Forum Topic

Eliminating beds in sheds

The government announced on Friday £1.8 million of funding to help councils tackle the problem of ‘beds in sheds’.Money will be allocated to seven councils in London where there is a particular problem with people trapped in unsanitary or cramped living conditions. Ealing is one of these London councils. Brent, Hillingdon, Hounslow, Newham, Redbridge and Southwark are the others. Peterborough and Slough are the only councils outside London to share some of this funding.

Ben Owen ● 5080d62 Comments

There are others but Southall has the most... get my drift !! Southall is a dump and will always remain that way regardless of any improvement  plans ...  a scruffy shanty town which is spreading to surrounding areas changing the face of our once pleasant neighborhoods ....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5054d

Re  surely he is doing something about the problems in Southall            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      if he is he is keeping it quiet and if he is not  or has not been doing something, there must be a reason?.

Tony Price ● 5054d

apparently, the deputy leader of the cllr is one Ranjeet Dheer and he is incharge of community safety. surely he is doing something about the problems in Southall

Mark Stevens ● 5054d

Can't people in Southall demand their Cllrs do something. Surely no one would accuse them of being racist if they just want to improve their own area. Are any of the Southall Cllrs in senior positions in the council and if they are surely they have an interest in their own area and in solving these problems

Mark Stevens ● 5055d

Re  What are the cllrs in this area doing about this        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Very good question, one a lot of people would like the answer to, but as far as  those in the specific area are concerned,  don't probe too much as you may be tagged  a racist, and that is the crime of the century. You must realise the country is being changed beyond all recognition.

Tony Price ● 5055d

is Southall where the largest number of beds in sheds are in the borough or are other areas as bad. What are the cllrs in this area doing about this

Mark Stevens ● 5055d

Re    or 50 from 52             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx well there's a jolly good loophole. Wait for a load of fast growing trees to suddenly be planted in Southall et al

Tony Price ● 5067d

Re  what constitutes evidence of "permanent" residence            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        off hand, sorry do not, but if there is a loophole you can bet your boots it will be found and by some crafty lawyers , who I am sure abound in that neck of the woods. Even an " Appeal " may well but the brake on the investigating team/ exercise.

Tony Price ● 5067d

Hang on - that applied to *everybody* that takes a two week holiday away from home!  :-)

Tony Colliver ● 5067d

"I wonder what constitutes evidence of "permanent" residence...?  Anybody know?"If it is the same standard imposed on some 'woodland cabins' and the like it is 48 weeks occupied out of 52, or 50 from 52 in the Forest of Dean I believe.

Nigel Brooks ● 5067d

>  ...l/lords' checking on legality of occupants...This is not a legal duty imposed on landlords.Employers, yes, but landlords, no.I wonder what constitutes evidence of "permanent" residence...?  Anybody know?

Tony Colliver ● 5067d

Re  Rather they were nabbed straight off.      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx exactly, if they remain in situ for the nabbing, and even if the  " raid " was at the 24 hr point in time, is there any reason why subsequent " raids " cannot take place , on the strength of the initial notice or legally is there only one permitted raid per notice. I would favour ongoing raids per establishment and face the music of that questioned illegality if it ever happened. A l/lord would very much show his hand if he challenged more than one raid per notice.

Tony Price ● 5068d

Re  Surely 100% of beds in sheds are illegal...?            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    one would like to think so but  the law apparently is a building can be erected in the rear garden if is does not take up more than a certain % of the garden, is not over a certain height and is not used for PERMANENT residence. From what one can gather, the majority of these shanty town constructions may well be within the law as far as construction is concerned  but the question then is  the purpose and de facto occupation. Any investigating body determined to wipe out these things should be able to do so,the question is whether the determination is there. I find it significant and worrying that , as far as one is aware, there has been no  criticism from the locals, including the local  Councillors  nor the Member of Parliament. The question is why not or is the answer too obvious and no-one wants to put their head above the parapet for the same reason the Police took no action re the grooming of young white girls for sex by non-white persons. This fear of racism must be faced down, beaten into the ground until it is well and truly dead, never to arise again. I wonder re the composition of the " team " and their genuine determination. There are many reasons  they could use, purpose, fulltime occupation, not fit for human habitation, safety of gas and electrical installations, the occupants themselves, the l/lords' checking on legality of occupants ( a few fines of £10,000 per illegal might have an effect ) tax returns, declarations and payment. There is a blot on our landscape which needs eradicating. And will this " investigation " be ongoing or a once only, dangers are obvious. Too many Nelsons may be onboard?.

