Forum Topic

Ealing Hospital Accident & Emergency to Close

No it's not a spoof - it's a real possibility.A meeting at Ealing Town Hall on Tuesday 26 June starting at 7:30pm has some very knowledgable speakers who will outline how this massive, life threatenng closure might pan out or how we might all pull together to stop it happening.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5032d46 Comments

Phil,Thank you.I think we all realise that controlling expenditure - whether it be a domestic, corporate or national budget - involves difficult choices.Services to keep us alive, in good health and providing support for the disabled and the elderly have been universally, freely available in England now for over 50 years. The vast proportion of tax payers/voters I'm sure want this to continue.To achieve this £20 billion has to be saved from £1.6 trillion annual bill, every year, for running the UK. As you say no Political Party is willing to commit to finding this money. This will make the next General Election an interesting one as no doubt many voters will be so disillusioned on healthcare they won't want to vote for any of the large Political Parties.Clearly many hospitals in the UK will close down - with Ealing Hospital being one of them. Some people with savings will not want to risk dying in an ambulance travelling from Ealing to Hillingdon Hospital. These people will prioritise their spending on healthcare and go private. But where will they go? There is no private A&E in Ealing or in West London. Should we anticipate that some private healthcare company is waiting in the wings to buy Ealing Hospital when the State shuts it down? There is nothing in the Government approved Local Plan for Ealing (2012 - 2026) about allocating land use for any new healthcare facilities.Should we also expect that healthcare insurance companies are also waiting in the wings to charge us all money (in addition to us paying  National Insurance) to stay alive and healthy?I can not imagine that the Coalition Government or indeed the Conservative Party does not have a plan for State healthcare services to be replaced by private healthcare services. Can we see this plan please? The 4 page version will be more digestible than the 80 page version as well.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5020d

Yet more corrupt and underhand behaviour by public authorities in west London

Chris Veasey ● 5020d

It would appear that the process of closing Ealing Hospital A&E is already in process.Care homes in Ealing have been told not to send their A&E patients to Ealing hospital A&E any more.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5020d

Eric,I am against the closure of Ealing hospital. It is my local hospital and I use it as do my neighbours.  But you made a statement that is wrong.  The £20 billion isn't a one off amount.  It is a recurring annual amount equivalent to 1/8th of all income tax in our country.  It isn't history.  It would be an extremely large change to our national finances if we were to agree to put the £20 billion back in that Labour opted to take out and reinvest in new services.  This choice was driven by predictions of rising demand.  These are very complicated choices and we are clear that we don't want to see our area lose out but no party is offering to find the £20 billion per annum to keep things as they are and still deal with rising demand.

Phil Taylor ● 5020d

No, only for the banks of course so they can carry on paying obscene unearned salaries and even more obscene unearned bounses to some staff - got to get our prioritiex right haven't we?

Chris Veasey ● 5021d

Phil,I don't really care whether the history of this is the 'Is it really butter' challenge or the 'Pepsi/Coke' challenge. The vast proportion of Ealing rate payers I suspect don't want Ealing Hospital to close.As usual you want to bring Party politics into this.Do you want Ealing Hospital to close? If you don't then I suggest you campaign for this. Ealing Conservatives, of which you are clearly a member, is campaigning against closure. If you do want the hospital to close I suggest you campaign for its closure.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5021d

Eric,Just to clarify Labour's £20 billion Nicholson challenge kicked off by Labour health secretary Andy Burnham aims to take £20 billion per annum out of NHS costs and reinvest it in new services.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/6208651/NHS-told-to-find-ways-of-saving-20-billion.htmlTo unwind it you would need to find £20 billion every year.  This is the equivalent of 1/8th of all income tax collected in this country (total about £160 billion per annum).  I don't hear any politician of any party suggesting raising an extra £20 billion for the NHS.

Phil Taylor ● 5021d

Did you really expect them to plan ahead like that?  That would be one miracle too many!

