.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4886d

> ...21,227 ... of which 30,000 were ... 'serious'Bl**dy h*ll!(Sorry to be flippant.)Did you mean 3,000?

Tony Colliver ● 4886d

George - you are right.Rosa's 'recipe' is straight out of the NHS /Tory Government 'cook book'.DoH figures show that last year Ealing Hospital treated 21,227 emergency admissions of which 30,000 were classified as 'serious'.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4886d

I don’t believe that any of you has bother to find out how many ‘seriously’ injured or seriously ill people with a life threatening condition such as strokes have been taken by ambulance in the last two/three years, to Ealing A&E dept.XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxThis is the kind of argument which I find annoying. It is NOT, repeat not for us to find out this information. It is for the people who present the proposals to give us the hard facts and then tell us how they have assessed the risk and then what the risk is perceived to be. Then the opponents can come up with a convincing argument to discredit that risk assessment – or not as they stack up the evidence. As an ex Councillor you will be aware that there is a constitutional/statutory duty to assess risk.Back in 1979 when the hospital opened, someone assessed needs and risks. They predicted population growth and said the hospital would meet those needs. Population growth at that time did not contemplate uncontrolled immigration and a hidden cohort of people needing health care.If the decision makers in 1979 assessed needs and gave us Ealing Hospital, please explain how our current day decision makers are more intelligent than those of 30 years ago. And in 30 years time after the local population has grown even more exponentially, please tell us where a new hospital would be built after the present hospital becomes a block of flats.There is hardly any detail about the infrastructure that will be introduced after hospital closures. That is shameful and dishonest. People will not support flimsy proposals on a wing and a prayer. Especially when it is the NHS.The local Tories oppose the closure. YOU are letting down the side, or perhaps opening the curtain on the real Tory mindset. Ealing should actually be a super hospital. The NHS will be safe in Tory hands? Pull the other one, Rosa.

George Knox ● 4886d

I don’t believe that any of you has bother to find out how many ‘seriously’ injured or seriously ill people with a life threatening condition such as strokes  have been taken by ambulance in the last two/three years, to Ealing A&E dept. The answer will, most probably, be none. More and more of them have been taken, whether by road or by air, to hospital that specialise in the particular kind of treatment that each individual patient needs.If someone is having an anaphylactic shock due to a severe allergy reaction, the paramedic will send that person  to St Mary’s in Paddington. Therefore Ealing A&E has already been downgraded and only caters for the less serious injury cases, the walking wounded and for those who are not or won’t register with a GP or for those who feel ill when their GP’s surgery is closed and they are told to report to the hospital out of hour surgery.  Perhaps the fight to fight for Ealing Hospital is not that to keep it at it is, but to assess which speciality it excels on and turn itself into specialist one  – whether it is maternity, or TB or whatever it is good at.

Rosa Popham ● 4886d

I know we already have too many people living on earth.  But planning for the elderly and seriously ill to die whilst travelling long distances in an ambulance or to die waiting far too long for an ambulance seems very much like gratuitous violence to me.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4887d

Closing and downgrading accident and emergency wards is 'the national direction of travel' the Government's emergency care tsar has admitted.The statement by Professor Matthew Cooke, who advises the Dept. of Health on A&E issues, signals for the first time that decisions to send patients greater distances for emergency treatment is central to the Government's health policy.David Cameron and Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt have insisted that a decision to close or downgrade a casualty ward has to be taken locally with the support of doctors and patients and is not influenced by Whitehall. But Prof Cooke has now suggested the move is backed by Ministers and is expected to spread to all corners of the country.It means many more patients suffering from heart attacks, strokes and life threatening trauma injuries can expect to be transferred further from home to regional 'centres of excellence' rather than local hospitals.A campaign by The Mail on Sunday has already identified 33 hospitals where the A&E department has either been closed or downgraded or is expected to be shut or re-organised. Our petition calling on Mr Hunt to halt the closures has been signed by nearly 40,000 readers.Prof Cooke made his comments to 2 separate NHS bodies holding consultations into whether to make change to A&E units.One consultation, Healthier Together, in the South East Midlands, is looking at transferring all emergency cases to 3 of its 5 hospitals.A source from the consultation said that gynaecologist Ed Neale, technical lead for the programme, had recently discussed the plans with Prof Cooke to make sure what was being proposed 'was not out of sync with the national picture'.The source said: 'we have discussed our emerging models with him and we have been reassured that this is the direction to travel nationally.Prof Cooke told Ed, "This would fit in with my thinking of how emergency medical care is going. It's the direction to travel." Prof Cooke also spoke to NHS North West London, which has held a public consultation into its Shaping A Healthier Future plan. This involves closing 4 of the regions 9 A&E units.A spokesman for NHS North West London said 'Matthew's role is about examining each specific plan in detail but setting national direction. In this context NHS NW London's plans fit in with his own direction of travel, which makes clear that in conurbations like London, A&E's do need to change, so long as GP's agree.This newspaper has made repeated attempts to interview Prof Cooke but the Dept of health has refused to make him available. A spokesman for Prof Cooke did not deny he supports the closures. In a statement, the spokesman said: 'There is long-standing clinical evidence that patients suffering from heart problems, stroke and life or limb-threatening injuries have the best results when they are seen by doctors, nurses and therapists with specialist expertise.Doctors and other healthcare professionals are best placed to decide what services are better provided in larger specialist centres.'Article written by Jo Macfarlane, Medical Correspondent