Tony Price ● 5068d

"...60% found with 'bed in shed' of which 10%..."Flabbergasted...Surely 100% of beds in sheds are illegal...?

Tony Colliver ● 5068d

Tony,I don't know how long the notice is valid for - will ask and come back.See your point, but once alerted a game of cat & mouse starts and the whole thing gets more complicated. Rather they were nabbed straight off.

Charles Gallichan ● 5068d

Re  There are barriers, such as Council having to give 24 hours notice of visit if no warrant issued.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      Thanks Charles. The giving of notice is a stumbling block but does the " visit " have to be at the 24 hrs time, ie  could it not be later, say a week later as long as notice has been served. 24 hrs notice would mean NO visit  before the expiry of that time but could mean the  visit able to carried out be ANY time therafter. If a warning is given, we all know what is going to happen, but if  the visit is " long " delayed, any miscreants  may feel safe after a while, move back in and ready then to be caught.

Tony Price ● 5068d

Arthur,I can't give you timescales on individual cases, but the good news things are moving foreward at a pace.On Wednesday evening at our EC&PCG public meeting, we got an up-date and further confirmation on commitment and action was given at the Safer Ealing Partnership Board meeting on Thursday.In summary,Central Govt - where much of the blame must reside as national planning laws which designated gardens as 'brown sites' opened up the window for abuse - have allocated £280,000 to the Borough to fund tackling the problem. Ealing Council have allocated £250,000 from Borough funds.Staff are now being recruited to bolster the team.An audit of all Out Houses started in October and is being done across the Borough.700 properties visited to date, 60% found with 'bed in shed' of which 10% illegal.Action taken either by planning/ housing standards or building control as relevant.A UK Border Agency member has joined the council team and also a part-time intelligence officer. So we have people on the ground who can probe occupants ( arrests have already been made) as well as landlords.HM Revenue & Customs are now also on board - guess they have realised they could be onto a jackpot of undeclared income and benefit fraud. There are barriers, such as Council having to give 24 hours notice of visit if no warrant issued. Landlords found to have buildings which are 'legal' if they have been up for four years, but not complying with building regs can only be served with notice to put it right. If they then do, not much can be done - about the property that is. Occupants another matter.If a Landlord has multiple properties, each one has to be dealt with on a case by case basis.Getting Warrants is time consuming, officers waiting hours to be seen. This should speed up as magistrates start to get experience of the size and nature of problems.Currently Central Govt view is that existing Laws give Council plenty of powers to tackle the problem. Intention now is to see how the teams get on as momentum  builds up.If significant problems caused by existing Laws are found to be a barrier - the issue will be revisited with Central Govt. Who have now, it has to be said recognised the size of the problem - hence the money.From the Community's prospective, I have pointed out that we get a monthly performance report from the Police showing number of reported crimes, arrest rates etc and the 'Stop & Search' figures. So I am now looking for equivalent reporting on this issue. Council say they don't want more form filling - I say, 'How hard can it be?' and shouldn't you performance monitor the team as a matter of course?Finally, I would say that I do feel that things are now really starting to move forward and I will be interested to see how many Landlords start to declare themselves before they get 'a visit'. My hunch is that the investment of funds will turn a profit in a very short time.

