Forum Topic

Is it ok to imply the Irish are Thick

I went to a council meeting last night. I won't make that mistake again. If you have ever seen Prime Ministers Questions and didn't like it because of all the shouting and general childish behaviour, then you will hate this. I was expecting to hear a debate on compensating residents because of the poor service we now get from the rubbish collection company, but that never happened. There was a vote at the start of the meeting to change the agenda, then another vote after half eight and for some reason the debate never happened. I have no idea why. Anyways there was a debate where the Labour councillors who spoke praised themselves and the Conservative Councillors who spoke criticised them. Again, not sure what it was all about. I think Labour were saying this is how well we have done so far and the Conservatives said this is how bad you are. At one point in the debate, one of the Conservative Councillors spoke only to be mocked by one of the Labour ones who thought he would shout abuse at him in a mock Irish accent. The implication was that the Conservative Councillor didn't have a clue what he was talking about because he was Irish. Most of the Labour Councillors, not all, thought this was hilarious. I didn't. It may be that the Conservative Councillor is a bit thick, but to link this to his being Irish is not on. In this day and age, stereotying people like this is not on. For that reason, I won't be attending council meetings again.

Mark Stevens ● 5046d52 Comments

Rer  Try living on quoted facts instead of bigotry.      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx            well I never, we have here another stalker. Proven by the fact this post is the only one on this thread made by the person and bears no reference to or adds anything to the subject of the thread but is patently made just  for personal abuse. Sad really that  such persons exist obviously in a frame of mind which raises  questions and doubts as to where they are coming from and why.

Tony Price ● 5012d

"So  from that I would assume a person needs to be here representing the 4th generation to qualify for being English?"I wonder when his ancestors came here from Wales? He could be a Terylene Taffy for all we know.(getting the hang of genetic labelling now).

Tony Wood ● 5013d

when on the AOL Message boardsYou would believe anything if it suited your agenda. Try living on quoted facts instead of bigotry.

George Knox ● 5013d

Re  When does one become English          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        when on the AOL Message boards I remember someone saying there is some " law " which enables persons in this country from overseas to be deported if there are 3 generations or less of their " family " having come here. I don't suppose there is a cat in hell's chance of it ever being implimented what with the Human Rights situation, assuming the 3 generations rule is correct anyway. So  from that I would assume a person needs to be here representing the 4th generation to qualify for being English?

Tony Price ● 5013d

'2nd or 3rd generation Irish'.Surely it's 2nd or 3rd generation removed?I take it this means that someone's father and grandfather can be born in England and still consider themselves Irish.How does that work?It seems like a strange description.When does one become English,or any other nationality if that is the case?

Keith Iddon ● 5013d

A Plastic Paddy is 2nd or 3rd generation Irish.As bad as it is when someone who is not Irish implies Irish are thick ,its worse when a Plastic Paddy does it because he or she is saying Irish are thick including their ancestors

Jimmy Carroll ● 5013d

It seems a bit harsh,but Ta!

Tony Wood ● 5013d

A 'Plastic Paddy' is someone with an Irish heritage who was born in England but claims to be Irish.It opens them up to benevolent 'ridicule' from both sides. Half the Rep.of Ireland football team qualify.;-)

Keith Iddon ● 5013d

What is a Plastic Paddy,I've never come across that expression before?

Tony Wood ● 5013d

Very interesting that Mark/Colm /Stevens/Costello may be one of the same and has broken the Code of Conduct of this forum.Please see entry "Did Ealing Council pay for work that wasn't done?"

Arthur Breens ● 5013d

Of course Cllr Dennehy is not offended by Cllr Wall's piss taking of Cllr Costello's accent he is like Cllr Wall just another plastic Paddy

Jimmy Carroll ● 5014d

I see in the papers this week that Yoko Ono claimed that John Lennon considered himself to be Irish. I had almost forgooten about Ray Walls recent claim also to be Irish as a defence for his insulting the irish at a recent council meeting. I wonder If john lennon ever mocked his "own" people in the way Cllr wall did with his heavy mock Irish accent. I doubt it. Would his fellow band members have been as forgiving as cllr walls colleagues in the Labour party in Ealing have been to him.

