Forum Topic

Sentencing those involved in the riots

Clegg says "We are going to take our time to look at this, but of course you need to be proportional, of course you need to be careful, or course you don’t want to create unintended consequences where actually the taxpayer ends up giving more, or we create more social problems of problems of law and order"This morning I sat in the public gallery of Ealing Magistrates Court listening to a case relating to the riots in Ealing. A 25yr old appeared on a video link from prison for shoplifting. He had a job as a dustman (pay slip produced) which was being kept vacant for him for a limited time. He had mild learning difficulties (supporting statement from his GP and LB Ealing) and no previous convictions. His solicitor argued quite forcefully that he was unlikely to committ further offences. His learning difficulties caused him to be easily led. The bench retired for 15 minutes to discuss the case. In the adjournement I heard the mother say to his solicitor to tell him that if he does get bail to wait at the prison as she will come and pick up from there. The Chair then said that after presiding over the case, the bench had decided against bail only because his offence was likely to result in custody. What an outrage.The tax payer will end up paying more. The man will lose his job, his family and perhaps housing. He had no previous convictions.  All because of sentencing guidelines.

Ben Owen ● 5350d42 Comments

Former BBC Watchdog and Holiday reporter Ashley Blake, jailed for attacking youths who attacked his restaurant,  said this morning on BBC1 TV:-“I was gobsmacked by how much money was wasted by sending me to jail,” It cost £38,000 to keep me in prison for nine months and one day”.“Far too many people are being sentenced for crimes which don’t warrant imprisonment.“Of course murderers, rapists and paedophiles have to be locked away as they’re a danger to the public – but I’m not.“I don’t need rehabilitation, which doesn’t work anyway. Inmates can come out hardened criminals, better equipped with the knowledge to re-offend.“I learned how I could burgle a house, the best way to cultivate marijuana, organise an armed robbery, and how to distribute class A drugs.“There are so many alternative ways of punishing me whereby I could give something back. They could have used my skills for the benefit of the community, sending me into youth clubs to help them write, or make films.“Less-educated offenders could be made to clean up canals or pick up litter.”

Mark Law ● 5332d

GeorgeWe will have to agree to disagree. A few years back, we used the community payback to clear an overgwon area on Tennyson road. I have to say that the people I met on it did not seem to feel greatly inconvenienced by what they were asked to do because they did very little. This might not be the case on most community payback schemes, maybe they work harder on others. From the ocnversations I had with them, this was a slap on the wrist which they would soon forget. Of course it has a place, but so do prisons. Some of the sentences being handed out mow may seem extreme, but you will also find some that are pathetic. The message needs to go out to criminals that there are consequences. Those people who looted in Ealing are criminals George. Even if they were just walking home froma night out, and went into one of the vandalised shops to nick a mobile phone, that makes them a criminal. If i can get fined £55 for parking in a taxi rank at 10pm on a Thursday night in Greenford Broadway, then I hope that someone who riots and loots is going to be treated a little more harshly. The police need also to know that when they catch someone, that criminal will be punished. When I talk to police you can pick up from them how pathetic they think some of the sentences are. I'm sure it affects how motivated some of them are. These are my experiences George, which help to form my opinions. You cleraly have had different experiences to mine.