Ruth Goldsborough ● 5021d

A new issue has come to light if/when Ealing Hospital closes. Ealing A&E patients will not only have longer journeys to more remote hospitals, they will have longer wait times for ambulances. If ambulance journeys are all longer then this will reduce the availability of these ambulances.I have read nowhere about plans to hire/purchase additional ambulances never mind plans to hire/train more ambulance drivers.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5021d

NHS North West London don't want to close hospital A&E departments  on the basis of quality of service. They just want to close them. My memory doesn't recall a ranking exercise and the bottom 3 being chosen for closure.  Geography and journey times don't come into it. They just want to close them. Need doesn't come into it. They just want to close them. Cameron and Lansley want Ealing Hospital to stay open but again NHSNWL just want to close it. I have a nagging feeling that if you re-position things you might improve them. This however is something different. Last night I was moved to the core by the statements of health workers from Ealing Hospital. You close their workplace and you risk damaging their motivation and care at your peril. We all lose out. My firm opinion as I came out of last night's meeting was that doing nothing was a real option for the moment and a better system for forward planning must be devised. I'm with Pound, Stafford, Bell, Sharma, Bray, Sahota, Malcolm et al on the protest march  to Downing Street in September. Anyone joining us?

Arthur Breens ● 5022d

Agree with your overall point, but don't agree the building is 'miserable' certainly not internally - many parts are quite bright and cheerful and welcoming. I know of plenty worse and far more miserable hospital buildings  elsewhere. And be assured the staff are anything but 'uniformly' excellent - some staff certainly are, and many are not bad, but some staff on some wards are the worst I've ever experienced anywhere and should never be allowed anywhere near any sort of caring role (and in some cases anywhere near any sort of employment), particularly one of essential medical care. See some of the earlier posts on this thread by me and others - soundly based on solid and extensive personal experience, thankfully in my case not firsthand as a patient/victim, just accompanying and visting others.But closing down the hospital is not the answer - closing down staff like that and replacing them with staff of the requisite calibre and attitude is.

Chris Veasey ● 5022d

I have only been to A and E once and, in spite of all the drunks etc. there was seen quickly and received good treatment.I have had 4 operations in Ealing over the past four years, two for cancer, and received the best treatment and care that anyone could have asked for. For follow up appointments I now have to travel to Northwick Park hospital.My daughter has been a nurse there for over thirty years and her main complaint is that there are too many Managers, most of who have little to do, they are not needed and are a waste of money.  I fail to see how other hospitals are going to cope with all of Ealing's patients, and people who need immediate treatment will probably die before being transported to other hospitals, one way of getting rid of a lot elderly patients maybe.  A case for suing perhaps?

Ruth Goldsborough ● 5022d

Could this be a case of 'physician heal thyself' with 'Mr. Doctor.'? Ealing suffers from being something of a miserable building but the staff there are uniformly excellent. Even if they weren't the idea that you would close down any major facility because it was failing to meet some arbitary standards is raving. What will Mr. Doctor suggest next? Scrapping the tube because sometimes the trains are late?

Katherine Kieslowski ● 5022d

Ever thought of raising the standards rather than closing it?And why in your exalted opinion is the 'place' any more 'appallling than any other hospital?

Chris Veasey ● 5022d

Mr Doctor - I think you are in a huge minority here.If Ealing Hospital closes just where exactly locally will the 30,000 seriuosly ill local people who are admitted to Ealing Hospital every year be treated? In local GP surgeries? In their front rooms? In, for example, West Ealing there are no Government spatial plans (2012-2026) to build any new healthcare facilities.If Ealing Hospital goes, then the hospice and St Berhards Hospital on the same site will also go as they depend on Ealing Hospital's services.Over 250 people attended a public meeting on Ealing Hospital closure last night in Hanwell. Many local GPs and Ealing Hospital doctors spoke out against the closure. It's clear that the vast majority of Ealing GPs, who will collectively run the local NHS service come April 2013, are against the closure. All Ealing MPs appear to be opposing the closure as are 68 of the 69 Ealing Councillors.My own take on this is if we can print £375 billion of new money to bail out the banks, then we can print £20 billion/£40 billion to bail out our national healthcare service. It is a political choice. It's a choice about priorities. Cancelling HS2 would free up money for the national healthcare service also.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5022d

Good. Appalling place. Appalling standards.Close It!