Mark Stevens ● 5028d

Mark,The Labour group members must follow their leaders (dare them to rebel!) and leaders are just as arrogant as Cllr Wall. They are in ‘power’ and to them it means that they can do and say what they want. Talking of arrogance, just to refresh your memory, in the previous Labour administration Cllr Wall, as transport portfolio holder, was the person that wanted to give us the tram at all costs.

Rosa Popham ● 5034d

Ten days ago Cllr Wall said my suggestion that his behaviour at a public meeting was disrespectful to the Irish community was simply preposterous. He then apologised if I inadvertantly got the impression that his behaviour was disrespectful. His behaviour was disrespectful. I would be surprised if I was the only person who believes that. His apology is only slightly less insulting than the original behaviour. He is lucky that his leader and group are as understanding as they are. He must be very important to them.

Mark Stevens ● 5035d

But doesn't this also apply to most of those that have gone through the education system, during the 13 years of Labour government, thanks to the changes introduced to the English curriculum on how kids should be taught (or rather not) on state schools? How many kids/young adults have left school without knowing how to write, spell and read properly? So why single out one particular group?

Rosa Popham ● 5036d

Wally,I wonder if they are so thick that they do not know to use higher case letters where appropriate and how to punctuate a sentence?

Keith Iddon ● 5038d

i wouldnt have called it an implication,i would have called it a fact of life, take a walk around the pubs of acton ie (the sheepwalk tavern) and you will see for yourselves how thick the irish can be

Walter Coady ● 5038d

I plan to be at the next Council chamber meeting and I hope Cllr Reen, the Conservatives and Labour will support my motion regarding Southall. Having raised the issue to get it noticed I hope you support my ongoing efforts to get the exploited helped and illegal doers punished.As a person of Irish decent "Dennehy" I am not offended by Cllr Wall's accent, perhaps jealous of his ability to pull it off..In fact I am wondering which accent to affect at the next meeting, Irish, Kiwi, Indian or just plain speaking!Where is however the outrage of "racism" by Labour and The Ealing Gazette as to Cllr Wall's comments?I wish you well Cllr Reen in your leadership bid, God knows the Conservatives need it!

Cllr Benjamin Dennehy ● 5041d

Cllr Dennehy,Thanks for the post.  Cllr Dennehy - You didn't "air" Southalls problems - if you had we would be discussing Southalls problems - I'm all for airing Southalls problems and the seeming inability of Southalls Labour Cllrs to get a grip of them; but stereotypically labelling a whole community is not 'politically correct' - it is lazy and inarticulate.  Which brings me to Cllr Walls stereotypical mockery of the Irish Cllr Colm Costello's accent - and his rather pathetically tepid excuse for an apology - another who is lazy and inarticulate.The lack of genuine response and that of the Labour Group as whole makes a mockery of the anger they expressed to Cllr Dennehy - politically incorrect or not.  I asked in an earlier post for Cllr Wall to issue a full apology - maybe this will prompt one - Maybe Cllr Dennehy will actually be in the Council Chamber to hear it.Mark Reen

Mark Reen ● 5041d

BD please note.

George Knox ● 5041d

Some feel that there is not no such thing as 'free speech' for fear of being labelled racist or something.This surely should also apply to policitians and councillors, why should they get away with uttering remarks aimed at insulting or belitteling another person?Perhaps they should put the brain in gear before opening their mouth?

Jean F Fernandez ● 5041d

Sorry should say 'Politicians have evoked the climate we live in' and 'Let them wear the same yolk as the rest of us'.

Keith Iddon ● 5041d

Fair comment to a point but an ordinary member of the public might be arrested by the para military social workers who pass themselves off as police(wo)men nowadays for saying what he did in a public place.Is it ok to imply that any Jew is 'careful with money' or that any muslim is a terrorist or that any travellers are thieves and leave debris everywhere they stay? Politicians have evoked the climate they live in and the police seemingly do what they want in relation to this type of issue, imo.Let the politicians wear the same yoke.

Keith Iddon ● 5041d

I would love to join the band wagon and demand Cllr Wall be expelled for his offensive behaviour. I can't claim Indian descent as he claims Irish descent, though my wife is actually West Indian, but that still makes me a racist apparently for discussing Southall's problems - go figure! I think Cllr Wall let the moment slip away with him. I hope the Labour Party has more sense and back bone than the Conservatives in Ealing and stand by him rather than hang him out to dry over ludicrous political correctness.

