Forum Topic

Microsoft Finally Makes a Loss

For the first time ever Microsoft has posted a loss - $492 million for the quarter ending June 2012.It's comforting to see criminal companies doing badly.Although the UK and US Governments would never attempt to charge Microsoft for illegal behaviour, the European Commission did. Microsoft was found guilty by the EC of illegally maintaining a monopoly and fined EUROS 1.75 billion. Microsoft spent millions appealing this decision and every appeal failed. It has finally accepted the decision and probably even paid over the cash.In October this year Microsoft will again attempt to 'sell' a new version of Windows (version 8) which might not keep failing (as did and do versions 1 to 7).

Eric Alan Leach ● 5009d25 Comments

There are plenty of rumours about the reasons why there has been a UK monopoly, including a handout of 100,000 pound backhanders to prominent politicians plus a large mansion just round the corner from Marble Arch. Peanuts for that kind of company.

Chris Bell ● 4937d

I wouldn't work for Microsoft.Work mates who joined MS pretty quickly dropped out of free thinking conversations about standards, open systems and scaleable interoperability.They were briefed to say nothing or just to extoll the virtues of MS proprietorial solutions and releases.To be fair IBM folks were somewhat like that in the 70s and 80s when they still had market dominance. But then there was a healthy IBM compatible market. And the IBM PC specification was an open one and lots of other companies produced compatible PCs creating a healthy market with choices.But there has never been a healthy market with choices for PC operating systems - and we are talking about a period of over 30 years.I am sure there are concerns that Apple and Google might throw their weight around illegally. There is a worry that Apple and Google may become MS-like bullies in the market. But that's were laws come in. Generally it's not illegal for a monopoly to exist but it's illegal for a vendor to actively maintain that monopoly. The USA and European nation states have been pathetic about monopoly maintaining  enforcement. Thank goodness for the EC having the balls to keep hounding MS. Maybe they will do the same with Apple and Google if necessary - although the EC's failure to stop monopoly maintaining by Murdoch/Sky has been poor.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4937d

A subscriber to a group correspondence list I subscribe to did work for Microsoft for about a year. He was one of about 48 people involved in a single project. They were split into three independant teams of eight programmers, plus artistic advisers and a few layers of management. Each of the three teams of programmers had a weekly meeting with artistic advisers and lower management, and amended guidelines and instructions were issued. There was a monthly meeting of all three teams plus artistic advisers plus more management, and more new guidelines and instructions were issued. The project was still not completed after a year. The project was to design the "start" button bottom left of the main desktop together with its menu.There were several comments from other list subscribers about any competent programmer being able to get the entire project finished within one working week.Microsoft is notorious for grabbing software and facilities from anyone and anywhere, regardless of copyright. If anyone complains they are prepared to spend vast amounts of money in court or simply buy the company.Apple are currently in better shape than Microsoft, which is hardly surprising when they sell hardware at very high prices together with an extremely expensive front end to Free Open Source Software (BSD). If the hardware fails and they do not agree to an inherent fault they charge huge prices for repairs.

Chris Bell ● 4937d

Eric - thank you for taking the time to post some rationale behind your original post - I appreciate it.I will put in a more detailed reply when I have time, but the first and most obvious question I have for you is: would you feel this same way if you worked for Microsoft? i.e., imagine you were offered a 6 figure job with them, would you still hate them as much? Put another way, I would imagine that there are many with your DNA who work at MS. Isn't MS just behaving like any big software vendor who corners the market?

Robert Paton ● 4937d

Well I clearly don't like Microsoft. It's probably a chip on my shoulder. A bit like the chip that some on this thread have about Linux and Mac users.I worked with a number of software companies (mostly US ones) who were broken by Microsoft's corrupt practices. Folks lost their jobs and folks lost their investments.More specifically  I worked for 15 years on the concept of open systems and standards-based software interoperability. MS tried its damnedest to wreck this worldwide initiatve at every opportunity - and still does.I don't like to see the bad guys winning. It broadcasts the wrong message to those growing up. I'm a bit of an idealist.The smug arrogance of Microsoft is something I detest. So it pleases me to watch as they hopefully will be fined $billions and $billions by the EC. I do enjoy to see them stumble and hope in my lifetime that they go bust. MS Windows will continue to be supported by someone and the bugs in it will continue to appear.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4937d

What would you rather do, shut down Microsoft?What is your point here?