Charles Gallichan ● 5068d

Re  would urge everyone to get it off to a flying start.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    yep, utterly disgusting itself and equally so the under reporting / keep under wraps attitude. The potential rising up and backlash against the effects of mass immigration frighten the authorities to hell. When the baloon goes up, be interesting to see whose side  " they " take. Why do you think shanty town in Ealing and elsewhere in London has been kept quiet by those who should in reality,have have loudly complained about it and taken well broadcast action against. Three Ealing M Ps and Boris should have voiced and led a campaign against, did they,have they?. And especially the incumbent in Southall. Ain't much support or hope from that source?

Tony Price ● 5073d

That would be the tragic case of poor Kriss Donald in 2004.

Keith Iddon ● 5073d

Re  If he had been white and the gang black,the race element would have been played down as it has been here.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Exactly, makes one wonder why anyone would want to play down the truth here and in so many other cases. And there was a case in Scotland I think where a gang of those of ethnic origin attacked, petroled,burnt and mutilated a white youth because he was white and said so, and it was hardly broadcast,leaving it to the BNP to bring it into the public's attention. There are too many trojans in our midst, pathetic sycophants of supposed Political CORRECTNESS, the biggest misnomer imagineable!. And their pursuit of a quiet life will eventually erupt in greater backlash,which will be accentuated if  economic conditions get really bad. The  " fires " may well start elsewhere in Europe but will catch on here.

Tony Price ● 5073d

Anyone who thinks there is no race element to these horrible crimes is deluded and will tolerate anything in pursuit of a quiet life.Heads are buried in the sand because the truth no longer bears any credence if it threatens the status quo of multi-cultutalism. Reverse the roles and there would have been pandemonium.Same with poor Stephen Lawrence but in reverse.If he had been white and the gang black,the race element would have been played down as it has been here.

Keith Iddon ● 5073d

Even the Asian perpetrators themselves apparently said their intent was racist------------------------------No they didn't. They accused the prosecution of being racist.

Jeremy Hanson ● 5074d

Charles,Well done. Thank you for that. We have some idea of the council  structures so we should get Hayes or Rutherford? I know I am irritating but questions have to be asked. What I want to know is how the process works from complaint to action with a timescale. Maybe Hayes or Rutherford could bring some recent case studies along as examples. When we were in primary school we were asked to write stories about the day in the life of a penny. Would H or R like to tell us about cases from the first phone call to solution.

Arthur Breens ● 5076d

Re  the joys of diversity !!!         xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  indeed so, they are many and varied, some well and truly apparent, some not so,until some tabloid reveals them such as the recent one re the percentage of public housing given to immigrants. There are those of course who object to these disclosures, trojans . I have a " contact " who specialises in the " joys of Diversity ".  As to " supporting them ", why do you think they come here, certainly ain't because they love us, as most don't want to integrate. Indeed,one variety don't like going into a indigenous person's home,certainly not eat.

Tony Price ● 5076d

Arthur,As you are well aware this problem has been around for some time and has only been getting worse. Indeed, whilst at one time it was mainly concentrated in one area, we are getting more and more evidence of a spread across the borough. With many despairing of the apparent inactivity to do anything about it.Well, the lines have been hot over the last few days and I am getting info on action already taken, by the Police, The Council and 'other agencies' including Border Control and HMRC.With lots more to come.I can now also confirm that a senior council officer will be at our meeting next Wednesday to up-date us. So I think it will be well worthwhile to come along - remember we do allow 'questions from the floor' at our meetings.

Charles Gallichan ● 5076d

> I would like to think it is, Naive.  (Sorry Tony.  :-) )> any place let out has to be registered with > the Local AuthorityFlat wrong I'm afraid.> certainly, gas safety cert issued every year.Correct!(Electrical safety certificates - whilst highly recommended - especially by naive letting agents - are not compulsory... yet...  but one day they no doubt will be...)

Tony Colliver ● 5076d

Re  will avoid every single possible responsibility  that they can.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  where race is concerned, ie fear of being tagged  racists. Classic recent example being the grooming of all white girls  by all Asians, of which the Police were made fully aware of years ago , were pleaded to by one of the victims but  declined to act. In so doing, proved themselves to be racist, ie anti white anti indig racist.  Even the Asian perpetrators themselves apparently said their intent was racist but  the Judge said not true, your  behaviour wasn't racist, so what with the Police and Judges against the indigenous people, what chance of justice do we have?.