Colm Costello ● 5332d

ColmGiving out the appropriate punishment is a technical business for the courts and I am not going to get into specific cases where neither I nor you know all the minute detail. Of course people should be punished for wrecking.Prison for you may be a deterrent but not for all. Some people feel safer in prison and they get looked after - to an extent. But having your free time taken away from you over a long period is really annoying. And if you have to work at something to discharge your community service punishment, then that also is a real chore that cushy life in prison does not include. Furthermore by having to do Community Service means that you may learn a skill and have time to reflect on how to better yourself, not to mention that the community benefits. Other than the streets being safer imprisoning someone does not give anything back to the community. As a member of the Tory party which wants to cut everything in sight I am surprised that the financial benefits of Community Service versus the costs of prison do not appeal to you.Have you any idea how much it costs to build a prison and how much it costs to run? Being a cutter what would be your alternatives?Community Service probaly does work for some. But you have not said why you think it does not. Neither have you said where it could be improved.You said I am a character. OK then. I cannot punish you for supporting a venture which mainly was a complete waste of tax payer's money. But if I could then I would have you walk over that slight hump in the the Uxbridge Road at Church Road with a bright pink jacket saying Community Service Timer. You would do that for three hours per day without a mobile 90 minutes in the morning and 90 minutes during the evening - making you very late for Council meetings. You would be tagged to prevent you from absconding. You would do that for 6 months regardless of weather. If you were ill, then the number of days you were off would be doubled and added to the 6 month period. Your attendance would be monitored by a charity and or the local community. A photo of you walking would appear in the Press.The benefit to the community would be that you would think more carefully about how our taxes are spent. Also you would think to have the specification of work checked before the job was done.We now have the slight hump which makes little difference, and it is history, and I don't care about it anymore. I am not going to get into an argument with you over something which has been done.I simply make the point that Community Service probably would work because you could not bear the day by day public humiliation or tbe barriers to delivering a busy Councillor service. Sending you to prison might lead you to subsequent nefarious activities and that would be worse.To revert to a more serious level, if you had wrecked a shop in Hanwell I would have you cleaning shop windows and painting, under supervision, window frames in the High Street to cheer the place up.

George Knox ● 5333d

Colm,Nice bloke that you are, I'm afraid that you are talking absolute garbage! If the only reason for you not breaking the law is the shame of going to prison, it is not a view held by many others. I don't have any reason to be fearful about going to prison. The reason why I don't fear prison is because I dont break the law, and the same is probably true for you. I know it is wrong to break the law so I don't. It is not prison that stops me breaking the law, but the law itself.But, finally, you tell us that if you were given a CHOICE of a six month community sentence (harder) or a one month prison sentence (easier) you would choose the community sentence. Nobody is given a choice at the time of sentencing, so it is all down to the judge on the day.  The problem is that Community Sentences have not been handed out by judges, because the Tories like to believe they dont work. When a community sentence would work perfectly work as a punishment, and all the stats show that Community Service has less reoffending than a prison sentence of the same period, the Tories are pushing to send people to prison.

Ben Owen ● 5333d

GeorgeYou are a character, that's for sure. As an elected councillor, I have a mandate. Are you suggesting the looters who have wrecked the livelihoods of some of our traders in ealing had a mandate to do that. I don't remember that election or referendum. What kind of sentence do you think should be given to the people who wrecked that grocery store in Ealing and robbed that family in yesterdays Gazette of their livelihood.  How can you ask me what is wrong with community sentences, then in the very next sentence say that community service should be given powers so that it REALLY works. Clearly even you think it doesn't work.Finally George, If i did something wrong and I was given a choice between community service over a 6 month period and a 1 month prison sentence, I would choose community service everytime. The shame of going to prison is a deterrant and keeps me and many others on the straight and narrow. You need to look at the impact that prison has on people who don't commit crime George. It is one of the main reasons people don't commit crime, and you want fewer of them.

Colm Costello ● 5334d

All good points Mark.I cannot believe that Colm just wants to lock them all up and build more prisons. How does he think we can afford them plus the additional revenue costs of keeping even greater numbers inside - that is during a financial crisis.Perhaps he should be punished for some political decision which many opposed and be given a long term outdoor activity including an order not to use a mobile phone which would prevent him from blogging for longer than he would wish; which also would prevent him from doing his active work as a councillor. That would be far more telling than a short few weeks in a cell. He should tell us why Community service does not work for him.On a more serious note, as I have said community service in its broad sense should be given powers so that it really does work.