Cllr Benjamin Dennehy ● 5041d

MarkFor various reasons I don’t wish to engage in this further.I was not a witness. It should not have happened. I get annoyed or offended when someone is in some way marginalised or insulted when there is an ethnic connotation. So far the issue has not been managed very well. The Chamber meetings which I seen have been sloppily managed.  It’s occupants need to learn that the public want much higher standards and for them to deliver accordingly. That’s it in a nutshell.If a third party independent person does not wish to complain, then, as in your case, it’s up to them. I don’t believe RW has posted on the websites and I have never seen any blog written by him. More’s the pity that apart from Mahfouz so few Socialists engage with the public on the internet.

George Knox ● 5043d

GeorgeI thought i was ready to move on from this but after reading the other posts, it is clear that there is more to this than I knew about. It looks like the Labour group in council made a huge deal about comments made by a former Conservative Cllr a few months ago, going so far as to dedicate a council meeting to lambast him for comments he made that were offensive to the Indian community in Southall. Proper order too. Before last tuesday evening I would have believed that they were concerned about any cllr making comments that might offend one community or another. After Tuesday night, it looks like they aren't offended if one of their own makes omments that are offensive to a community in the borough. There are differences in both cases as Cllr Dennehys comments were more direct. Cllr Walls behaviour to my mind was very insulting to a community too, and his group seem totally unconcerned about whether or not he offended the Irish community or not. Some of them thought it quiet funny. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt as I don't know him, but my doubts about this won't go away. What i saw was disparaging to Irish people. Cllr Wall says his parents were Irish and he feels Irish. that's fair, but it makes it all the harder to believe he would not know how insulting his behaviour would be construed as, to use his own word. Cllr Costello tells us Cllr Wall acted out of anger. That's when we say what we really mean. I think it is time for the leader of the council to tell us what he thinks and why he felt so strongly about Cllr Dennehys behaviour and not Cllr Walls. Are there any other Irish Labour cllrs, first generation or second generation who might be willing to tell us what they think. Were they offended. I've read Cllr Costellos blog on this. does Cllr Wall have a blog and if so can someone provide a link as I couldn't find anything

Mark Stevens ● 5044d

No George there is only one Irishman which is Mr.Costello the other one Mr.Wall is a plastic Paddy

Jimmy Carroll ● 5044d

So now we know a bit more about both sides of the story (see CC’s blog). There are two Irishmen who lock horns and who are attracting labels of 1) thick and 2) stupid and generally the whole thing is a pigs ear. That could happen to anyone. Oh dear. Sort it out locally. What we want is a refuse contract which works and we pay you lot to achieve that.On the broader point, when you think of the make up of Councillors then some may feel that an extra degree of decorum is needed  to avoid racist accusations. What I do feel is that when I have seen a debate, there is far too much waffling and posturing rather than getting on with the business. I could name names but will not. But it happens on both sides. The standards of engagement and poor presentation skills on the part of several could very well do with improvement which perhaps is why some have said the chamber is characterised by childishness. Ealing by no stretch is the House of Commons but leaving aside PMQs some of our poorer Councillor speakers could and should watch the better speakers in the House and learn from them. The mayor probably should take a much stiffer line in the future when he chairs so as to try and gain more respect from the people who vote them in.

George Knox ● 5044d

Now that we know who the two councillors are why cant Mr.Wall give a proper apology to Mr. Costello otherwise this is going to drag on and on and Mr. Wall is going to be the loser

Jimmy Carroll ● 5044d

MarkThanks for raising this in the way you have. I am the Cllr who was mocked in the way you described. I don't mind if a friend does this as friends should be able to take the mikey out of one another. When someone mocks you in this way at a public meeting out of anger, it is not designed as a joke, it is designed as an insult. Cllr Wall and I are not sworn enemies, but neither are we friends. Cllr wall was not in a jokey mood, he was angry. His attempt at an apology made matters worse. He has tried to blame the whole thing on me, and suggest Mark misinterpreted his mocking my accent. When you speak to an Irish person in that way out of anger, it usually means one thing only and Mark, you picked up on that straightaway. I stayed out of this as I was happy for the leader of the council to deal with this. He hasn't dealt with it in a staisfactory way. I have written in more detail about this on my blog, http://wwwcolmcostello.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/am-i-thick-because-im-irish.html

Colm Costello ● 5044d

re Ask Marie if it's OKShe'd only complain if the Irish person in question had been on holiday to a sunny destination and a shop selling mops.I've heard the Irish look forward to summer though, it's their favourite day of the year!Mind you the way its going over here....

