Forum Topic

Who are they afraid of ???

A survey has discovered that Supermarkets such as Asda, Tesco, Sainsbury and Morrisons are afraid to sell Religious Christmas Cards! How ridiculous - who are they afraid of upsetting???Out of a total of 6576 cards only 36 had anything with a Religious theme which is less then 0.5%  In Asda only 4 Religious cards could be found on sale out of a total of 2600 cards!!!As far as I am aware this is supposed to be a Christian Country and I have not heard of any other groups of people from a different faith being afraid to send and receive greetings to one another.How can it do any harm to have Religious cards on sale, or to send and receive such cards? Why are they trying to take Christ out of Christmas?No doubt I shall bear the brunt of criticism from certain quarters for posting this comment on the forum, if anyone doesn't agree then your are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

Jean F Fernandez ● 5219d39 Comments

Re  The police in their arrest records do not allow "English" as a nationality,        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    do  they allow Welsh or Scottish, or Irish?.. I would imagine so. There is a determined effort to wipe England  and the nation of the English  away. When Two Jags was  Deputy PM, he wrote a letter which the recipient still has apparently, saying since the Union, there is no  such people as the English. Stupid idiot was saying at the same time there is no people as the Scots, which had he said so in so many words, he would have reaped a rich  " reward ". When I was on the A O L Message boards, we were shown the  copy of Two Jag's letter, it was  a good few years ago.          The Manche area does apply to the parts of the 3 countries bordering the ENGLISH Channel.

Tony Price ● 5212d

Interesting. I mis-interpreted "Manche" to mean the Channel in French!. Did you know that the last UK census was the first one to allow respondents to enter "English" as a nationality; befor that you had to enter "British".Will.P.S. The police in their arrest records do not allow "English" as a nationality, you have to be "British".

William J Malmet ● 5212d

re    "Europe Cut Off by Fog"        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    could well be William, but  Manche is a product of the E U whereby parts of Belgium, France and  England  are tied together as an economic unit which will be administered from Paris, London included!. As far as the E U is concerned, there is / will be no such country as England as I am told such a place does not appear on any map of the E U. We will be done away with from without, as we are now from within. Thank you Quislings. ( thank God Cameron stood up for  The CITY, which the Germans and French in particular want debased ).

Tony Price ● 5212d

Speaking of Canal La Manche, there was that famous English newspaper headline of the interwar era last century: "Europe Cut Off by Fog". I believe this is still spoken out of journalism schools.

William J Malmet ● 5212d

Re  They are afraid of each other        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    sad,  but fear is the greatest motivator, but who has instilled this fear and why. The originators and " leaders " of the E U ?. Could well be, break down the nation states so they regard themselves as no longer existing as such and thus prepared to join something on offer, the United States of Europe. Divide conquer and rule, and they find quislings in every country. Plenty on these Forums, prepared to denigrate  "their own " and praise laud and magnify  all others, the last Govt. being masters of the break-up of our society by mass immigration. That was their aim, outed in the end.            Ask your MP  re what is The Manche and see what response you get. I did, and got nothing, was  ignored, ie  didn't want to answer. Probably not allowed to, like the Revised Tenancy Agreement 2001.

Tony Price ● 5212d

They are afraid of each other. Peer or societal conformity is one of the most forces in action in London today. To appear more "normal" than anyone else is the quest of those who regard the Evening Standard as the bible and model of what to buy and to do. Therefore, one has to appear more Politically Correct (PC) than your friend/neighbour/colleague. Once upon a time it was doorstep-washing and front lawn mowing/feeding/trimming that marked your place in society, now it is political correctness!Will.

William J Malmet ● 5213d

Unlikely.We would probably all be worshipping Wicca or Pagan 'deities' or some Roman god or other.Fantastic news BTW Sara,  Happy Hanukkah (in with a day to spare!).

Nigel Brooks ● 5214d

If it isn't was for Jesus, we would all be Jewish!

Ben Owen ● 5214d

Fantastic news, Sara!