Jean F Fernandez ● 4888d

Rumours flying around before a Council health meeting last night suggest that Arthur Breens' worst fears about the flawed consultation have become realised. Allegations about 100s or 1,000s of multiple responses from a single source have been made. As Arthur has pointed out if no signature is required or no attempt is made at individual validation of responses then market research 'fraud' is a real possibility.The organiser of the consultation - Ipsos MORI - is probably the largest, most well known market research company in the country.Oh dear.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4893d

Yes Jean this was in my copy of Private Eye. On top of a flawed consultation all the changes were not presented to the public. The very hospitals where action would be concentrated are also involved in these bed cuts. Maybe Mark Stevens or Phil Taylor might help explain. Just as they avoided an explanation of why they thought it was so important to complete a flawed consultation. Is this not strange advice to give punters? Anyway soon Ipsos Mori will reveal all and so they should at £7,000,000 a go. This feels like the Tram debacle all over again.

Arthur Breens ● 4893d

Yes Jean this was in my copy of Private Eye. On top of a flawed consultation all the changes were not presented to the public. The very hospitals where action would be concentrated are also involved in these bed cuts. Maybe Mark Stevens or Phil Taylor might help explain. Just as they avoided an explanation of why they thought it was so important to complete a flawed consultation. Is this not strange advice to give punters? Anyway soon Ipsos Mori will reveal all and so they should at £7,000,000 a go. This feels like the Tram debacle all over again.

Arthur Breens ● 4893d

Article in today's Evening Standard which might be of interest:1,000 HOSPITAL BEDS MAY GO UNDER 'SECRET PROPOSALS'More than a quarter of hospital  beds in north-west London, amounting to almost 1,000, are earmarked for closure by 2015 under what campaigners claim are secret plans.Hospitals including the Chelsea and Westminster, Charing Cross, West Middlesex and Northwick Park would each lose more than 100 beds, on top of the planned closure of four local A&E Units. The proposals, in a North-West London Hoapitals NHS Trust pre-consultation document, were not included in the recent public consultation on the closures of the A&E unts.Dr John Lister, of the London Health Emergency campaign group, said: "This shockingly irresponsible plan is effectively being smuggled through."The trust had not commented by the time of going to press.

Jean F Fernandez ● 4907d

The NHS makes great play of saying that clinicians (ie GPs) support the hospital closure plans.On 24 September 2012 (almost one month ago) I attended a public meeting in West Ealing with the medical 'architect' of the NHS NW London cuts proposals - Dr Mark Spencer. I asked him to give me the names of just two West Ealing NHS clinicians who supported his proposals. I'm still waiting for those names....

Eric Alan Leach ● 4910d

Wait until you see the full cost (if ever fully revealed)of the unwanted (save for by a few retailers) Southall car park and the 'pretty interchange' at North Acton Station (silk purse and sow's ear spring to mind). Together they will make gold plated grass look damnably cheap.

Nigel Brooks ● 4911d

Come on - get real. You sound like you have swallowed a market research textbook.The consultation document was 15 pages long. It was a pig to fill in. The online version timed out on me and many others when we were all half way through completing it.The 80 pages of proposals asked Joe Public to comment on new healthcare arrangements for 2 million people across 100 square miles. It was, I gather, the most radical and complex re-organisation which has been suggested in any NHS region in England. Even asking 330,000 folks in Ealing their views on new healthcare arrangements across 21 square miles would have been challenging enough.We were all asked the wrong question. I now live in Hanwell. I should have been presented with and asked my views on new healthcare provisioning for a generation in Hanwell. Me and the rest of Joe Public in Hanwell could have got our minds around that one.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4912d

1,000 is a good sample size when chosen randomnly. So a telephone poll of 1,000 people chosen randomnly in West London would be excellent. A 0.75% response though with a target audience of 2,000,000 is not so great.

