Forum Topic

Phil Taylor · 9/8/2011 6:46:00 AM

new.EalingToday.co.uk Communtity Forum Topic posting

Labour's new £1 million garden tax

Yesterday the Gazette reported that the Labour council is to introduce a new £40 tax to pay for fortnightly collections of garden waste from a wheelie bin. Genius! http://www.ealinggazette.co.uk/ealing-news/local-ealing-news/2011/09/07/council-to-charge-40-for-collecting-garden-waste-64767-29383245/The Tories warned of the implications of Labour’s shiny new contract back in July. Overall the move will rake in £1.1 million per annum although it will cost £720K to set up. More importantly it will probably see the borough’s hard won recycling rate go backwards by 1%.

Phil Taylor ● 5329d71 Comments

Last night the shadow cabinet "called in" the Labour decision to levy a new £40 per annum garden tax on residents. The decision will be discussed at the Overview and Scrutiny Committee at 7pm on 6th October. Anyone can come. Contact the chairman, Shital Manro, if you want to speak - Shital.Manro@ealing.gov.uk

Phil Taylor ● 5316d

Well OUR opinions will certainly count come the next elections, whether local or national!!!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5320d

Having read all of the comments it is quite clear that this scheme is not what people want. Tell me when Councillors, MPs and Prime Ministers have EVER listened to the people that they govern, they are supposed to be listening to and working for us, or so they say, but they will go on in their own sweet way as usual, our opinions do not count.

Ruth Goldsborough ● 5321d

The poll has now changed, after a week, to one about gun crime.

Nigel Brooks ● 5321d

It's simple, given the society we live in we will end up having the place ening up like a tip as poeple have wised up to being 'miilked' for no good reason. Energy bills, service bills all way over the top and yet profits for said suppliers are even more disproportionate.When people get stitched up they will play them at their own game and fly tip, use the bins of others drive it themselves even if it costs more and we all in the end lose.

Michael Brandt ● 5321d

I suspect that the crazy 'garden refuse' council tax surcharge is just the beginning. I'm sure that it's just a tester to see how well it goes down with us mug council tax payers. What's next? 'Plastics collection' surcharge? 'Bottle' surcharge? Entry fee to the council tip, er, I mean 'recycling centre'?If the council is so cash-strapped that it now risks jeopardising it's commendable recycling rates, surely the first thing to be 'cut back' is frivolous vanity projects like open air pop concerts.

Andy Horridge ● 5321d

I can't see a poll on the webpage - has it been removed? How is 25% a mjority?

Faith Wardle ● 5321d

yes we go out of our way to make sure everything is in the right bags for collection this council must not be aloud to charge for this because this will only be the beginning the next thing they will charge to sweep your street and there is no end to the extra charges there could have up there sleeves this council is a lot worse since the labor party took control everything was working very well and now we are just going backwoods again with them

Harold John Ward ● 5321d

The Gazette poll asks, 'Is it reasonable for Ealing Council to charge for collecting garden waste instead of the service being covered by council tax?' This is not the question that should be asked. It gives no figure as to the extra charge. Anyway. Follow me folks and vtoe NO.

Graham Weeks ● 5321d

Actually, when you think of it - we residents already apend a lot of our time sorting out rubbish into different categories ready for the next collection. It is not only time consuming but we have to find enough space to store everything for up to a week.At present I have 3 pink garden sacks, 2 while sacks for plastics, 2 green boxes for paper/cardboard/glass/tin cans/foil/tetra packs and so on. Then I have a green food bin, plus a smaller food bin, not forgetting of course my sturdy metal dustbin!Now where would I be expected to put wheelie bins??? I could think of many better used for my £40.00.I can forsee that this borough is going to take a number of steps backward as far as recycling is concerned! Not everyone has space nor the inclination to compost garden rubbish. Good for those of you who do but it's not for everyone.When the council charged for reusable garden bags fewer people bothered to use this service. Some I expect just put their garden clippings in the ordinary black bags.What I would like to know is - if the current scheme seems to have the approval of a majority of residents why on earth would the council wish to change this?I thought the idea was to encourage people to recycle as much as possible. Even if residents have a car and take their garden rubbish to the Rubbish Tip surely this is going to cause more pollution?Also if residents decide to burn their garden rubbish some people also add obnoxious materials to the bonfire causing friction between neighbours!Please Ealing Council - seriously rethink this scheme - as I said before...maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board? Surely the voice of the citizens count?

Jean F Fernandez ● 5321d

Surprise, Surprise, so no point in asking the Gazette to help is there???Nice to have friends in high places!!!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5321d

It has been the poll on the Gazette's web page for all of this week, with a surprising 25.5% in favour of the charge.I hadn't realised that Mr. Mahfouz had that many friends. :-)

Nigel Brooks ● 5321d

I suggest you contact The Gazette for them to report and organise one of their polls.