Bob Durban ● 5214d

My "Save Gaby's Deli" campaign has sold about 1000 Christmas cards designed by a cartoonist at the Jewish Chronicle, featuring a Xmas tree decorated with falafel and sold online and by Gaby himself - an Iraqi-Israeli Jew who has lived here and served every faith for over 45 years.We made £400 to donate to the St Martin's in the Fields' (can't get more Christian than that!) winter out-reach work as that happens just by Gaby's.Have a tasty New Year.

Sara Nathan ● 5214d

MarkThere are people who claim to be carrying out the will of god by murdering innocent folk. That is incompatible with most religious texts. Religion has been used by many to justify mass murder. But the real message of love is within most faiths. the morons are those people who claim to be following god but ignore the message. I am sorry but i do not understand fancy latin words but Logic for me is important. I examine things generally in a logical manner and for me faith does have some logic. faith means making a jump to something that you believe in without God actually showing you his/her face. So for me and my logical analyses I actually have faith!! But a Merry Christmas to all views on this forum. Let us move into 2012 as a beacon of tolerance!!

Peter Chadburn ● 5217d

Your statement "if they kill or incite hatred in the name of god then they are faithless morons" makes no logical sense.Never mind. I suspect you will continue indefinitely to respond with non sequitur, as you claim faith and that is by definition not susceptible to logic.Merry christmas.

Mark Vale ● 5217d

Susan,These twisted people have no love in their hearts and do not represent the Jesus whose birth i am celebrating. They live in narrow ghetto's of thought amongst their own. Jesus and his disciples mixed with all people and spread their message to other nationalities. so these "committed" are just sad characters who have no love!!

Peter Chadburn ● 5218d

So Mark and Bob my comment about faithless morons is about the people who use justification to kill. if they kill or incite hatred in the name of god then they are faithless morons. because faith would lead them not to take such actions. you think my comment about Nazi Germany does me a disservice. There are dangers within any society that persecution of one group will lead to persecution of all groups. It started with the Jews, the Disabled, the Gays and also the Christians. I have read a lot about Germany under the Nazi's and one of my teachers was a member of the Hitler Youth in her younger days. She told us in the early 70's about what it meant to be a student in Germany and hearing from someone who grew up in that environment is a wonderful history lesson that we should all learn from. I am not in  this thread singling out muslims but am saying that tolerance is incredibly important. The fundamentals are to love your neighbour and to care about others.

Peter Chadburn ● 5218d

Speaking of the extreme wing of the Christian church reminds me of the 'committed Christians' who wrote to the Soham parents telling them that they deserved the murder of their children as they had allowed them to play out on a Sunday instead of sitting quietly in the corner reading the Bible.Christ would be turning in his grave if he hadn't, apparently, risen from it already.

Susan Kelly ● 5218d

Mark,A woman working for a supplier of staff to duty free shops is taking her employers to a tribunal as she was sacked after a couple of muslim colleagues complained.It is interesting that if you read my comment, other muslims and people of other faiths supported her but her white bosses got rid of her. My comment about nazi germany was in the context of general bigotry and how stories are portrayed.This lady was Lebanese .http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8917675/Christian-worker-loses-her-job-after-being-targeted-by-Islamic-extremists.htmlthis was not the daily mail but the telegraph. I am against bgotry of all kinds and would be against any discrimination against muslims. However we have to recognise that sadly there are some people who follow a perverted interpretation of islam and who believe that all infidels should die. Then once the infidels are dead it will be the wrong type of muslims who are killed.

Peter Chadburn ● 5218d

Well said, Mark, and whilst I think Peter did make some valid points I would like to know who are the "small clique of Muslim workers" who got a Christian woman "kicked out of a job at the airport", as all the Muslims I know have great respect for Christ and Christianity (and, in fact, regard Jesus as the Messiah). To many Muslims what is important is faith, not which faith.Sorry, but it's just another story which doesn't sound convincing.