John Arthur Forest ● 4912d

Yep, that park business gets up my nose as well.I can't match your half a century, but I can offer well over a third of a century of solid tax paying (not including my days as a non-earning minor of course).No doubt you will have the opportunity to confirm your desire to be further squeezed when the time comes.

Tony Colliver ● 4912d

Councillors have agreed to spend £5.4 million "paid for by other people" to gold plate the grass in Walpole Park...yes just the park not the house. Is that about £45/square meter? That gets up my nose. Those "other people" include me. The park is fine as it is but the public health services must move forward and I for one am happy to pay for them as I have done for almost half a century and to continue paying for them. Surprisingly we do well here compared to other countries in terms of getting more and better medicine for our buck under the NHS system. I'm paying tax so squeeze me.

Arthur Breens ● 4912d

Three acres is nowhere near sufficient for a hospital of the scale envisaged.

Tony Colliver ● 4912d

I thought a sample size of 1,000 was considered very significant in terms of gauging the true feelings of the population on any issue at all...?

Tony Colliver ● 4912d

"Why are you a councillor Phil if you don't have an interest in high quality public services paid for by other people?"It was the "paid for by other people" bit of this sentence that really got up my nose.Perhaps he thinks it is immoral to squeeze those few of us left actually paying any tax anymore than we already are being?Never mind the "big companies" argument - I'd be a lot happy if the burden of tax was spread a lot more evenly amongst the general population.It's easy to justify and vote for ever-rising public expenditure when it is not you actually paying for it.

Tony Colliver ● 4912d

Don't let them get away with it.Write again and demand specific answers to your specific questions.Insist on a named contact.keep writing and keep insisting until you get real answers.I have done this with uncooperative officals on many occassions in the past (of course, email is easier than a real letter).They don't like it, but it often does, eventually, get the required answers.

Tony Colliver ● 4912d

If we cannot have a cinema on the three acre Empire Cinemas site opposite the Town Hall, couldn't we have a nice modern hospital close to underground and overground rail links and centrally located for once?

John Arthur Forest ● 4912d

I seem to have rattled you a little. It is very important that we have services that are safe and deliver well. At present we do not have these in West London. I have had multiple bad experiences over the years at these hospitals.

John Arthur Forest ● 4912d

What is nepotistic supposed to mean as regards Ealing Hospital? What is relevant is whether the medical staff are any good at their job - here or anywhere in the UK.Statistically insignificant? Do you really think that people think just numerically? You have already shown that you are swayed by 120,000 illegals. What do you know?I would a little surptrised if the residents of Ealing don't want a super hospital and that is what I want. Incidentally I have seen better A&E services at Ealing than at West Mid. But that is not what we are talking about.

George Knox ● 4913d

From a base of 2 million possible respondents that would mean that 15,000 respondents would equal a response rate of 0.75%. Essentially statistically insignificant. I do wonder how many of the vocal opponents of this re-organisation (including those on these forum) have experienced any of these A&E departments at their worst? For once I am on the side of the system and the NHS. There are good reasons why these nepotistic departments are being closed. Reform and improvement have been ineffective so the only option is to start again. We should be capaigning for a new "Super Hospital" in Ealing rather than trying to hang onto low-grade services that do more harm than good in comparison with the proposals.

John Arthur Forest ● 4913d

@ JFIf only it were 10 minutes.Has anyone told you that ambulance crews are to be cut as are firemen who attend some accidents, and there is some talk about the ambulance service being privatised so so the operatives can be paid the minimum wage.

George Knox ● 4913d

George,Spot on yet again. No details of infrastructure. This reorganisation is in reality a massive rebuilding programme.Wipe this out here, demolish this, enlarge this, sell this for flats and oh of course keep the patients flowing through and try to retain your most talented staff. My knowledge of the construction industry tells me this is a very high risk strategy barely alluded to in the consultation. Why do you think they kept quiet about that?

Arthur Breens ● 4913d

Ben,Thank you for this. The Consultation Response Team at NHS NWL wrote to me today in reply to my criticism of their consultation that Phil worked so hard to encourage people to complete. This was an Olympic standard ice-skating reply. It was apparently trialled on a sample group; one of my criticisms was no trial. But where are the details of the trial? I attended two meetings at Lords and one at Wembley and raised the problem of consultation design and a road-map. Brushed aside.There was no attempt to control fraud...no reply to this. There was no attempt to measure distribution (easily done by a postcode requirement). They said IpsosMori did this. How?Why then did they ask me recently if I knew of any hard to reach groups they may have missed. Finally they said that they were sorry that that I thought gathering the views of many thousands of people was a waste of time thereby missing the point that had you asked millions it would be of little use if the consultation design was flawed. A flawed design and distribution results in invalid conclusions. Was that their aim in the first place? The bit I find very offensive at the end is there is no signature to take responsibility for this email. Could have signed it Mark Stevens Phil?