Jon F. Doctor ● 5023d

Arthur,Actually central government has allocated extra money to the tune of over £250 Millions to the Health service, according to yesterday news.The main reason why Ealing and other hospitals in London are in debt is because grants from central government to health authorities are allocated according to the number of residents registered with GPs – in Ealing this around 320,000. However, it is estimated that in Ealing there is a shortfall to the grant of at least 50,000 people – if not more.Considering that only in Southall it is estimated that 20% of the population are illegal immigrants who, for obvious reasons, do not register with a GP. Add to these illegal immigrants who live in other parts of the borough and those who go to A&E because they may get ill whilst on holiday or visiting relatives. No wonder our health system is so stretched. Perhaps we should have a residents’ campaign for extended GPs surgeries’ hours and week-end opening as well as more GPs surgeries. As far as Ealing Hospital is concerned my last admission there is an experience I would not wish to anyone. Although the medical care, when eventually it happened, was good the ‘patient’ care was out of a horror movie. I did share my personal experience in a letter of complaints to the Chief Executive and I was subsequently invited to have a chat about it with the Senior Nurse of the ward. The specialised ENT’s A&E at Charing Cross in Hammersmith is simply wonderful: having being seen and admitted to the ward within 1 hour. Their general wards are not fantastic but the personal care is. Also their day surgery ward is top class in terms of efficiency, clinical and personal care - nothing at all like Ealing’s.I think that the present debate should be whether we want quality or quantity of care.Personally, if there was something seriously wrong with me, I prefer to travel out of Ealing or, if the need arises even out of London, and being seen by someone who is an expert in his/her field so that can get right first time whatever is wrong with me with the aid of the latest ‘state of the art’ equipment and surrounded by staff that is knowledgeable and can cater for that specific needs. In this way there is no fear of a wrong diagnosis, no need of readmission or ‘corrective’ intervention.  It will also save lives as well as money in the long term. I think that a smaller, general hospital in Ealing is not a bad idea if money that it is saved goes to set up specialist hospitals that will cater for more serious illnesses. As for the A&E if resources go to expand facilities at whichever hospital so that one does not have to wait the normal three to four hours, if one is lucky, that it takes at the moment in Ealing, then I don’t see a problem with this. Even if it takes up to one hour travel to reach this hospital, one is still being seeing in less time than it takes at the moment in Ealing. However, this is my personal view and everybody else is entitled to his/her own opinion.

Rosa Popham ● 5023d

Eric,I am glad to see all three main parties questioning the changes to local healthcare provision. I couldn't quite read Cllr David Millican's placard in the photo on the newsletter.Was it "Gov cuts OK but not in my Backyard?".

Arthur Breens ● 5023d

What makes the future of Ealing Hospital so threatened by closing its A&E is that an unusually high percentage of all Ealing Hospital admissons are into A&E (47%). So take away A&E and you take away a very large portion of Ealing Hospital's reason for existing.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5025d

The closures have made the Evening Standard today. Julian Bell is leading the fight back. It's time for local Toriess to support the residents with more conviction as well. Among other things the article says that there are more A&E departments per head than elsewhere in the country. But too many people go to A&Es here because of difficulties seeing their GPs. Surprise surprise.Also it says there is a dire shortage of surgeons and midwives. The recommendations include "More care should be delivered closer to home".Oh yes. Where will the staff come from? And will you ever see the same person. How often does Ealing Social Services send round the same staff to a patient? And not just in Ealing.

George Knox ● 5025d

Dr Spencer and Mr Barton haven't come back so they clearly understand the conflict. Best not to comment eh?

Arthur Breens ● 5025d

George Hello,Your posts are starting to worry me. We have just had the plans passed to greatly INCREASE the population of Ealing along tight radial corridors. This is called the Local Development Framework and is binding for 15 years. Conversely "Shaping a Healthier Future for North West London" wishes to REDUCE the healthcare facilities along these same corridors. Would the leads like to comments please, Dr Spencer for North West London NHS and Mr S. Barton for London Borough of Ealing.