Bob Durban ● 5218d

What an unpleasant and un-Christian thread this has turned into.May I enquire if all the 'faithless' are morons in your view, or only some? And if so, how can you tell which are morons?Can you supply a reference to the Christian woman was kicked out of a job at the airport? The well-publicised B.A. employee with the cross was merely sent home on full pay, so I guess you have someone else in mind.Trotting out nazi Germany, in my opinion, does your argument a disservice.

Mark Vale ● 5218d

The Press never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!

Peter Chadburn ● 5218d

Tony,Can you tell me what you mean by,"Note how the outside reporters interview non traditional persons in preference and we are allowed to come second."Who or what are non traditional persons?Merry Christmas,M

Mark Vale ● 5218d

I had wondered about the reliablity of the stories and the interpretation of data. I do not feel Christmas is under threat. Yes some of the evangelical extremists remind me of the taliban types. both do their respective religions a great diservice. the idiot in the states wanting to burn the koran alongside the people in pakistan who murder christians are all in the same sorry mess as faithless morons. Faith to me implies taking a leap to a higher level and as such requires some understanding of what the religion is all about. I am a Christian who is involved with Church life but also I live in a fantastic city which is exciting to live in. Christians generally are not persecuted. However in some isolated cases we have seen examples of intolerance in which a Christian woman was kicked out of a job at the airport as weak white bosses sought to appease a small clique of muslim workers. the woman was supported by fellow workers of all faiths and no faith. We are generally tolerant and whilst papers whould hunt out bad deeds they must be careful as to the actual truth as that would lead to the bigotry that was seen in Nazi germany.

Peter Chadburn ● 5218d

Excellent posts from M Duley and Mark Vale. Yes, I'm afraid Jean Fernandez, Tony Price and certain others are full of synthetic rage - they wail and gnash their teeth about things like this because they WANT to believe they are true. They love to feel persecuted by 'minorities'. Those of us who dare to disagree with their bigotry are accused of "political correctness gone mad" as though we were engaging in witchcraft.I would not believe anything that any religious leader says. There was one Christian evangelical fruitloop on "Sunday Morning Live" a few months ago and he was claiming Christians are persecuted in this country in the way Jews were persecuted in Nazi Germany. This is despite the huge special privileges enjoyed by the Christian faith.Personally, since being a child I have always bought Christmas cards with holly or snowmen on them because I found those bearing pictures of nativity scenes to be too dull and pretentious. At the time I never realised I was being "PC" or undermining our culture by doing this!I have never met anyone from any religion (or none) who is offended by the religious element of Christmas. Needless to say, the Daily Hate Mail loves spinning these lies - in the 1930s the minority they did it against was Jewish refugees.A word of warning to you MD & MV... Tony Price and others will now accuse you of being me and they'll again accuse me of being someone else. I'm afraid that's how bad the paranoia is on this board.

Bob Durban ● 5218d

Told you it wasn't kosher.Happy Hanukkah.

Susan Kelly ● 5218d

My only surprise it that the Daily Mail didn't find a reason to blame barmy Brussels eurocrats!Never let the facts get in the way of a good outrage.

Mark Vale ● 5218d

Has anyone actually read the report on which this nonsense is based?http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077278/Supermarkets-ashamed-sell-religious-Christmas-cards-obscene-ones-litter-high-street.html"Supermarkets have become ‘ashamed’ of selling Christmas cards with religious themes, Christian leaders said yesterday."So no actual evidence that anyone is ashamed or afraid to sell religious cards. That's that sorted then. Nothing to actually be outraged about.The headline is just the opinion of two rent-a-quote folk that the Daily Mail wheel out regularly to provide on-demand outrage in support of their manufactured, light-on-facts stories, which are created to serve the paper's agenda.Not "Christian leaders", as the article suggests, but members of niche pressure/lobbying groups. The only religious leader quoted doesn't express anything other than disappointment "that so few of our Christmas cards now portray symbols and scenes at the heart of the Christmas story". Hardly causing him much worry by the sound of things.From the article (of course, deliberately placed at the end of the article where the fewest percentage of readers will ever see it):"An Asda spokesman said: ‘We sell a variety of cards that meet the demand of our customers.’Tesco said: ‘Our religious Christmas card range has increased for the second year running.’Sainsbury’s also said that what appeared on shelves was based on customer demand, adding: ‘It is wrong to suggest we are ignoring religious themes at Christmas.’And Morrisons said its range of religious cards included a multi-pack aimed at children that included the Nativity scene."hmmmm, so in fact the low proportion of religious Christmas cards is nothing to do with being "afraid" or "ashamed", and everything to do with the fact that most people don't seem to want to buy them. For those that do want to buy them, these terrified, self-loathing supermarkets seem to have plenty of religious cards to cover the demand. What a non-story. Still, seems to have got a few folk on here nicely outraged, as intended. 1-0 to the Daily Mail.