George Knox ● 5334d

Colm, You can't be serious! I have not picked an extreme example. I am only reporting on the three cases I saw in Ealing Magistrates Court that day. Case 1 - £40,000 fraud - unconditional bail (is this an extreme example?)Case 2 - uninsured driver driving recklessly and dangerously through Copley Close, Westcott Crescent, Homefarm Road at 70mph failing to stop in a police chase - unconditional bail (is this an extreme example?)Case 3 - as discussed. I did answer your point about exaggerating. To be clear, he was charged by THE POLICE for shoplifting alcohol and fags. That is all - that is what he was charged with.Now, I only based his case on what I heard and from what the bench had to make their decision from. There is nothing else to say, because I have told you everything there is for you to need to know. "The solution is not to send fewer people to prison because they are overcrowded, the solution is to provide more capacity". Jeez - Michael Howard would be proud of you for that!Every week we cram hundreds more into overcrowded prisons leaving them unchanged because there aren't the courses available for them to change their habits. The answer from anyone who knows about prisons is not to build more failing jails, but get rid of these stupid short sentences that help nobody.You didnt say how long you wanted this guy to be held in prison for him to be punished for his crime.  This Government talks about prison as a place of rehabilitation. You are not interested one bit about rehabilitation; instead like the present Government it is all about punishment and retribution. Your point about impact of prisons was a strange one. You asked "what impact does prison have on those that don't commit crimes?" None. Prison only impacts those who do commit crimes.The vast majority of us do not break the law, not because we are fearful of being sent to prison, but because we know what is right and what is wrong. We know it is wrong to break the law so we dont do it.Here, Colm, we are discussing how to punish people effectively for their crimes. Keep to the topic please.And, finally, dont cycle through pelican lights, or inadvertently speed or you might be up before me. Instead of sending you to prison, I will punish you by making you watch a video of Man Utd's drubbing of Arsenal TWELVE TIMES! (Eighteen hours of Community Work!) That will teach you!And for the rest of you I am, like Colm, an Arsenal fan! 

Ben Owen ● 5336d

There does appear to be a lot of muddle in some of the opinions expressed above.1. this is not "gang vs Police warfare". 2. In Tottenham, the local Police Commander has accepted that his force would allow a certain amount of 'low level' drug trading to go on provided no gang members took on the Police (this was after an incident when a gang member pointed a handgun at an officer's face). He has conceded this to be the case.2. Gangs do not want the Police anywhere near their area of operations. The rioting and looting did significant harm to their trade and they wanted it to stop.3. Putting a looter in jail is not the answer for all the reasons laid out above. This was a one-off incident, it costs a lot of money to put the offenders in prison, many will lose their jobs/income and may resort to crime as a result, prison puts the convicted in touch with a whole network of more hardened and dangerous criminals, and even some of the more hardline posters above have conceded that restorative justice - being made to face the victims (shopkeepers and sole traders) and learn about the real harm inflicted on their families is far more useful. Getting them to clean up and repair the mess would be a positive start. Community sentences.3. There is no evidence At ALL that Ealing has the sort of problems associated with organised youth gangs that other areas of London are blighted with. The problem on the Monday night arose as a result of an operational mistake by the Police in sending officers out of the Borough to other areas, allowing violent looters to come into Ealing from outside (the address details of those charged confirm this) for what they thought would be a pretty free run at some defenceless and attractive (to them) businesses - electronic goods and clothing stores.4. As the perpertrators initially went unchallenged by the local (now under-manned) police force, they and some hangers-on got over-excited and went on a more wanton orgy of vandalism and violence.I for one will feel no sense of satisfaction or that justice has been done if the convicted are left to sit in a prison cell which I pay for, whilst the Council struggles to get Ealing back on its feet (which again, I will have to pay for).

Mark Law ● 5336d

Ben #You have picked an extreme example and want to change the system on an example that you have selected. You haven't responded to the suggestion that i pointed to in my earlier posting. Might he be exagerating, might he reoffend because he is easily led. You have presented his case as gospel. From what you have said it sounds very harsh, but that is your take on what you saw. Clearly the judge saw it another way. Become a magistrate if you think you can do better Ben. It's not impossible to become one. As far as prison not working. You and i have discussed this before. It clearly fails a lot of people in prison, more places are needed to reduce overcrowding which results in people being moved from one prison to another so they don't get to finish the reform course they start and lose faith. The solution is not to send fewer people to prison because they are overcrowded, the solution is to provide more capacity. You don't seem to take into account the impact prison has on people who don't commit crimes, you only talk about the impact it has on prisoners or prison officers. One of the reasons I don't commit crimes and lots others don't because we are fearful of being sent to prison. So it works in a way that you seem to ignore.