Arthur Breens ● 5027d

http://www.ic.nhs.uk/news-and-events/news/more-than-half-of-aande-attendances-stay-for-longer-than-two-hours-say-new-figures-from-the-nhs-information-centre The percentage of unplanned attendances where a patient spent longer than two hours rose from 50.6 per cent (7.6 million) in 2009/10 to 53.7 per cent (8.5 million) in 2010/11.  The percentage of unplanned attendances where a patient spent longer than four hours rose from 4.0 per cent (600,000) in 2009/10 to 5.6 per cent (900,000) in 2010/11. Note that the rise in the number of attendances where the patient spent more than four hours came ahead of the introduction of A&E Clinical Quality Indicators in April 2011. Following this, the four hour target has been replaced by eight indicators - one of which reflects the total time spent within A&E. The report also shows that in 2010/11:  There were a total of 16.2 million attendances at A&E departments in England (including planned attendances) recorded in HES compared with 15.6 million in 2009/10.Admittedly there are other stats in this report, but how much longer will the attendance delay be with a reduced number of A&E departments.I note that ambulances have a target to get to you within 8 minutes. The target is 75% success and they have only recently achieved this figure. Virtually everyone is reached within 19 minutes.I have not been able to find stats showing how long it takes to get to hospitals.

George Knox ● 5027d

It's not West Mid where I have heard bad reports.

George Knox ● 5029d

Apologies, I'm not sure I mean W Middx, I mean the one by Asda in Park Royal. Is that C or W Middx?

Milena Vincic ● 5030d

The staff on 10 South are exceptional. I have dealt with them for 5 years now and I cannot fault them. I have had cause to attend A and E several times over the years and although the wait was long, the care received once seen has been thorough and very good. In my experience there are much worse hospitals. The ward my grandmother was in at Hammersmith Hospital was dire, or so we thought until we encountered Charing Cross. We took it in shifts so that one of us was with her during the day and dreaded what we would find every morning. Care for the elderly is a disgrace in general. What do you expect she's 91? Precisely because she is 91 I expect her to be treated with respect. West Middlesex has, in my experience by far the worst A & E department in the area. The NHS has its problems but Ealing is by no means the worst of them and I would definitely rather be with it than without it. Fix the problems don't shut it down, we need it.

Milena Vincic ● 5030d

From the West Mid website"West Middlesex’s Accident and Emergency Department (A&E) has been experiencing record levels of attendances recently, which has put the hospital under increased pressure. We would ask that you please only visit A&E if you have a genuine emergencyAccident & Emergency (A&E), The A&E Department at West Middlesex provides high quality care to over 100, 000 patients a year." A couple of my mates have had bad experiences at W.Mid A&EI have had good and bad experiences at Ealing. The management is where the problem really lies.But some of the postings here more or less have already closed the place down. That is the wrong approach.Making comments about A&E being like little India do not help. Time to use ones' brains. It is little India. They are people who need help. And indeed if there were far fewer attendees from Southall then the case for closure would be far stronger. So as your last gasp takes place in the ambulance stuck in a queue behind a long stream of other ambulances all trying to get to the same destination remember that a fight to keep more hospitals in West London would have been the more positive approach.

George Knox ● 5030d

Points taken Eric, and I have to say my (extensive secondhand) experience is that A&E/ Resuss staff and even the Recovery Ward (1 South) staff are generally not bad, and ITU staff pretty excellent (as they have to be). It's some of the other (non emergency) wards where the worst problems lie.But however bad Ealing may be overall none of that is any justification for closure - just for drastic and sustained remedial action.

Chris Veasey ● 5030d

My Nottinghamshire forebears (father's side) didn't forebear from speaking their minds either - and in some cases more than speaking I gather.

Chris Veasey ● 5030d

There's some ward staff whose jaws I'd have loved to break on behalf of their luckless patients.

Chris Veasey ● 5030d

Yorkshire Man - explains everything, say no more.Have an Uncle from Yorkshire. Terrifies me but love the way he says it as he sees it.Best....

Bud Richards ● 5030d

I try and refrain from sticking my oar in on here whenever I can - life just too short and too crowded -  but just occasionally allow myself to be provoked by some particular topic/ comment/ lack of - as in this case - and I'm afraid I'm rarely if ever at my most diplomatic when provoked.I also wouldn't want to risk forfeiting my Northern and particularly Yorkshire citizenship by being caught being too polite too consistently.