Amy Brookes ● 5044d

I wouldn't if I were you, she got upset with me last time and threw her toys out of the pram!

F Stone ● 5044d

Ask Marie if it's OK. She seems to have an opinion on everyone else.

Penny Crocker ● 5044d

Tony,Cllr Dennehy really did inflict injury on Southall residents of Indian extraction because he said they were endemic criminals who harbour gamblers, druggies and prostitutes and were a constant drain on the public purse. The racism within that insult is pretty self-evident. What is interesting is that Cllr Dennehy says his leader and whip, Cllrs Millican and Popham, didn’t see anything wrong with what he said and actually gave it their approval, AND promised him their support. They only suspended him when forced to do so by Boris Johnson’s election team at which point they went back on their word, failed to stand by him and were not honest about their prior approval of what he had written.Cllr Dennehy is obviously smarting from being deserted however he is accusing Cllr Millican of cowardice and weak leadership. He calls him a spineless jellyfish!It makes interesting reading. See here http://benjamindennehy.com/2012/05/12/cllr-dennehy-the-fall-guy-for-weak-and-indecisive-conservative-leader/

David Coomber ● 5044d

I think this was very unnecessary and unprofessional by the labour councillor.  I am shocked and surprised, this sort of behaviour is allowed to carry on in such multi cutural city.

Dilip Kandaiah ● 5044d

It's not good enough. The Conservative group withdrew the whip from Benjamin Dennehy who apologised but this was not considered enough.The Labour group should follow this lead, but I bet they don't.

Nigel Brooks ● 5044d

I see that the cllr involved has apologised on Ealing today to me in case I construed what he said as disrespectful to his own community. He himself is Irish as his parents are from Ireland. I'm not fully convinced, but as I don't know the Cllr I should give him the benefit of the doubt, and there is doubt here. What he did was use as strong an Irish accent as possible, which I'd be surprised if anyone in Ireland talks like that. He sounded like a comedian from the 1970's taking the mickey out of Irish people. He also said in his apology that it was in response to a false accusation that the Irish Cllr had made against him.

Mark Stevens ● 5045d

My jaw is dropping that there has been neither a denial nor an apology from the Labour Party about this. If the account is untrue that should have been made plain immediately. If it is true then the whip should be withdrawn from the offending Councillor immediately.

Andy Jones ● 5045d

Re  How would this be looked at if it was another ethnic minority?               xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I think we all know the answer to that. You are the wrong colour, to get justice or open sympathy.

Tony Price ● 5045d

Gerard,I have to tell you that I was taken aback myself - as a colleague of Cllr Costello I did not find it funny at all; I have to let you know that as the Conservative-side councillor responsible for such matters I have written to the Labour group asking for an apology for Cllr Costello and not asking for a repeat.I would also say to residents who come to council that the council debate process does provide a good forum for scrutiny and ensure all views are heard - although I can appreciate it can sound a little adversarial.  You may have to listen hard but there are good points made in the chamber!We live is borough renowned for its tolerance I would hope that this does not change that.  I am sure that the Labour group will take action.

Mark Reen ● 5045d

As an Irish person I find this offensive. I am quite surprised at this behaviour from a local councillor. It is not just that the councillor mocked the Irish but that the rest of the councillors found it funny. I wonder what is the opinion of the national executive committee? Is this behaviour ok? How would this be looked at if it was another ethnic minority?