Robert Paton ● 4938d

Whow - economics: a discipline about as revered as pyramid selling.'Lefties', 'work hard, earn hard' - both empty platitudes.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4938d

It's all economics, stupid!Lefties always have a hard time with this!Work hard, earn hard!

Robert Paton ● 4938d

Gates - just like the pirate Rockafeller (spelling? )and the dodgy Carnegie before him - wants to be loved before he dies. But they all cheated and robbed during their life times and just 1 percent of Gates' fortune will happilly set up any kids he might have - for life. They all love to play God with their riches. Also why don't they just give and shut up about their giving - that's what I do.You can't take it with you when you die.No doubt the very wonderful VAT fraudster Branson will start to make these grandiose giving away money gestures as he approaches death - no doubt via Virgin Death which he'll soon set up.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4939d

Eric, you're completely wrong to write that "Also Gates is so rich that what he spends on charity is a drop in the ocean and probably within the bounds of some sort of tax write off."You clearly aren't aware of two key facts:1. Bill Gates has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth to charitable causes before he dies2. He and Warren Buffet (who has made a similar pledge) have been at the front of efforts to sign up 100 other Billionnaires to also donate - the money pledged to date to tackle poverty, disease and public hygiene projects is being used in some of the poorest countries:http://givingpledge.org/

Tony Gould ● 4939d

Nigel - my arithmetic is about as reliable as MS Windows...'It hardly was a monopoly when competition was scarce'. What's this the Adam Smith School of Justice? Do you want to be judge and jury yourself? Is European Law not good enough for you? The US and the UK Goverments wimped out on taking on Microsoft - but the EC took on MS, found them guily and took $0.75 billion off them in fines.I'm a PC user.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4939d

Surely Apple need to be more harshly treated  her then Microsofta lawsuit for the smallest thing which relates to anything apple.Also it hardly was a monopoly when competition was scarce.The browser choice is up to consumers, its not MS fault for providing a software with  a default browser.lets all look at each other first especially if you own a Apple product before  MicrosoftIm intrigued to see what Eric uses MS/Apple or hopefully neither

Charles Asante ● 4939d

I thought he was younger;  sorry Eric.

Nigel Brooks ● 4939d

37 - he meant 37!  :-)

Tony Colliver ● 4939d

Really?"47 years beginning in 1967", well that takes us to 2014 and I didn't even need to use Excel to figure that out :-).

Nigel Brooks ● 4939d

Okay - so that is even longer than me and you will therefore be aware of all of the issues.Hopefully you will forgive me for the presumption as we "IT" people do not exactly form a large percentage of the population.I was of course responding to your, perhaps throwaway, final point:    "...which might not keep failing..."With regard to the criminal aspect referred to in your note I actually agree - ignoring the law is not on.

Tony Colliver ● 4939d

I worked in the software industry for 47 years beginning in 1967. For 15 years I worked in distributed software, being heavilly involved in international standards. So I am not really 'an average user of software'.What I'm trying to point up here is criminal behaviour which happens to be in an industry I was massively involved in for decades until I retired in 2004.