Chris Veasey ● 5030d

An ambulance is a pleasanter place to die though.

Penny Crocker ● 5030d

Chris, for the record, I don't think anything negative of you. I've enjoyed reading a lot of your posts on here and look forward to continuing to do so.However, I stand by my comment that the paragraph I highlighted was uncalled for. You disagree. Let's draw a line.....But, as a (hopefully) final word, there are better ways in which you could've stoked the passions on this one.

Bud Richards ● 5030d

An interesting set of opinions.However bad Ealing A&E is (and I've had a variety of good and bad experiences there) most of us will not have had much experience of other A&Es in London or outside London. Maybe Ealing is on a par with many London A&E departments.I've seen my fair share of mentally ill, drunk, drugged and violent patients at Ealing A&E. However one can't hold that against the staff or management of the A&E service.Ealing A&E may not be perfect but it is our local A&E and if we lose it I suspect more people will die in ambulances.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5030d

I agree Chris. Some truly dreadful behaviour on the wards - almost unbelievable in its awfulness. Agree not just Ealing but Ealing is consistently jaw breakingly appalling. Yes, Holby/Casualty/Doctors really make me laugh in an ironic way of course. These nurses and doctors are veritable saints, caring for their patients, sorting out their home-lives, actually curing people rather than killing them. Nurses consider themselves and are often over-qualified to shovel sh*t. Sadly they don't seem to know what they are paid to do anymore. They aren't all angels......far from it. The junior doctors have similar attitude problem.

Penny Crocker ● 5030d

Well whatever you may think of me - and be assured I couldn't give a toss about that - it was only when I said that that the topic was saved from sinking without trace. So yes it was very much called for.

Chris Veasey ● 5030d

The problem is fundamentally management failure, both in ensuring that the job is done properly and in choking off complaints and covering up staff failure to do the job properly rather than making them mend their ways and replacing them if they don't.It's not just A&E - far from it, some of the worst staff behaviour towards patients I've seen anywhere was on some of the wards in Ealing hosp - the better staff there were fully aware of the problem but covered up for their recalcitrant colleagues. And I have to say that the ones with the worst attitudes were all from one particular continent - though others therefrom were good or even excellent.The situation is even worse at night and weekends due to the almost universal use of 'anything goes' agency staff, who tend to hang around the ward desk loudly chatting and laughing to each other with radio music on, rather than attending to patients - at least in the wards I have in mind. And of course (othefr than on A&E) doctors are as rare as hens' teeth at night and weekends, while managemebnt are of course non-existent.I would just love the chance to make or write a few episodes of those silly TV hospital dramsoaps such as Casualty and Holby, based on what really goes on at the likes of Ealing.But it's not just Ealing hosp, I've heard some similar tales from Charing X wards, and my late mother in law suffered while in the spanking new Farnborough PFI hosp in faraway outer SE London.As for redevelopment of Ealing hosp site, given the potentially attractive canalside and riverside location it would inevitably be primarily unaffordable housing with a proportion of so-called affordable as a condition of planning consent.

Chris Veasey ● 5030d

Chris,"Yet it seems nearly all on this forum are interested only in wittering on endlessly about swanky and (for most) unaffordable restaurants, pussy poo, use of English (ok I plead guilty re that one), etc etc ad nauseitum. Seems some at least on the Acton forum are a little more intelligent and thoughtful"As emotive you may be about this topic, the above is uncalled for - pompous and arse spring to mind. Not sure why.

Bud Richards ● 5030d

I am not exaggerating - believe me. My father was treated appallingly there over 14 years ago and died far too eaqrly as a result. My mother has been admitted there scores times and there have been some very serious lapses in treatment...too many to discuss. The design of the hospital is dreadful. No-one person or persons could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Staff are almost all rude, disenchanted, unhelpful, lazy and uncaring. This includes myriad dealings with receptionists, doctors and nurses.  Sadly I've seen the inside of this disgrace over 150 times in the last 15 years and I stand by my comments. Ealing is an abomination and always was. The building itself is hideous and mostly the staff are too. I have seen some very unusual people trying their very best there to help....in the breast cancer unit and in St Bernard's alcohol and drug units but they are swamped by unprofessional and unacceptable hoards of their colleagues.

