Forum Topic

Houses in Multiple Occupation

There are regulations for these.  These are often the houses where no recycling is done and masses of black sacks are piled up outside on bin day if not before.  They are the houses that may cause problems for there neighbours who don't know how or what to do about the situation.  Of course this is not always the case.  Here is some information on the regulation of these in Ealing."The penalties for landlords who do not apply for a licence or who breach licence conditionsLandlords who let licensable HMOs without obtaining a licence are committing a criminal offence. If prosecuted they could have to pay afine of up to £20,000. A similar fine could be charged to a landlord who has a licence which allows a certain number of occupiers,and he or she knowingly lets to a larger number of people.Lesser fines may be charged for other breaches of the licence conditions."   and moreIn the London Borough of Ealing:"All HMOs except houses occupied by two people plus the landlord and his household." must be licensed.These regulations are for the safety of tenants and good management of the property - smoke alarms, gas certificate, electrical safety etc.For more info:http://www.ealing.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/876/hmo_new_landlords_guide

Philippa Bond ● 5327d19 Comments

How can rubbish possibly be a different subject?Rubbish is what someone doesn't want ie what can and can't be recycled.Not separating it results in a greater number of smelly black sacks attractive to vermin.An enlightened Landlord would provide amenity space, set up and information for both.  Doing it is the tenants' responsibility.

Philippa Bond ● 5317d

You initially commented in your first post that HMO's are properties where little recycling is done and then implying that it is primarily the landlord's responsibility.  My question is why do you think that and what is your source. The links you provided do not mention recycling. Again, the landlord does not have to arrange delivery of the clear plastic recycling bags or the different coloured canvas bags. That is between the tenants and the council.  Rubbish is a different subject, so please stay with the recycling.

Charles Campbell ● 5325d

It is the landlord's responsibility to make sure that there is adequate storage for rubbish.  This comes under the Health & Safety requirements.  If it is well organised it will work well.

Philippa Bond ● 5325d

There are several private houses in this area that have been purchased and modified, with extensions, outhouses disguised as garages with a door bolted on to the wall facing the road, or workshops, and then let to large numbers of people, often without planning permission or authority. Many are not registered or licensed as either an HMO or flats, people living there are often not UK citizens and do not appear on official lists, but do add to the council costs.

Chris Bell ● 5325d

I'm still not sure why you think HMO's have anything to do with recycling.  A landlord's responsibility to his tenants and to his property whether it be deemed an HMO or not doesn't extend to a requirement to call the council for them to get recycling bags whether they be the clear plastic bags or the canvas ones.  That is the tenant's responsibility.  You may be confusing an HMO with a large block of flats.

Charles Campbell ● 5325d

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/Privaterenting/Repairsandstandards/DG_189200

Philippa Bond ● 5325d

It does when the management have not planned and provided space or adequate and necessary bins and bags.The Council now runs more recycling for flats. Sometimes the amenity space for bins was part of the planning permission and it needs to stay as that.

Philippa Bond ● 5325d

Whether a property is an HMO or not doesn't really seem to have a lot to do with the resident's recycling habits.  I suspect it has more to do with the individual resident's personal attributes. Many properties in Ealing have been converted into flats (which are not HMO's).  These properties, because of the number of flats, will generally have a larger number of black bin bags in front for collection.

Charles Campbell ● 5325d

My old job involved working any hours, any days, anywhere, at any notice, and subject to change at any time. I have stayed in many hotels, B&B's, and digs, covering the full range from absolutely top class to total tat. The cost and view of the property from the road often gave no indication of what it was like inside, and some of the worst have been in well known expensive tourist areas, but I had to stay somewhere, often at short notice, and often when huge numbers of people were searching for accommodation in the same area at the same time.

Chris Bell ● 5325d

NigelThis started because of a post on Actonw3 about neighbours like this who put out masses of black bags each week and no recycling when the majority now are down to one or less.It was something I looked at when my uni student decided to share a house with friends.  It is right for parents to be worried.  There are some very poorly maintained HMOs out there.  Agents often seem to do little more than collect the money.  Some of his friends did have to move out of their house after the electrics were condemned.  These kids are so thrilled with their independence and desperation for digs that they can overlook things - like safety.(It wasn't Ealing in our case but I know LBE have problems like this.)