Tony Price ● 5076d

Aahh the joys of diversity !!! This is what we get for opening our doors to every kind of miscreant from God knows where...AND WE ARE SUPPORTiNG THEM .....whose idea was this in the first place ???

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5076d

Re  Thought the numbers were being cut?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    overall, yes but on the beat, more. Apparently for every one outside there are nine inside !!.

Tony Price ● 5076d

Re  these illegal 'landlords' some of whom are probably their own compatriots....            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        persactly, and therein may well lay a potentially increasing problem

Tony Price ● 5076d

Re  > If you are renting places out for cash then it > probably won't be declared as income for tax purposes.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    I would like to think it is, and any place let out has to be registered with the Local Authority, and certainly, gas safety cert issued every year.

Tony Price ● 5076d

Re these dogy buildings probably have dodgy electrics.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        very good point. There can be no reason why inspection of the Safety Documentation as needed to be issued by an  electrian authorised to inspect and issue certs of safety, and if such cannot be produced, the place be declared dangerous and unfit for human habitation. That could be the first move to empty the " sheds "  and could be carried out by existing personnel of the Council. If there is anything iffy re the certs themselves, the issuer should be taken to task and the installation inspectd by Council officials, who must already exist, so there should be no question of increased costs, just work harder and longer. In the process, no doubt record could be made of the occupants , the monies they pay, whether such is declared to the Inland Revenue. I doubt if any of the " sheds " have gas laid on, but if so, the same could be done as with the electrical supply, and the dangers of faulty gas installations are obvious to all, the occupants, owners and  those living in the area. IF the Council had the will and the wit, all this could have been done well before now. So the question arises, why hasn't it, especially by the local MP,who as far as I am aware , has not uttered a word re this scandal on his doorstep. We as ratepayers and inhabitants of the Borough are entitled to answers on these questions of local inaction. The opposition parties should be making great advantage of the incumbents' failures in this matter.

Tony Price ● 5076d

What other country???Most countries in Europe including Italy, France, Germany and Holland all have similar problems. Look further afield and you will see that all 1st world countries have similar problems - symptomatic of the growing global gap between rich and poor.

James Brown ● 5077d

Thank you for your help Charles. When I referred to officers I wasn't writing about police officers I was writing about council officers. This sort of illegal housing has become such an important issue that a senior officer from planning or environment needs to explain how this problem has reached such proportions. That might include the chief executive. After all it made Ealing famous through that TV programme. Whose job was it to nip this in the bud? And why was the bud not nipped? The borough-wide consultation called the Local Development Framework now approved and guiding planning consents over the next 15 years nowhere referred to the problem. So was there a cover-up at a senior level? I attended a meeting this week, part of the "Shaping a Healthier Future" sequence for realigning health care facilities in this area. This population in sheds was mentioned there. So really isn't it time for ealing's senior officers to "come out"?

Arthur Breens ● 5077d

They can - they just don't.The Police these days will avoid every single possible responsibility  that they can.

Tony Colliver ● 5077d

What's the point of more police if they can't police/inspect these sheds !!

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5077d

More Police on the streets?Thought the numbers were being cut?

Amy Brookes ● 5077d

Dear All who have posted comments here.Action is now being taken by the Police & Council on this issue. To get an up-date, do come to our next public meeting - Wednesday, May 23 7pm at Ealing Town Hall.You will also get an up-date on the implementation of the 'New Policing Model' for London - main aim to get more officers on the streets.Plus up-date on Operation Cubo, which is getting uninsured vehicles off the roads. Ealing Officers being amongst the best in doing this within the Met.Charles GallichanChairman - Ealing PCG

Charles Gallichan ● 5077d

Marie,We have a problem in that no one official wants to reply. Best to keep your head down. This problem began under a conservative council and continues to exist under a labour council so we have to assume it is officers who need to reply. They won't. This silence indicates a complete failure of local government. No one seems accountable and the bigger the salary the less accountable officers seem to become. We should have enterered them for the Olympics so they could run rings round each other and not round us.