Penny Crocker ● 5030d

Hello Chris,My mother, as a fully qualified nurse, worked at Southall General (this is what they all called it) for 4-5 years and said that it was THE worst hospital that she'd ever worked at. She did her training at the Royal Marsden which was riddled with cockroaches and still she insisted Ealing was worse. From a hygiene and staffing aspect in particular.I don't know why it's so poor today and what could be done to improve it, but I do agree with your spirit in getting someone in to get the place working properly. That person must exist.My experiences of using Ealing A&E have been far from pleasant. I found the A&E experience awful at best. Being intimidated by drunks and gangs alike. Security guards wholly uninterested in bringing the place into any order. I was not going to mention this, but think it's important to, where on one occassion, in a packed A&E waiting room, I was the only English person there and could not hear a word of English spoken. Read into that what you wish. I'll let the PC crowd interpret as they choose, but for the record, I'm not racist.It's a sorry place - that's for sure. If they do rip it down, I fear what would replace it. Surely affordable housing which is code for another hideous estate.

Bud Richards ● 5030d

Point taken re Ealing hosp from extensive personal experience (thankfully mostly secondhand), but don't exaggerate, it's not by any means all bad or always bad.And the solution is not to knock it down but to knock it into shape, getting rid of the rotten apples staffwise and replacing them with good ones.

Chris Veasey ● 5030d

I will NOT be sorry to see Ealing close. It should have been pulled down years ago. The place barely functions and has never been adequate. I assume Hillingdon stays open. Southall residents will go there presumably as it's nearer than Chelsea and Westminster or West Mid.

Penny Crocker ● 5030d

Did they really say that A&E departments would not expand to meet the new demand. Surely they can't be saying that? I wonder how many readers have been in an A&E department.It can be an appalling experience. And when the drunks who have been in a serious fight come in, then I have seen them get priority in the queues.

George Knox ● 5030d

Cuts Plan Overview:1. Close Ealing Hospital A&E.2. Secret McKinsey management consultants report to NHS says that Ealing Hospital will be 'site closed' by 2015.3. 4 out of the 8 A&E departmnts in NW London NHS Hospitals will close.4. The 30,000 seriously ill patients who annually arrive at Ealing Hospital will have to travel much further to other A&E departments which themselves will not be expanded.ie very long waiting times travelling to and in remote A&E departments.5. 5,600 job losses throughout North West London NHS by 20156. The Government approved Local Plan for Ealing specifies 25,000 new residents in 12,407 new homes in Ealing by 2026. In West Ealing centre alone in two rebuuilt housing estates we will have 1,400 new residents by 2018. 4,200 new homes housing 8,000+ new residents will arrive in Southall by 2025. High birth rates along with new residents in new homes will raise Ealing's population from 322,000 in 2011 to 349,000 in 2026.Just the time to close down the town's hospital in Southall then...(Healthcare data courtesy of Dr John Lister author of 'North West London NHS: Under The Knife' report, June 2012.If we can bail out the banks for £100s billions, surely we can bail out the NHS for £10s billions? We are the 7th richest country in the world after all.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5030d

Thanks for alerting to this meeting - I went along for as long as I could before going home for some pre-nightwork rest.If even some of what was apparently authoritatively said at the meeting re this proposed cuts program is true, then we should all be very afraid, and gearing ourselves up for a life-and-death fight to stop it.Yet it seems nearly all on this forum are interested only in wittering on endlessly about swanky and (for most) unaffordable restaurants, pussy poo, use of English (ok I plead guilty re that one), etc etc ad nauseitum. Seems some at least on the Acton forum are a little more intelligent and thoughtful.If these atrocious hospital services cuts (sorry 'rationalisation and service improvement!!!) go through, then brown trousers will be an even more promising line for investment than private healthcare company shares.Think on, folks.

Chris Veasey ● 5031d