Eric Alan Leach ● 4939d

> which might not keep failing Without wishing in any way to excuse failing software have you any idea whatsoever what is actually involved in fully debugging a complex software program such as Windows?As a lifelong software professional I have, so it is a little annoying, though perhaps understandable, to see this kind of thoughtless mantra constantly repeated.Yes, it is irritating to have software fail from time to time, but do you have any idea of the cost involved in making it as reliable as the software that powers aerospace kit?  (And even that fails from time to time.)In other words - you get what you pay for - a reasonably reliable product for a reasonable'ish (or at least "affordable" for the ordinary guy in the street anyway) price.I suspect, if you are an average user of software - i.e. not a professional IT person - then you experience of what is after all an extraordinarly complex system such as a PC operating system (whether Windows or Linux) is rather more frustrating than mine.This is because, as a professional, I know how to stay out of trouble in the first place and / or fix it far more readily when something does go wrong.I'm not boasting here - in this respect this is absolutely no different to the car mechanic (or keen enthusiast), the electronic engineer who is capable of maintaining his own TV, or the washing machine repair man - all examples of gadgetry which, when it fails, the ordinary citizan is left impotently fuming waiting for an expert to come along and fix it for them.In my time as an engineering contractor I have worked on everything from reverse engineering the control systems for the Exocet missile (the Frenchies wouldn't tell us how they worked back in the Falklands era), written software to keep minesweepers on target (accuracy is vitally important here! :-) ), designed underwater torpedo tracking systems, control systems for transatlatic communications cables, spent ten years writing trading systems for the current Pulic Enemy #1 - merchant bankers, and software to control automatic gearboxes connected to 1500 horsepower motors in battle tanks to name just a few projects that I have been invovled in.I can assure you that the cost of this software far exceeds anything that is remotely within the budget of the ordinary PC user.In other words - you get what you pay for.  And frankly, you get a staggering amount of functionality for the very low cost involved.[My honourable fellow professional will now no doubt be unable to resist the temptation to now present the case for "free" software such as Linux.  unfortunately, however, this is destined to remain a minorty interest for enthusiasts only, pending the acquisation of a global scale marketing budget to push the many benefits of the product to the masses.  it is also worth bearing in mind that it is fundamentally no more reliable or any easier to use (neither is it harder either) than Windows.  The difference is that, when it breaks, a skilled professional has full access to the entire set of blueprints (i.e. the source code) together with the wherewithall to (re)manufacture the product having fixed the bug.  Something which will of course continue to be beyond the abilities (or indeed desires) of the ordinary citizen - with or without the full source code.]

Tony Colliver ● 4939d

Microsoft continues to behave like a juvenile delinquent. A potential fine of $7.4 billion awaits the Seattle monopoly maintainer if it doesn't comply with a July 2012 directive from the European Commission. This directive instructs MS to actually comply with the 2009 EC directive which would facilitate a choice of browsers for PC users.What a wonderful role model Microsoft is to our young people....

Eric Alan Leach ● 4939d

We should follow our leaders and accept a large mansion just round the corner from Marble Arch, and 100,000 pound donations as apparently offered to several other politicians for accepting a Microsoft monopoly.

Chris Bell ● 5009d

There are plenty of billionaires who never give anyone else a red cent unless they have to. I don't think we should turn our noses up at Bill Gates's massive donations.

Susan Kelly ● 5009d

Murphy - you might be Wong. Gates earns £15,000 every minute; over £20 million each day; some $600 million every month etc, etc, etcSure he is only now worth $61 billion  - and it must be a worry for him....

Eric Alan Leach ● 5009d

Of course breaking the law is wrong, did I say it was not?Microsoft got caught, were convicted, appealed, lost and paid up. Would that it were the same for all of the other companies and individuals.Bill Gates has given over $26 billion through his foundation to charities and good causes over the last ten years.If that's a drop in the ocean then I'm Chinese and call me Murphy.

Nigel Brooks ● 5009d

So, breaking the law is OK is it?Gates, like Rockerfeller, Carnegie and other very rich bandits and pirates often want to play God with their ill gotten gains and be loved before they die.Also Gates is so rich that what he spends on charity is a drop in the ocean and probably within the bounds of some sort of tax write off.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5009d

The only reason that they made a loss was a mssive write-down on a bad investment in n internet advertising company.Discount that and they made almost $5billion for the quarter in question.Like them or loathe them (I actually quite like them and particularly Bill Gates for his charitable works) they are ubiquitous and with us to stay.

Nigel Brooks ● 5009d