Graham Weeks ● 5321d

As a hard working tax payer who takes time each month to recycle, I find this extra charge incredibly insulting and I will not pay it. It does not encourage people to look after their gardens and may lead to more paving over, which is not good for the environment. The majority of garden waste is not that easy to compost (weeds & twigs etc)and I have no room for a composter or wheelie bin. I also do not have a car so I have no idea what I'm going to do with it. Maybe we should all dump it outside the council offices? Does anyone have contact details for complaints and are there any petitions we can sign? I'd be happy to join an organised protest.

Faith Wardle ● 5321d

This is a repeat of the response to the other similar thread. As ridiculous as this may seem, I do believe this is the way it will go.My guess is that this is a prelude to fortnightly collection on both rubbish and recycle rubbish. They eventually will state that the £40 option didn't work as our citizens refused to participate and, therefore, we no longer have a choice but to introduce fortnightly collection. They will say that it isn't their fault because they gave us a way out. LOL

Charles Campbell ● 5321d

With this contempt for commonsense public opinion, should we now brace ourselves for a revival of the West London Tram Project -- the lunatic scheme that "did for" the Labour administration two elections ago?

Ian D. Richardson ● 5321d

Apart from one person who is a car owner and happy to take garden waste to the tip, I haven't seen, in the entire thread, one person who agrees with the new proposals. We have a great refuse disposal system which works well. I hope the Council have taken all our comments on board at their meeting and rethink their proposals, which are 'rubbish' and a backward step.

Jennifer Moyse ● 5321d

I'm already paying almost £1,400 a year in Council Tax and another £40 is just adding insult to injury. I have a small mid-terrace house with nowhere to put a wheelie bin.The existing system works very well and surely the Council turns our garden waste into compost for their own use, thus saving them money on buying compost for parks etc.What will happen is that people will dump their garden waste or put it in with their rubbish which will mean more stuff going to landfill.They need their heads examined!

Una Dennedy ● 5322d

"Cllr Mahfouz, you're talking rubbish".This (un) intended pun is the only thing about this whole issue that has made me smile.Why, oh why, is this administration seemingly hell-bent on spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on either non-viable or unwanted schemes. It was the same the last time Labour held the purse strings. Anyone remember Response, the call-centre we could all supposedly contact at three in the morning to report the non-arrival of a bin bag? Supposedly considered due to 'demand' (from whom?) and driven through to the point of implementation with hundreds of thousunds of pounds wasted by concillors too blinkered to admit that they were wrong.Did I hear anyone mention the need for a car park in Southall?

Nigel Brooks ● 5322d

A few calls and a drive around Kingston is very revealing.(if I can do this why not our elected representatives?)I finally got an official to admit that the wheely bin has been a disaster in Kingston Town where it's terraced housing streets has rendered the place a mess. The garden waste has barely been taken up and will make a loss this and next year. Fly tipping has surged and reports of vermin have risen by 200% in just the last quarter.However in the larger more suburban parts of the borough, wheely bins have caused less of a problem.Another call reveals that call-outs to the fire service for out of control bonfires has also risen since march over last year.I suggest Cllrs., voting for such a change actually drive around Kingston and Richmond and see for themselves the mess that so called value for money on paper really causes.

Michael Brandt ● 5322d

Can anyone confirm that Richmond and Kingston councils have regressed from an all properties garden waste collection to a subscription charge oollection? (Its unlikely they would have any sense of flytipping or lack of recycling if their subscription service was their highest point) Reducing services or increasing charges for CPZs by cherrypicking other councils is the easy alternative to proper management and housekeeping of our council!

Robert Darke ● 5323d

At our ward forum in Hobbayne last night, a recycling officer tried to explain to us how the new plastics recycling box would work. This was not easy for her to do or for us to listen to as it just got dafter by the second. This was in no way the officers fault. Apparently it comes with a seperate hair net, which the resident has to attach themselves to stop the plastics blowing all over the place. So next year we will go from a system that works really well with people who participate because it is easier to do so than it has been for many years to a system where the plastic recycling box will be harder for residents to use and easier for the refuse collectors to break. Where residents are forced to use a recycling wheelie bin, which by the way is the councils preference, they do not want you having the sacks and will not make that easy for you. It will be harder to participate, more expensive for you with the £40 charge and after spending several hundred thousand on setting this up, it will not deliver the savings promised. Cllr Mahfouz, you're talking rubbish and as usual it will have to be paid for by the rest of us

Colm Costello ● 5323d

It will be interesting to see whether the Councillors listened to the voices of the residents!!!I won't hold my breath!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5323d

Perhaps too late as the vote is this evening but worth a try.I wonder how many other, 'stealth justified by the budget cuts' increases they will try to slip in beofre they are resoundingly kicked-out at the next election.