M. Duley ● 5218d

I usually get cards from the Card Aid shops at churches and try to get religious one's. I also wish all my colleagues around the world a Merry Christmas. No American colleague as yet has made a complaint. I respect that others may have a faith or no faith at all. I eat Pork here but would never think of eating Pork in a predominately Muslim Country. True faith teaches you to be tolerant and so I believe that I must be tolerant. But the PC nonsense is sometimes fact but also sometimes fiction as I have never heard of Muslims (apart from the fanatical oddballs) being offended by Christmas. In fact a Mulsim colleague of mine ended up organising a Christmas party at her last job. We all live in a real world of common interest and broadly similar principles and attitudes. I have also been asked by a Muslim to pray for a relative. In fact the supermarkets probably want to remove the link between Christ and Christmas and have Happy Holiday in order to hopefully get more money out of more folk. So I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!

Peter Chadburn ● 5218d

It's obvious from your posts you only bought religious cards because you think you're having a pop at people who like diversity. The sad thing is you're not because no one out there cares. As for me being redbreast, my name is Robert or can't you read? Guess it makes you a Tit.

Bob Durban ● 5218d

Re  then sneering is inappropriate.                xxxxxxxxxxxxxx  quite right. I was taught  never try to take another persons religion away from them ( discuss and debate by all means ) because that is right for them at their stage in their own  evolvement and/or the environment in which they are. I M O, all religions are man-made but some more evolved than others. One has only to dissect logically what is written to come to that conclusion.

Tony Price ● 5218d

Which is why every little bit hurts.If you want good quality religious cards then go to a museum art gallery or a church or sometimes a charity shop.If people wish to believe, then sneering is inappropriate.

George Knox ● 5218d

If Uber-capitalists Tesco saw a demand for religious cards then they'd be selling them. And I don't mean that a criticism; Tesco got where it is by giving its customers what they want.

Susan Kelly ● 5218d

Re    the dark ages, let us not go back there.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  exactly, my stance is not  necessarily standing up for Christianity but taking a stand against those who attack my country, culture , customs etc, which are what make my country. Plus don't overlook the fact those who do attack or wish to diminish the Christian religion very often want to put another one in it's place,  one of which in particular is well back in those dark ages, where we were  hundreds of years ago. I tell my Islamic friends just that.

Tony Price ● 5218d

Re  that the supermarkets are responding to demand,       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      that is possible, the last lot I bought were from Makro and outright in their reference to Christmas, which is why I bought them, plus I also sent  " e mailed versions " to my Islamic friends and from one a very special individual in Pakistan I have this morning received two  thank you's, one saying thanks for a lovely Christmas card and the other wishing me many more Christmases. It is by and large, not the adherents to other faiths who voice objection to Christmas but the P C walleys, Gestapo thought Police and other left wing trouble makers whose aim is to undermine the traditional ways of Western society, examples of whom we see on these Forums. ( I see the red breasted stalker is at large and so quickly!.)  Jews have long since  " celebrated "  aspects of Christmas, ie the giving of presents so that their children do not feel left out of the general feel of things, likewise now Muslims I know are doing it for the same reason and Indian friends  have long since done so.

Tony Price ● 5218d

Exactly, took the words out of my mouth.There was a time when religion held massive sway over the UK and most of Europe, and it was called the dark ages, let us not go back there.Feel free to worship your own sky pixie but leave us out.