Colm Costello ● 5336d

Colm,My jaw dropped at your response so I read it again and then again. Your response sounded like prison is the only option. Ouch! Tory thinking at its worst.First and foremost...how long would you like him to serve in prison?  As this has got nothing to do with what the guy said when he was on trial. This is an issue of the evidence that was presented to the magistrates and how they then judged from what they had heard that the best way to punish him was to refuse him bail owing to sentencing guidelines.Of course, this guy should be punished. I am sure he accepts that he deserves to be punished - and so he should. That is not in question.But, to keep this guy in prison at a cost of £130 per day to the taxpayer is plainly stupid. It is grotesque. He would be better punished, say, by being 20 hours of Community Service, where he can redeem himself by giving back to the community from where he stole from. Prisoners and prison staff agree that community sentences are harder to serve than prison sentences, since the sentence is served over a longer period of time. I don't think this guy will think of it as a soft touch by being given a community sentence.Fine the bloke the equivalent of the cost of keeping him in prison, but filling up our prisons with people like this leads to overcrowding and is one of the main reasons why prison fails most prisoners. Why? Because there are not enough resources for prison staff to work with the growing number of prisoners. Finally, when would you feel it appropriate for someone to be given a community sentence rather than a prison sentence? In your response, describe the offence that they are on trial for.

Ben Owen ● 5336d

BenThis sounds like a sad and extreme case if true. I don't question your honesty as I know you and believe you. I do question the honesty of the guy on trial. You have presented his case as fact. They may be exagerating. It happens sometimes in court. You also say that the solicitor said he is unlikely to offend again but then go on to say he is easily led. The problem here seems to be as it was with the riots that people commit a crime giving no regard to the consequences to the victim of that crime, then turn up in court and say, if you punish me, i will suffer a consequence so you mustn't punish me. The solution is to punish people who commit crimes and send a message out there to people that if you get caught, you will be punished. If we want our judges and police to act like social workers, the most cynical people in society will take complete advantage of that, like they did during the riots.

Colm Costello ● 5337d

"How did the research deal with the possibility that prisoners were not telling the truth?"The majority of people who seem to think that community service is seen as a light touch are right - wing. Clearly, you don't believe the study, but I don't know if this has anything to do with the influence of Cameron and his cronies!Over a third of the interviews conducted were with prison officers and they should know better than you and I whether prison works.If a youngster told you that there is no point going to school, would that change your opinion on sending him or her to school?

Ben Owen ● 5337d

Ben, do you have to be right-wing to think community service is seen as a light touch?  I'm only going by what I hear youngsters themselves say. Maybe they'll be wiser after the event. Obviously they haven't heard about the Imperial research.  Btw, How did the research deal with the possibility that prisoners were not telling the truth?

Barbara Yerolemou ● 5337d

Ref: "deprived areas where criminals breed?".Does this statement imply that this is an ECONOMIC issue above all else? (I think it certainly is). And so harsh(er) prison sentences (as advocated above) are not really the answer or solution, are they?And "breed"? Was that an unfortunate slip of the pen? I hope so.

Mark Law ● 5337d

Tony, you and I can chew this over til we are the only people left in the pub, and the barstaff are rolling their eyes.  I can't convince you; you can't convince me.  Let's agree to differ.

Barbara Yerolemou ● 5339d

Re " after the shooting of the man in Tottenham that they are not to be messed with.  "          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Barbara, I would like to think you are right but why should  people in Ealing and elsewhere in London and the rest of the country , riot because of something that happened unassociated with them or their area. There must have been some coordinating purpose and organisers, question is who and why. That's the nub, imo. As time progresses I think this Govt. will find opposition to their plans in unexpected ways. Gasng warfare will be a problem, that's for sure but I doubt if it will manifest itself in the looting of shops etc.

Tony Price ● 5339d

Barbara, why do you believe "community service is seen as a light touch".  Collaboration between the Howard League for Penal Reform and the Prison Governors' Association revealed that prisoners prefer to do a short sentence than complete a community sentence because they consider it easier! Prison, in the eyes of the offender, is the lighter touch!The study was carried out by Dr. Julie Trebilock of Imperial College and was based on 44 interviews with inmates serving 12 months or less and 25 members of staff.It demostrated that some felt community sentences were HARDER to complete than short sentences because of the need to keep appointments and the length of time which community sentences are completed.  They felt that it was too easy to breach a community service sentence and therefore they stated that they prefered a short prison sentence. So, who is considering it to be a light touch? The right - wing public making judgments or the actual people serving the sentence. Prison fails to change people and fails to provide lasting solutions to victims. On the other hand, community sentences can and do achieve more positive outcomes as they FORCE people to understand the horrors of their crime, and at the same time do something to REPAIR the damage done. They can give back to the community.I hope this gives you a different perspective on how we punish people and stops you thinking that I am too liberal or soft on cime.