Nigel Brooks ● 5323d

Shall we start a campaign, similar to the successful one to save our libraries to make the Labour administration listen to the people of Ealing?

James de Vivenot ● 5323d

I believe the Councillors are having a meeting on this topic TODAY so it might be your last chance of getting your views across by contacting them by email!!!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5324d

Yep, count me out - plain daft.

Jim Louten ● 5324d

Cllr Mahfouz, his fellow Cabinet members and Cllr Bell, keep coming up with the figure of £85M saving/cuts. Yet, at a Cabinet meeting, when confronted with the fact that their figures did not add up, they had to admit that the true figure should be just over £50M, the other £30M+ are needed in order for them to finance their own ‘pet’ schemes.But let’s get back to recycling. When Cllr Mahfouz was in opposition, he kept criticising the previous administration for setting a too low recycling target and challenging it to set the unrealistic target of 50%. Now that he is the portfolio holder, does he really think that the changes that he is going to propose are going to push recycling rates to the 50% target he was calling for then? By the way, I cannot find in any reports what target has been set for recycling rates this council year. Cllr Mahfouz, could you please enlighten us on this? I don’t believe any of us is opposed to change di per se, when changes offer the opportunity to improve and/or facilitate services or increase public participation. But I cannot see how these changes are going to benefit Ealing’s residents in the long run. In fact, the opposite will happen as residents will recycle less and less as they feel that their elected representatives are disengaging and ignoring them.

Rosa Popham ● 5324d

I shall go back to what I always used to do. Namely save up the garden waste in bags and when I am going past the tip in a car I shall dispose of the waste. Cheaper than £40 per annum and cheaper than the reduced rate.I compost a fair bit because I want it put back on the flower beds. The number of times I put out pink bags each year I can count on a few fingers. Perhaps I should have the odd bonfire again.The £1M is a pipe dream but if it is counted in full as a saving, against the £85M which I don't believe, then fine.I am against any wheely bins in the small streets of the residential areas. Vandals may or will play games with them and people may well put any old rubbish in them. If any wheely bins have to go in front gardens then they must be no larger than a dustbin, but I don't want a row of them. Much easier to have bags which can be wrapped away when not in use. I don't want Ealing Council to make the environs look untidy.

George Knox ● 5324d

I don't often take part in this sort of stuff but having heard locally (not just in Ealing but in Greenford and Southall, I felt compelled to have a look at what the fuss is about.The myopic vision of the proposals is quite remarkable. It demonstrates an inability of comprehending benefits, practicality and costs. I'm not a fan of political side taking but why is it that a Labour adminstration in this borough manages to make such a horlicks of things, especially when it comes to contracts and simple day to day things.As has already been mentioned, both administrations over nearly 30 years have managed to get things quite wrong, often glaringly so and often at huge expense. Poor decisions are something that any of us can make, but all too often the poor descisions are simply to spite an opposing party and are based on politics leaving common sense drifting in a row boat without oars or a rudder.The last administration managed to sort out the mess left by Cllr Cudmore ( a really nice chap but way out of his depth) and co. to a reasonable degree.In some cases (This area in particular) they managed to get years of poor and inadequate cleansing and refuse services to one of the best in London.It would be nice to think that the current administration could focus it's attention on the many other aspects of the borough that still need sorting and do as good a job at sorting those problems out, rather than unpicking what works well. Purely as seems more than obvious out of spite and partly because they lack the ability to tackle real problems.All too often we see things in this country that work OK messed up when politicians get their hands on them followed by huge expenditure to put right the mess caused.Every now and then something eventually gets put right. Only for it to get undone by whatever it is that goes on in their heads be it envy, spite, party politics or pure incompetence.Cllr Bassam Mahfouz may be well intended but his arguments reveal a real flaw in his understanding of society and how things work or not.His methods are not far short of blackmail and presumably he has resorted to that to cover for the fact that his proposals will probably end up saving nothing or even costing dear.NB 70% of councils have not moved to 'Forced wheelie bins'. That fact is untrue. 70% of councils who USE wheelie bins forced the issue. The proportion of wheelie bins overall is a much lower figure.Wheelie bis are a practical solution in rural areas and more modern suburban areas where the vast majority of residences have driveways, wider footpaths and grass verges. Things that most of this borough does not have.Wheelie bins have proved to be an expensive problem in denser urban areas with a high rate of insurance claims from damages and injuries caused by mishandling, and damage to private property including residential cars,Health issues have been raised from properties not being able to accomodate bins an hygenic envirionment. This will all have to be budgeted for.

Mark Kehoe ● 5324d

As night follows day we'll have an increase in landfill as residents will just put their garden rubbish into the black plastic sacks.Also all this talk about wheelie bins. Didn't we vote against them in a referendum in recent years?