Gerard O'Sullivan ● 5045d

This is very disappointing to hear.I remember earlier in the year when Ken said that the Tories were riddled with Homosexuals that was a huge surprise because he did an awful lot for the Gay community,but it sounded like he had the same prejudices that he criticised others for.Now we have a Labour Cllr who has probably courted the Irish vote as the Labour party do and now it looks like he hasn't got a very good opinion of us at all.Do we know the Cllrs involved yet and what action the leader  of the council has taken yet

Jimmy Carroll ● 5045d

Paddy goes to a building site hut and asks the English foreman for a job.The foreman says 'Paddy. have you worked on a building site before''Oh yes' says Paddy 'I have worked on many a site''So' says the foreman'Can you tell me the difference between a joist and a girder''Yes' replies Paddy 'Joyce wrote Ulysses and Goethe wrote Faust'

Keith Iddon ● 5046d

Re  if the Leader of the council does anything.           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      probably " ask for " a bigger bonus.

Tony Price ● 5046d

Mark, the Councillor is most unlikely to complain, because then the other side will do the same when an opposition Councillor breaks the code. That is how it seems to work. It’s all rather pathetic but it needs a third party who cannot be attacked to lodge a complaint.It’s up to you what you do. But glad you brought it to our notice.The Leader certainly won’t do anything. The Labour party are on the back foot as regards the new refuse contract and they obviously can’t bear to allow any more facts to be published or their reputation to be lowered anymore. 

George Knox ● 5046d

Keith Thanks for the background into that. very interesting. KatherineThey weren't all bad. There were some good speaches on both sides including the leader of the council, who happened to be sitting directly in front of the Cllr who mocked the Irish Cllr. I wouldn't want to tar them all with the childrish behaviour brush. GeorgeI won't be contacting the Chief executive. I will leave that to the Irish Cllr who was mocked in the way he was or even the leader of the council who was sitting as close to this guy was I am to my computer now. BudGood point. If anyone had mocked indians, French, Germans, somalians or any other nationality because of the way they speak, it would be a very different story. That's what put me off the meeting, not so much the behaviour of the few cllrs who thought they were back in kindegarden Lets see if the Leader of the council does anything.

Mark Stevens ● 5046d

The Irish are stigmatised as thick because in part,when Ireland was colonised it was mostly dirt poor rural communities with little or no education, and in the 18th century Catholic schools were banned and illegal but broadly accepted 'hedgerow schools' were set up in barns and farm outbuildings on a purely unofficial level.Many nations have the equivalent state of affairs.The Dutch have the Belgians,the Americans the Poles and the mainland Aussies have Tasmanians.It sounds tome like this berk of a councillor and his laughing cronies should be sent to Biddy Mulligans in Kilburn or The Crown in Cricklewodd and we would see if they found it so funny there.

Keith Iddon ● 5046d

They sound like a load of unruly scholchildren (apologies to any well mannered schoolchildren!) if this is how they behave. How juvenille!Why on earth can they not get together and sort out any problems without resorting to name-calling?However I remember the old saying: 'Sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me' Mind you we are now in a PC age where one simply cannot utter insults without the possibility of consequences.This should be reported as suggested and action taken to ensure that councillors mind their Ps and Qs.The problem nowadays is that no-one wants to take the blame when things go wrong but they are more than happy to accept praise - and bonuses where offered for not doing their job properly!What a funny old world we live in.BTW the Irish had the advantage of a rather good education, (I went to school in Belfast) at least they had in my day, so where the term 'thick' originated from I do not know!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5046d

Being a politician the victim of the insults probably has the skin of a rhinoceros, and may also give as good a he gets.But it is not only the victim of racism but a reasonable minded bystander witness who can be offended or feel abused. Did you see the chair of the meeting seeking to control racist taunting in the Ealing Borough Chamber? Or did he have low standards to the point of remaining silent and so making him complicit in racist behaviour?The law places a legal duty to investigate a claim of racism – however spurious it is.If you feel so strongly that you will not engage with one of the main elements of democracy – IMO a very serious decision – then I dare you to write to the Chief Executive Martin Smith very briefly with a complaint so that he is forced to investigate.

George Knox ● 5046d

This is completely unacceptable and needs to be escalated IMMEDIATELY.Who was this person ?Look at it this way - if this person had used a mock Indian accent, there'd be pandemonium!!

Bud Richards ● 5046d

Peed off with Politics?It often isn't very constructive is it?  I think party politics has wrecked local government.

Philippa Bond ● 5046d

Mark, it sounds like your attendance at the Council meeting was incredibly valuable as it has thrown light on their appalling behaviour. What was the name of the Labour Councillor who mocked his opponent because of his nationality?

Katherine Kieslowski ● 5046d