Norma Harrison ● 5218d

I don't think I believe in this survey. If the supermarkets  were really 'afraid' to sell religious cards then there would be none rather than a small percentage.The CofE, to which most Christians in this country belong, is embarrassed by overt displays of religiosity and I suspect that most of its adherents avoid, say, manger scenes, in favour of the robins and snowmen, which seem to make up most of my haul this year.Isn't it likely that the supermarkets are responding to demand, or lack of it, for overtly religious cards?

Susan Kelly ● 5218d

BobIt is your choice whether or not to believe. If you are committed to your atheist opinions then sobeit and why should anyone seek to change them?This country is incredibly tolerant of other faiths or no faith. There are not many atheists in some religious 'totalitarian' states where atheist views are viewed as apostate and would lead, at best to imprisonment.I think the issue here, given that the majority including you, will celebrate Christmas, a hijacked date and festival by the way but that's another matter, is the removal of the religious element by those who believe that they are 'in the mind' of other faiths, they clearly are not given the sound condemnation of the 'deChristening' of Christmas by other faith leaders.As to faith schools, thanks for your contribution to some of the best performing schools in the country. The Church of England is the largest educator in England and, without their intervention, at a local level, north Ealing would not be getting a new high school in the very near future.

Nigel Brooks ● 5218d

If by "thought Gestapo" you mean those of us who refuse to be bullied by you into agreeing with your stupid views, then I guess I fall into that category.May I ask what "survey" this finding is based on? I see advertisements for Christmas everywhere - and despite being an atheist I take part in the festivities.In fact, I'm so tolerant of Christianity that I pay taxes towards denominational schools so they can brainwash children into believing fairtales.P.S.:- I suppose for daring to express an opinion, I will now be accused of being "politically correct" in the same way people used to be accused of witchcraft: and to top it all, the Gestapo will no doubt also accuse me of being someone else.

Bob Durban ● 5218d

Re  who are they afraid of upsetting              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      Jean, it is the result of the thought Gestapo who have and continue their efforts to upset, disrupt and dismember the traditional indigenous societies of Western countries. It is not confined to the UK, most Western/Christian orientated countries  suffer the same left wing commie style infestation which has been going on for many decades. We read almost daily of some PC walley trying to suppress the customs habits and culture of Western countries, these Forums are likewise infested, as we well read. Needless to say, the religion of our countries is a favourite for attack or brainwashed suppression. The T V companies are not lacking in that area. Note how the outside reporters interview non traditional persons in preference and we are allowed to come second. It is not just our Christian religion that gets attacked this way  but that it does is shame enough of the way the new Gestapo, or should one say the KGB,  manage to inplant their prejudices. As a matter of interest, even Ealing Council are guilty of religious discrimination, so it seems.

Tony Price ● 5218d

JeanYou are absolutely right.Doubtless some overpaid 'focus group' thought that the sale of Christian cards would offend people of other faiths. The same type of narrow-minded idiot that says 'Happy Holidays!' at Christmastide.What absolute tosh!Jesus, in Islam, was the last prophet sent by Allah. My Hindu and Muslim friends and I exchange cards at Christmas, Eid and Diwali. We are all people of faith, we respect each others beliefs and would, collectively, defend our right to believe.If the sale of Christian cards upsets the Dawkins' of this world and his followers, then sobeit. As they don't believe they can hardly be offended.Forgive me but, "bloody stupid supermarkets" sums it up.

Nigel Brooks ● 5218d

Jean, You make a good point. Christmas means different things to different people and we all express the message which we can relate to. I am a Christian and at this time of the year I send and receive cards from family, friends and colleagues who have a wide variety of backgrounds. The cards that I receive reflect the different beliefs, and none, of the people who send them. I always send religious cards because those cards reflect the message I am giving. In recent years it has become more difficult to find religious cards. Although I have to say that this year I bought all my cards from Tesco. Perhaps I had bought all the religious cards before the survey was carried out.

John Popham ● 5219d