Eric Alan Leach ● 5324d

I hope forum readers will not mind me posting on here but after reading Cllr Mahfouz's 'explanation' about the proposed changes to garden waste, it deserved a reply.The key fact around recycling is that the easier you make it for residents to participate in and that it is free at the point of use, the more residents will use it. Cllr Mahfouz does not need to look to other London boroughs as the history of the garden waste recycling collection here in Ealing already highlights this fact .Readers may recall that when garden waste recycling collection was first introduced it operated on a system of residents purchasing pink sacks at 50p a time. The abolition of this charge in 2006 had an immediate impact and usage by residents increased significantly (to the point where I recall we had to use issue white sacks for a few weeks because we could not replenish the stock of pink bags as quickly as they were going out the door).The introduction of the three pink reusable sacks in November 2007 removed the second 'hassle' (the need to keep ordering sacks) and once again the council saw a significant increase in the amount of recycling being presented by residents and the corresponding increase in the borough's recycling rates. The policy of recycling as much as possible at the doorstep together with the principle of it being free of charge at the point of delivery meant that in four years the borough recycling effectively doubled from 19% to 38%.The evidence of the past few years is therefore pretty clear and in my view any measures taken that puts barriers and/or charges in the way of residents will inevitably mean more residents disengaging from the process. Cllr Mahfouz raised the issue of finance and the need for him to find savings. There are three issues I believe that need mentioning. Firstly, the estimated income to be generated from the new charges (around £1 million) are in my view optimistic. The previous charging scheme (50p per bag) raised around £350,000 for the council and whilst this was some five years ago, it is difficult to see how this £1 million is achievable unless large assumptions have been made in terms of the number of residents who will simply switch to paying the £40 charge.Secondly, it is also not credible to argue that this will not have an affect upon the levels of flytipping around the borough. Some residents unfortunately will fly tip their garden waste to avoid charges and it will be the council who has to pick up the bill in terms of clearing this up. Thirdly, Cllr Mahfouz makes no comment in his statement about the effect on LATS charges. The proposal for garden waste charges as I understand it actually encompasses an overall reduction in the borough's recycling rate as a result of these changes. What will be the impact of this upon our landfill charges? As a whole this proposal may end up having savings being delivered in one place, but with higher costs coming out in another.Finally, for Cllr Mahfouz to suggest that it is either this option or a forced wheelie bin and fortnightly collection service is simply disingenous and I am afraid designed to detract attention away from an unpopular proposal by suggesting that instead we would have to have something else which he knows would be even more unpopular. My apologies for the length of this post and thanks for reading.

Jason Stacey ● 5324d

Am as shocked as everyone else that OUR council thinks this is a good use of our monies - the set up fees alone are ridiculous and we had a good company looking after us all and suddenly changed to another - why change one of the more successful activities of the council? I believe these charges will discourage many people from keeping their land clear and penalise the less well off and destroy our best claim to fame as being THE QUEEN OF THE SUBURBS - i.e. beautifully green.

Jools Lewis ● 5324d

Try reading the thread to see why this is simply not a good idea."The alternative to a return to a subscription based garden waste collection service would have been to introduce two forced wheelie bins to every household in this borough and fortnightly collection of rubbish and recycling."Nonsense, utter nonsense and you know it. The marginal saving of reintroduction of garden refuse charging (set-up costs, lower uptake against forecast revenue) in no way justifies such scaremongering. We are not imbiciles, please stop treating us as such. Go away, sharpen your pencil and stop blaming everyone else for Labour's thirteen years of profligacy and financial mismanagement.

Nigel Brooks ● 5325d

I would like to clarify a number of points about the proposals we are having to make around Garden waste collections.Indeed over the next few years we are having to find £85m of savings as a council. Many of these have already been agreed and not documented at all because they will not impact on anybody including £1m by bringing the highways team in house from an outside contractor and taking other similar steps to reduce our budget with back of house savings. The bold decision we took of re-tendering and bringing together of our clean and green and parks maintenance contracts has meant a saving of over £3m – triple what we had hoped and genuinely meant a ‘more for less’ gain. However, given the depth of the cuts from central government we are having to make decisions that we simply would rather we didn’t have to make. The re-introduction of charged garden waste is one such decision.Considering all of the options available we decided that this had less of an impact than the alternatives. Over 70% of local authorities up and down this country have already moved to a system of forced wheelie bins and rubbish and recycling on fortnightly collections. The alternative to a return to a subscription based garden waste collection service would have been to introduce two forced wheelie bins to every household in this borough and fortnightly collection of rubbish and recycling. Such a decision would have brought about similar savings but clearly this is unacceptable to us as a council and you as members of the public who we serve. Given this tough decision we wanted to minimise the impact and so the proposals include:• One wheelie bin or 3 hessian sacks (as with the current system) as an option for each subscribing household• Those households who currently have to use the biodegradable bags will continue to use these (i.e. on red routes)• Discounts will be available for older people and those on low incomes• Payments can be spread by direct debtAlternatives include taking it to recycling centre directly or composting what you can at home.The system has been in place in Richmond and Kingston and there have been no reports that I have heard of in those areas of being fly-tipping or bonfire hotspots and their charges are above what we propose.Clearly it is not a decision that anyone will welcome, but when you are facing cuts that run so deep there is bound to be an impact on services and whilst many are going to fortnightly collection of rubbish and recycling across London and the country, we are trying to minimise the impact of these cuts as much as we possibly can.If anyone has any queries you are always welcome to contact me directly.Yours sincerely,Cllr Bassam MahfouzEaling Cabinet member for Environment & Transporttwitter.com/BassamMahfouzbassam.mahfouz@ealing.gov.uk