Arthur Breens ● 5077d

So many excuses ..... Surely the BBC filmed exposes with interviews with some of the shed occupants should be more than enough evidence as to the scams being perpetrated. What more proof does the Council need....just get on with taking action NOW !!!

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5077d

The route forward is probably via the HMRC - they can be very pragmatic about such matters and have no philosophical problem whatsoever with collecting tax on an activity regarded as "illegal".

Tony Colliver ● 5077d

Yeah right.

Keith Iddon ● 5077d

Surely it can't be rocket science to establish from which country the illegals have come from eg language.Many have probably come in on a lorry and should be sent back with or without a passport. what other country would tolerate this invasion of so many undesirables.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5077d

It seems that the council will use every loophole to avoid rooting out these illegal 'landlords' some of whom are probably their own compatriots....--------------------------------------I'm sure some of them ARE English, yes.....

Jeremy Hanson ● 5077d

I would suggest too that possibly not all the inhabitants were known to the immigration service or that not all had current visas.

Keith Iddon ● 5077d

It seems that the council will use every loophole to avoid rooting out these illegal 'landlords' some of whom are probably their own compatriots.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5077d

Thank god that the northern contagion regarding registering landlords has not yet spread to England.It is a waste of time and money.  After all, do you imagine any so-called 'rogue' landlords actually registering?I have personal experience of the complete council-mediated screwup of this stupid legislation north of the border.  It is an utter and very expensive fiasco.> If you are renting places out for cash then it > probably won't be declared as income for tax purposes.Yep - HMRC - those are the boys (and girls) with the powers to deal with this most pragmatically.  They are however very short staffed these days...

Tony Colliver ● 5077d

What are real criminals?---------------------------I wish I knew, but it is an all too familiar cry..... heheMy personal suspicion as to why little or nothing is happening is that it is cheaper and easier (for the council) to leave them there. Lets suppose they raid every last house in the borough looking for these constructions and knock them down. You are then left with one huge problem. A housing crisis. Responsibility of Ealing Council. Will cost them a fortune. If, as some on here suggest, they are all here illegally, what do you do with them? You cannot deport them if you don't know their country of origin (illegal immigrants tend to destroy any documentation for this very purpose, as I understand).Knocking the buildings down and prosecuting the offenders are the start, not the end, of the problems

Jeremy Hanson ● 5077d

What are real criminals?If you aren't paying Council Tax (or if it isn't paid on your behalf) then you are stealing from those that do.Aren't landlords suppossed to be registered now?If you are renting places out for cash then it probably won't be declared as income for tax purposes.That should be enough, someone needs to convince the powers that be that beds in sheds will cause a cut off at their feeding trough.  That'll get some action!

Amy Brookes ● 5077d

There are over 1200 Acts of Parliament which permit a 'right of entry without warrant'. Some are ridiculous such as the 'right' to place bees on another's land and this is something that Lord Selsdon is trying to get 'rationalised'.There are however some 'sensible' provisions such as the rights of Gas and Electricity companies to check for safety or illegal installations. They are permitted to use 'reasonable force' to enter a premises to do so.It wouldn't be beyond the wit of Council officers, given the will, to work with one or more of these agencies on the assumption that these dogy buildings probably have dodgy electrics.