Arthur Breens ● 4913d

Ben, even a Tory can oppose the proposals and I think that is what Councillor Taylor has been doing, albeit not very publicly until recently.He is impressed that 15,500 people, including me, completed the form. I don't know how these things work, but we are talking about perhaps 2M people in W London.Apart from being stoutly opposed to the proposals especially re Ealing Hospital, what worries me very greatly is that no infrastructure has been defined to fit each and every alternative. In fact no infrastructure has been offered except in a few wild high level words. Do these people really think that the people in West London are such fools? How dare they insult us. Do they really think everything will be alright on the night? This is a much bigger than the tram issue. If we see massive closures of the A&Es the Coalition will suffer hugely. But since the initiative was started by the Labour party (even then there were rumours about Ealing Hospital) how shall we vote on this issue?

George Knox ● 4913d

Considering that around 450,000 live in Ealing (330,000 legals + 120,000 illegals) at 15,000 questionnaires that gives us a response rate of between four and fiver percent. Hardly an overwhelming statement of support. Bearing in minf that the thivk end of this would have been trade unionists, health workers and those with vested interests in these hospitals this is hardly a statement of support for these hospitals and is reflective of the turnout at the twon hall for the public meeting that had hardly any end-users at it. Personally, I would rather travel ten minutes by ambulance and have a fighting chance of survival rather than being delivered to the hands of the extended family of patronage that staffs and operates these hospitals.

John Arthur Forest ● 4913d

Hello Phil, representing The Nasty Party.Cameron and Osborne - your local specialists in damaging your health. These two big blue tits pronounce that one million new private-sector jobs has been created, and at the same time alert you to the "inevitable loss of jobs in the state sector".So, there we have it. We can predict that this biased consultation that took ages and ages for me to fill in is a consultation for consultation's sake. By law, they have to consult. But who will listen to the answers of the people? Will David & George, who probably disgrace themselves in having private health care? Clearly you won't. Do you represent your ward with their opinions, or just carry your beliefs to the chamber?Walking on the marches to Ealing Hospital and Charing Cross I heard stories of how husbands, wives, sons and daughters were saved from losing their lives at all the different hopsitals threatened with closure. The local A&E saved them. Karen Buck, MP, for Westminster North (?) was one of the speakers at Lillie Rd recreation ground, which is outside Charing Cross Hospital. She told us how the night before the demostration she rushed her husband into hospital and took him to their nearest A&E, which is St.Mary's, in Paddington. When she got there, she was turned away because there was no room. Another desperate rush to Central Middlesex and her husband's life was saved. A hospital like St. Mary's coping with a population of nearly 400,00 to treat. Clear evidence that it is impossible. Ealing Hospital has to be saved.This makes me so mad I better stop writing now.

Ben Owen ● 4913d

Phil,It is difficult predicting the future.Who, for example, would have predicted 300 people rioting in West Ealing centre for three hours on the night of 8/9 August 2011, with no Police presence whatsoever?Your Political Party is running a Government which is obsessed with taking money of the already poor, disabled and vulnerable. And you don't expect a public order response to this?I can only wonder whether this is a failure of education, life experience or imagination on your part.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4913d

Phil, why do you think filling in the consultation in such large numbers will impact on the decision makers? This consultation looked at critically from any angle appears to be a sort of PR process to be gone through rather than a rigorous exercise to inform. Hey and I am one of those people who want high quality public services and my accountant and pay slips will tell you that I like many other taxpayers paid for them. Why are you a councillor Phil if you don't have an interest in high quality public services paid for by other people? What we would like to see is more tax from the multinational offshore sector paying their fair share/any share of taxable profits made in the UK.

Arthur Breens ● 4913d

Eric,Having spent a large part of the summer persuading people to respond to the consultation it is great news that 15,500 people took the trouble.  It should have a large impact on the decision makers.  It is intemperate of you, and unwelcome, to talk about violence.  The will of the people as you put it is to have lots of high quality public services and to have someone else pay for them.  This "will" will ultimately be disappointed if not by honest governments then by honest markets.  What we can ask for is that NHS NWL comes up with proposals that do not unfairly ask Ealing to take all the pain of their re-organisation.

Phil Taylor ● 4915d