Bassam Mahfouz ● 5325d

Yes, Hounslow's info is available as PDFs and can all be downloaded. This means you can easily print off a copy for a neighbour.Do we have different sizes of white plastics bag in Ealing? My new one seems a lot bigger than I remember the old one. I've never needed to put it out weekly. I prefer to put it out only when full as I've lost two in the past 12 monthsI squash all the milk containers and any large water ones that appear at home.

Philippa Bond ● 5326d

I have an office in Brentford and Hounslow more or less modelled their system on the Ealing one.Plastics and garden stuff alternate, using white and green bags. The wheely bin idea was dropped as most residents had nowhere to keep it.However the standard of service pales in comparison. The collections are erratic and sometimes days late or not at all.They issue a leaflet with a schedule of collections for the alternating items.Plastics though are so many that they need to be weekly. Garden stuff could be alternate with maybe weekly during growing season and late autumn

Michael Brandt ● 5326d

Most people don't put out a garden waste sack each week do they? However this is one aspect that the Council got right in having a weekly collection.It is a fortnightly collection in Hounslow alternating with plastics. People get confused as to whether it is plastics week or garden waste week. Most I suppose eventually get used to it. I think they usually look to see what the most reliable person in the street does but if that person gets it wrong that week every in the street does!

Philippa Bond ● 5327d

It is not recommended that you compost weeds either.

Graham Weeks ● 5327d

I don't support the reduction of the 50p tax level, and nor do I believe there are just a few hundred thousand in that tax category. More like a few hundred thousand honest enough to declare it. Otherwise we would not have so many buying £2m properties and then spending another £1m refitting it!As for my poor quote, this was exactly the argument used by the council to justify the CPZ and visitor permit hike. Well reported at the time, still difficult to understand. The assumption that anyone who lives in a house in Ealing is rich is an assumption too far. There was a time pre- management consultants and lawyers, when ordinary people in ordinary jobs, shop keepers, teachers, tube drivers lived in Ealing. Many of these people are still here albeit at the retirement end of the scale. They cannot be described as either rich or abundantly affluent.Social Services, housing are all paid for by council tax payers, how many of those same payers ever use a fraction of the services? Very few. It's there in case but I don't see too many complaining about paying for stuff they may never come to need.It all balances out. My garden is smaller than those of the local council estate. Are you saying that I produce more garden waste than them? Fact is most of us have small spaces and only so much can be recycled, composted and so on. Go over the top trying to accomodate all the waste and you are in the realms of vermin, wasp nests and disease, not really practicable when one lives in an urban area with surrounding neighbours who may have children, pets and so on. There is no need to come up with constructive alternatives. It ain't broke so it does not need fixing. This is one of the few areas that had finally been got right after 2 decades of poor contracts, deals and ultimately service. Ealing has come from one of the worst recycling boroughs to one of the best. Not perfect but better than most .Parking is the same. Promises and assurances were made but all have been deleted and the whole thing turned into a money making venture. Not what it was intended as. I know, I was there at the inception and did put in much constructive input with several others.

Michael Brandt ● 5327d

It is a nonsense to suggest -- as some have -- that we should compost everything from the garden. We have three compost generators, but much of what we put out each week can not be easily composted by the home owner because it has to be put through a commercial shredder first.

Ian D. Richardson ● 5327d

... of manifesto promises?

Graham Weeks ● 5327d

Fortnightly bonfires anyone?