Philippa Bond ● 5325d

from www.direct.gov.uk"Landlord responsibilities for health and safety in HMOs  You must make sure your HMO is properly maintained and meets health and safety requirements at all times.You must:give your contact details to your tenantskeep fire escapes clear and maintain fire fighting equipment and alarmsensure that the property design and structure will not cause any injuryprovide adequate, uninterrupted water supply and drainageprovide adequate supply of gas (if any) and electricitycheck annual gas safety certification (if gas is supplied) and electricity safety every five yearskeep the property and any shared gardens in good repairprovide suitable rubbish disposalThe local authority has to carry out a Housing Health and Safety Rating System (HHSRS) risk assessment on your HMO within five years of receiving a licence application.You must also carry out any works that are required as the result of a safety inspection."http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/Privaterenting/Repairsandstandards/DG_189200

Philippa Bond ● 5325d

That gives some information about an HMO but appears to assume that it is privately owned, but it is obvious that sometimes one or more buildings constitute a commercial business enterprise, no less than long stay hotels. Any hotel would pay business rates and taxes.

Chris Bell ● 5325d

I've found some more info here:http://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/100007/housing/393/multiple_occupancy_housingThis gives links to the standards required within these dwellings kitchens, bathrooms, heating etc.  Also gives the cost of a licence - how long it usually runs for plus lots more information.  More about the Housing Act 2004 and gas certificates, electrical safety etc...

Philippa Bond ● 5325d

If a house is an HMO but there are only non-UK citizens living there, so nobody is eligible to vote, etc, there is little incentive to register the premises and pay commercial rates and taxes. What should they pay, and what do they pay in practice?

Chris Bell ● 5326d

To answer my own questions it appears that if a house is extended and the extension given a new number it is all one house in law.Definition of a single household Section 258 of the Housing Act 2004 sets out when persons are to be regarded as not forming a single household. To count as a member of a household, persons must be all members of the same family, and family is defined as, Those persons who are married to each other or live together as husband and wife (or in an equivalent relationship in the case of persons of the same sex); or One of them is a relative of the other; or One of them is, or is a relative of, one member of a couple and the other is a relative of the other member of the couple. “Relative” means parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, niece or cousin; and half relatives count as full relatives. Step-children and foster children count as relatives. In addition, any domestic staff count as part of the household if they are living rent free in accommodation provided by the person for whom they are working. I question whether officers are enforcing this. Landlords are extending properties for multiple occupation and building sheds with beds.

Graham Weeks ● 5327d

OK I gave you the info for just Ealing from the document listed above.  Here is the info for the West London boroughs - they are not the same.  Graham's answer may be in the document above.  I haven't studied it.Properties which must be licensed:The table below describes the houses in multiple occupation that are required to be licensed in each of the West London boroughs.Borough Properties which must be licensed:BRENT    All HMOs except houses occupied by only two  households and houses occupied by two people plus thelandlord/manager and his household.EALING  All HMOs except houses occupied by two people plus the landlord and his household.H'SMITH & FULHAM    All HMOs of three or more storeys occupied by five or more people; and the same properties as in Brent for HMOs in Addison/Coningham/Grove/College Park and Old Oak/White City and Shepherds Bush/College Park and Old Oak and White City and Shepherds Bush extension/Fulham Broadway/North End/Avonmore and Brook Green Wards.HARROW    All HMOs except houses occupied by two people only and houses occupied by two people plus the landlord and his household.HILLINGDON    All HMOs except houses occupied by people who form only two households; and houses occupied by no more than four people who form more than two households; and houses occupied by no more than three people plus thelandlord/manager and his household.HOUNSLOW    The same properties as Hillingdon.RBK&C    Mandatory Licensing only, that is, HMOs that are three storey and above with five or more individuals forming two or more households.

Philippa Bond ● 5327d

I think a house is judged to be in multiple occupancy if it is a house that has 3 or more storeys, which is occupied by 3 or more persons who form 2 or more separate households, where at least 1 of the households is not fully self contained (and may be sharing kitchen / bathroom / garden (and its waste!)).

Ben Owen ● 5327d

May I ask what started this discussion?

Nigel Brooks ● 5327d

But when a house is extended and !A is added to 1, is it still multiple occupancy?I understand that if the tenants are all of the same family, Multiple Occupancy does not apply. If people come from cultures where those of the same ethnicity are all family then they are likely to claim the household is one extended family. How do officers judge this or do they not bother?

Graham Weeks ● 5327d