Nigel Brooks ● 5077d

Isn't it part of a Policemans job to get the evidence? It seems that the location of beds in sheds is well known, the entrance must be somewhere, park an unmarked car, observe who comes and goes and what happens when the light goes out.  Get a thermal imaging camera on see who is sleeping and it should be job done?-----------------------------That would certainly be the way to gather evidence, yes. If that were to happen though, I can see many considering it a waste police time and money when they should be out catching 'real criminals'

Jeremy Hanson ● 5077d

I hope you agree that something should be done.It is likely that there will be a tragedy as a result of these unregulated and unsafe dwellings and then the powers needed will be given and enforced imo. That is how things work much of the time--------------------------------------Absolutely something should be done! Unfortunately I don't have an answer. The law as it stands has allowed this to happen because that is the nature of some, to exploit laws that are there to protect - the HRA is a classic case in point.Once you start giving cart blanche to the authorities to clear up *this* problem, it WILL be abused. That is the nature of authority

Jeremy Hanson ● 5077d

Isn't it part of a Policemans job to get the evidence?It seems that the location of beds in sheds is well known, the entrance must be somewhere, park an unmarked car, observe who comes and goes and what happens when the light goes out.  Get a thermal imaging camera on see who is sleeping and it should be job done?

Amy Brookes ● 5077d

I hope you agree that something should be done.It is likely that there will be a tragedy as a result of these unregulated and unsafe dwellings and then the powers needed will be given and enforced imo. That is how things work much of the time.

Keith Iddon ● 5077d

As I understand it Jeremy 'reasonable grounds' for a search warrant or court order have to include evidence of the specific reason for the search----------------------------------Not so for 'stop and search', which this is more akin to. however, by your definition, what would be the reasonable grounds for them to enter a suspected 'shed with bed'? The fact if it being in Southall or Hounslow wouldn't be enough. So they need to gather evidence, which negates George's post about 'without warning' unless it is done covertly, costing money that no one has at this time of massive cuts.I am all for rooting out illegal practices and buildings and dealing with the offenders, but as I say, the solution isn't straightforward

Jeremy Hanson ● 5077d

As I understand it Jeremy 'reasonable grounds' for a search warrant or court order have to include evidence of the specific reason for the search.

Keith Iddon ● 5077d

If they have 'reasonable grounds' in law why not?-----------------------------------For the same reason that you put reasonable grounds in quote marks. Because that is such a grey area and could be used for more intrusive, even oppressive, purposes should the authorities wish. You just need to look at people detained 'under the prevention of terrorism act' when their alleged crime has nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism. These things do get abused by authority. It is the same principle. They could turn up at your door and say they had resonable grounds (an anonymous tip-off?) and march straight in

Jeremy Hanson ● 5077d

If they have 'reasonable grounds' in law why not?

Keith Iddon ● 5077d

Ben, what is needed is a change in the law, so that inspections by Council Officers can be made without warning.-------------------------But that is the same law that prevents officials barging in to YOUR home unannounced and 'inspecting' whatever they likeTher is a middle ground somewhere, but it isn't straightforward

Jeremy Hanson ● 5077d

Before spending loads of public  money on this problem money should first be taken from the owners of the ' sheds ' by way of fines and penalties. The sheds should be demolished and any illegal occupants deported  asap. Help should only then be available to the genuine legal people who have been exploited by these scamming corrupt landlords.Those councillors who were aware of the situation but turned a blind eye should be fired.Get with the programme and deal with this issue which has been in place for a long time........we won't let it 'blow over'...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5078d

Ealing gets £200,000 to eliminate "beds in sheds". How does that work? The problem of street children in the Georgian towns was solved in the Victorian period by housing children in enormous orphanages. Where are the inhabitants of beds in sheds to be rehoused? If they are illegal will it be in prisons at £45,000 pa ? If they are poor will they be rehoused in Stoke on housing benefit? If they are from the EU can you repatriate them or do you just move them and the problem to other boroughs? Are these people from the sheds supporting London's black economy? Or employers who pay the minimum wage? I am worried that like much of this Coalition legislation Grant Shapps MP hasn't got the detail sorted. This is a tiny sum of money and it looks like a gesture to me. You wonder how we have got to this. This must have been a gradual process where officials turned a blind eye just as the police did in the recent rape cases in the Northwest.

Arthur Breens ● 5080d

Ben, what is needed is a change in the law, so that inspections by Council Officers can be made without warning.

George Knox ● 5080d