Keith Iddon ● 5327d

We DID have biodegradable/reusable bags for garden waste and they were absolutely useless! They kept falling apart. I cdertainly wouldn't waste money buying them!As for Wheelie bins...where are we supposed to keep them?Right now we have 2 green boxes, 1 green food box, 2 white sacks for plastics, 3 pink garden bags, plus I have 1 metal dustbin. As someone mentioned earlier, at least the pink bags and white bags can be flattened and stored away. I don't want my property to look so untidy.,What about those people with even less space? Wheelie bins are OK if you have a driveway and somewhere to hide the thing! Also I believe they are difficult to clean properly, especially for those less able.I do hope this council listens to the residents for a change and scrap the idea of changing the scheme and adding an additional charge for the privilege!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5327d

Michael,I have never ever heard this Council talk about the poor subsidising the rich when it comes to waste collection. This was my thought.However, I can think of the present Government getting the poor to subsidise the rich as they are already discussing lowering the tax levy that the most wealthy pay by 2 or 3%. Would they like to discuss lowering the amount of tax that a basic rate taxpayer pays before they consider lowering the rate that the super rich pays? No, but as you say how can that be right?Incidentally, there is a strong correlation between affluence and recycling; the more space you have the more likely you are going to recycle - and, evidently of course, the more garden waste you produce. You say "Most who have a garden can compost or burn them at no expense to the tax payer". But they don't - they wanted it collected. If they can compost the Xmas tree, then why can't they compost the grass cuttings, dead heading, weeds etc? Parking and waste collections are two of the most emotive subjects that will get residents wanting to put their penny worth in! If a proposal is not to your liking, don't criticise and ridicule the arguments as "same old tosh". Rather than criticise, come up with some constructive alternatives.

Ben Owen ● 5327d

Much here on the chestnut wheeled out by the council about the poor subsidising the rich. Same old tosh as the feeble justification for parking permit hikes. Non car owners still get hit to have a car using visitor permits. Same difference only more money taken under false pretences.You can live in a council house and have a garden. Plenty do.Plenty of gardens in Southall, Greenford,Acton and Perivale all with the whole gamut of demographics. Lots of concreted over ones too, for cars that avoid paying for a zone permit. No mention of that one.Those who are living in flats of low value also pay less council tax than most houses as they are (or should be, in a lower band)That does not mean though that a lower band dwelling throws out less or more waste than a higher band one although the less space one has the more you have to get rid of.Christmas trees? Well that ought to be of most benefit to those who live in flats be they small or large, council or private.Most who have a garden can compost or burn them at no expense to the tax payer.Boxes and more boxes? Has it not dawned on these idiots that many do not have front garden space or side entrances or even wide hallways?We cannot get a bicycle in our hall so it has to sit outside and peridiocally get tampered with. At least the sacks can be folded or crumpled up and kept out of the way till needed.Is there a prerequisite for a Labour administration to appear clueless and stupid? It really should not be alarmingly so. Did somebody actually get paid to come up with this wisdom? I see a cost saving already.

Michael Brandt ● 5327d

i suppose that will mean more of us driving up to the depot.

Peter Chadburn ● 5327d

The proposed changes to the garden recycling arrangements would be totally counter-productive and to the detriment of the borough as a whole. The proposals must be cancelled.

Ian D. Richardson ● 5327d

Agreed. What will happen now is:* increase in fly-tipping (the council seems to be in denial about this)* polluting trips to the tip in a car* garden waste put in the general wastewhich all results in ...* less revenue than they expect.Then, typical of this Labour council, they then have to decide what to do, and come to the conclusion that they will punish people via fines if they don't do what they are told.The current system works well. It doesn't say much for the current council negotiation skills to keep the good value we are getting today.The justification is that it is unfair to subsidise the collection if you don't have a garden. Fine then - then I don't drive into Southall, so want no part of paying the £5 million for a unneeded parking lot Labour is planning to build that I would never use. And as another forum poster has said ... I don't have children, so count me out of the education precept.

MIchael Cass ● 5327d

We have never really had enough information on the plasticscollection - on what exactly happens to it, how much is really recycled and how much is just (hopefully) diverted from landfill. I'd like to hear that the plastic bottles are recycled into new bottles. It would be good to hear it was closed loop on this.Plastics give out a lot of energy when burned so I always suspected that it would be used as fuel in the new efw facility that there was the court case between LBE and Ken Livingstone over. Whatever.We so depend on there being good contracts in place for our 'recycling'. Plastic is horrible stuff and the pictures of our plastic waste being sorted and burned and re-processed in the third world where there are obviously few regulations in place to protect the local people are awful. China stopped manufacturing carrier bags for the duration of the Olympics. There is terrible pollution. We need to reduce and refuse all unnecessary packaging. We didn't ask for it; we don't want it - we just didn't complain about its creeping increase. The focus should NOT be on it being used to stack well and advertise well. A lot of it IS unnecessary.I'm happy with the white bag; we don't put it out every week. We flatten any milk containers. However we also get milk in reusable returnable glass bottles from the milkman and I don't believe this is necessarily more expensive. You save money when you go to the supermarket less often... Milk is being sold as a loss leader in the supermarkets to get you to go there often and buy more. (Notice the way you will have to cross the whole supermarket to find it being tempted at every turn.)Residents need to be encouraged to reduce the amount of waste they make overall and not just recycle more. Then think about reduction of volume ie squash the plastic bottles and crush the cans. Are the lids wanted or not? If wanted should they be on the bottles or not? The sorting and recycling of these things has been evolving. It is time it was all updated. It doesn't confuse people if things change especially if the reason is explained and it is logical. It is more difficult when it is not clear.I still don't know how you fill a white plastics bag each week. Perhaps we need some high profile people to be interviewed and shown how to reduce their waste but maybe it is Julian Bell or Bassam Mahfouz we should put on the spot!!

Philippa Bond ● 5327d

If they start charging 'extra' for black rubbish sack collections then fly tipping will increase. People will only recycle if it's easy - sad but true. Why break what isn't broken. The current system is easy and works really well. I often hear that recycling isn't as good as we think it is...i.e. not so environmentally friendly. I have no knowledge of the subject - is this true?

Penny Crocker ● 5327d

It looks as though this administration thinks that if residents were prepared to pay for the ‘pink bags’ when they previously were in control of the council, then now we would not mind having to pay again for having our garden waste collected. What they have forgotten is that all recycling rates, and not just that for garden waste, went up considerably once the charge on the pink bags was scrapped by the Conservative administration as more and more people responded positively to our efforts to get more waste recycled and less waste put into the black bag. Reading the council report on this, Item 12 on the Cabinet agenda – page 2 – it is also stated that the administration is proposing spending £160K “for the purchase of plastic containment boxes”. Does this mean that they are intending to replace the large and efficient, easy to carry white sacks with plastic boxes, like the ones we now use for paper, glass, etc.? Would they come with a lid as to stop light plastic items flying away and litter our gardens/streets in windy condition? Finally, would these be big enough to accommodate large households’ need? Our sack, at the moment, gets filled to the brim on a weekly basis just like most of the others we see walking down our roads on collection day. There is no way that we would be able to fit everything into one box. This means that either most of us will need more than one container or, most likely, we will end up putting the majority of our plastic back into the black bags as there is a limit as to how many containers one can store. What would this do to the borough recycling rates and ultimately to us residents? What I fear is that if recycling rates drop, Labour will either re-coup the money that the council has to pay for the disposal of our general waste and/or associated fines through higher council rates or will start charging residents for the amount of waste in our black bags.

Rosa Popham ● 5327d

I would rather not pay in my Council Tax for a Christmas tree collection. I think it is a nice gesture to collect them but I don't understand how people can think of bringing them home themselves without planning how to dispose of them and I don't think this should be encouraged. The arrangements for collection and chipping them in the parks with the family walking them there or neighbours and friends helping makes for good community spirit. Many people did this before the Council collection. They stopped when this was added free and the Council then gave themselves another cost. It just added to the selfish gotta-have-it-grab-it-and-go culture.

Philippa Bond ● 5327d

There are plenty of low income families trapped in large properties and already effectively subsidising the feckless non-recyclers with higher Council Tax payments.The point about not having a garden is though pretty fatuous. Are you saying that because I do not have school age children that I should be able to withhold the education precept within my Council Tax?

Nigel Brooks ● 5327d

Over the course of a year, I reckon I only use the garden waste collection service once a month. Of course, I would be upset at having to fork out an extra £40 per year, but only because I've become so used to having it collected as part of my Council Tax.Like David, if charges were imposed, I would definitely want to join forces with my neighbour(s) and go halves, thirds or even quarters! Sorting out whose garden the bin is kept in would be harder to resolve. If others had the same idea then potentially the amount of garden waste collected from residents would be the same, but the amount brought in would be less than forecasted. But: if Council Tax was put up by £40 per year (or £3.30 per month) and we weren't told it was to cover the cost of collecting garden waste would be so upset about the rise?But more importantly, should those on lower incomes be subsidising the better off? If you were to ask those who don't have access to a garden whether they would prefer to have council tax frozen for another year, and for bin and recycling collections to continue on a weekly basis free, provided that £40 would be needed to be collected from those who thave their garden waste collected for free then it is fairly obvious what the answer will be. Do those who don't have gardens have a say, a voice, a vote?And it definitely won't affect recycling rates of cardboard, plastic etc since we have got into the habit of doing this already.

Ben Owen ● 5327d

This has to be the biggest Conservative vote winner since the tram. Mind you they lost my vote with the Perivale speed bumps.I am seriously considering standing on a ban the bumps ticket at the next election. BTW can a 20 mph zone be legally enforcible when all you have is one sign painted on the road when entering the benighted zone?

Graham Weeks ● 5328d

The present system works extremely well and did so since it was set up by the previous administration.Surely it is a huge backward step to change this system and start charging for the privilege of recycling garden waste?I can forsee MORE rubbish being flytipped all over the place.Back to the drawing board Councillors - you have got this one WRONG!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5328d

Sometimes it just amazes me how short sighted or just plain bent they can be. We need stop this. They just keep on lying.Please tell me which councilors have shares in a wheelie bin company.

Kathy Murch ● 5328d

That figure assumes that the percentage of use will remain the same which of course it will not. People will go back to having bonfires, dumping and mixing it in with food waste and driving it to the dump.Put a price on the environmental cost and they will probably end up with a whopping fine for breaching the CO2 quota.They will end up shelling out in excess of £200,000 in damages to property vehicles etc which has risen in all wheelie bin districts that do not have streets with driveways and grass verges.Er how many streets in Ealing borough (not just Ealing, have grass verges and wide driveways?)Idiots for being gullible enough for even considering this, wholly impractical.

Michael Brandt ● 5328d

"Overall the move will rake in £1.1 million per annum although it will cost £720K to set up".I'd be interested to know how they have assessed likely take up. If people were to split the £40 charge with a neighbour and shared a bin, economic viability could be marginal. And if you can cancel your 'subscription' during the winter that would also scupper things. Hmmmm....

David Whitelam ● 5328d

Why would garden waste need to be in a wheelie bin anyway?We don't have room for one for residual waste. What we need is attention paid to making sure that the people who need help organising and separating their waste get it; new movers-in get information and equipment - landlords and estate agents should take some responsibility and so should universities/colleges; people who put their waste out too early and unprotected and on the pavement are warned; planning permission should include amenity space for bins which must be maintained...Those of us who make best use of the Council facilities provided for waste and recycling now have what has become an increasingly good system.

Philippa Bond ● 5328d

I really do not understand the need for change and don't accept 'budget cutbacks' which 'Bell's Buffoons' attempt to use to justify every service cut or price increase - a tip we are tired of the same old song Julian!I have become a recycling convert as the service has been, for the past few years, excellent. My household of four adults now has less than one black bag of refuse every couple of weeks. The streets are swept on collection day and all seems to be well co-ordinated.Why there is even considered a need fro such a retrograde step as weekly charged collections baffles me.

Nigel Brooks ● 5328d

I agree with all that's said here.This does seem like a backwards step.I've found the waste collection and recycling collection service in recent years to have been excellent and it's even improved even more recently.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5328d

Having moved from Hammersmith I feel able to confidently predict what will happen if a fee is introduced for garden waste. The new Tory council in Hammersmith & Fulham came into power and decided that as their contribution to rationalising services, instead of providing compostable bags that could be filled with garden waste for a weekly collection, householders would have to register and buy garden waste bags so that collections would be made at their particular address. Most people in the borough don't have enough garden waste to warrant fortnightly let alone weekly collections (which were anyway erratic) so opted to put their garden waste in the usual black bags. Within 2 years collection of garden waste ceased totally. And doubtless the number and size of black bags increased to match the previous volume of garden wsate bags.

Sue Rowe ● 5328d

Will this £40 actually be paying for it? Many people just won't use it. It may well be needed to pay the extra landfill charges. There are alternatives. I wish Ealing would subsidise wormeries as well as compost bins (are they still)?In Devon I noticed that people started putting their garden waste in the new wheelie bins instead of composting it as they always had in the past. I bet that change in behaviour increased the recycling rate. Generally there's more space for wheelie bins there. They are though unnecessarily large, smelly, ensure long noisy collections and do nothing to encourage a reduction in waste.

Philippa Bond ● 5328d

People will just start dumping stuff all over the place. I shan't be paying it. I hardly use the service.

Penny Crocker ● 5328d

Surely the compost that the Council produces from our garden waste is used in local parks and green spaces, therefore saving the Council having to buy compost?The current system works - why change it? I live in a mid-terrace house and cannot have a wheelie bin and I absolutely refuse to pay £20 for 25 bags - if they're anything like the bags used previously then they'll be quite small and it'll cost me a fortune, on top of the £40 a year.They must be joking!

Una Dennedy ● 5328d

After decades of average to poor waste collection services in this borough under both adminstrations, the last one finally got it right and it is the best it's ever been in both terms of efficiency and has come on leaps and bounds on recycling.This adminsistration seems to be short on understanding and creativity and is going down the road of methods that have failure stamped all over them.Wheely bins in the types of streets that much of this borough is made up of will be a disaster.These bins constantly damage parked vehicles, block roadways and paths during collections and are a mess.Insurance claims in some boroughs are huge from constant damage caused by them being mishandled by both operatives and residents.They smell and many residents simply never clean them as many simply do not have the facility to do so.The present system works, better than it has for 20 years so why tamper with it.Bunch of idiots in charge it seems who will end up costing us dear from losses incurred from the things they are too dense to have even thought about

Michael Brandt ● 5328d

That would explain the 'there's a manufacturing problem with replacement pink sacks' response I got when I tried to order a new one back in June.Oh well, more carbon-guzzling trips to Greenford tip it is then.A nominal profit and residents hacked-off again; another win:win solution from "Bell's Buffoons"

Nigel Brooks ● 5328d