Ben Owen ● 5339d

Well Tony respectfully we have to agree to differ.  I believe, this is gang on police war.  The gangs are trying to show the police after the shooting of the man in Tottenham that they are not to be messed with.  That's why the attack Ealing to show that they can and the Police are unprepared.  Sadly a lot of juveniles get caught up in this.  During my Mayoral year  (I bet you were waiting for me to say that) I met with many young people from problem areas  and their biggest fear were local gangs.  That's my experience.

Barbara Yerolemou ● 5339d

Re  " And Tony I dont think these are anarchists. "          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I am sure I read somewhere the riots in Ealing were organised by persons 30+ miles away. If so, it is logical they would not pick on Ealing alone but many more areas, in fact they may have organised the whole blessed lot?. And IF they are organisers of such magnitude, I doubt their intent is one of looting ( nothing in it for them ) but if to cause  social unrest etc, then yes, THAT  could well be the reason, so I think we may well have organistions whose intent is more political and using the rioters as their pawns, who because of their nature, are only too glad to do the organisers' bidding. London is also being broken down into gangs and gang warfare. Something our Police are not really geared up for but they're gonna have to learn pdq, sadly. Much will be hidden under the carpet, news will be suppressed or distorted, there are organs well versed in those arts,and not too far from here!. Some members of the media are a tad more forthright, The Telegraph for example.

Tony Price ● 5339d

Thank you Tony and Ben.  Actually I've heard two things which make me feel more satisfied that justice will be done which is::1.  Dominic Grieves saying that perhaps passports will be taken away from some lawbreakers so that they do their community service and dont just disappear.  (Dont know how many offenders have passports though).2.  Someone on the radio saying that sentences should be as "normal" for first time offenders but that they are to keep their noses clean for 5 years.  If they offend again then they will be punished harder.Added to this, I would also like to see offenders meet with their victims and try and recompense them in some way.What do you think of those points put together and used to punish first time offenders, Ben?  As for hardened or repeat offenders.  I take your point about prisons but community service is seen as a light touch.  It hasn't helped so far has it despite governments spending a fortune to help deprived areas where criminals breed?  And Tony I dont think these are anarchists.  There is a core of criminals with an entourage of petty criminals and weak individuals.  Criminals have been with us since recorded history and no doubt always will.  The sooner we find habitable planets and shift them out, the better but until then sadly we have to minimise the damage they can do - that's my opinion, anyway.

Barbara Yerolemou ● 5339d

"As for the sentences, they must be harsh"Seven in ten charged with riot related offences will get a custodial sentence compared to 1 in 10 those who committed a serious offences last year. Riots on the streets will lead to riots in prisons with assaults on prison staff and inmates. Already there have been riots at Coldingley prison, near Woking,(inmates on the roof), Feltham Young Offenders (smashing up the gym) and Styal Prison in Cheshire, which alreasdy has the highest suicidal rate of any prison in the country). Putting people behind bars only increases the chance that they will reoffend again. Sending people to prison is not the answer to learn how to be law abiding citizen, especially when they are going to have to share a cell with a bloke who is in for something far more serious as a result of running out of accomodation.Community sentences do work. They have the multiple benefits of punishment, keeping people in work and doing something that has a wider benefit of giving something back to the community - so long as they are not going to be painting Jacqui Smith's luxury house.

Ben Owen ● 5339d

Re  "  If sentences arent harsh, it will be a worse situation next time."      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      exactly, I cannot forgive or forget what was done to SEBA, owned and run so well for almost 40 years  by a gentleman  who served us well, and to have all those years of hard work  destroyed in one night of organised looting and terror is unforgiveable. As for the sentences, they must be harsh but be of fair comparison one with another, and not some of the strange ones we have seen or heard about. That all the riots etc were organised mainly from persons outwith each area is also of great concern, and  something the Govt. should look into intensely and publicly name the persons and especially the organisations they work for. Anarchists no doubt,  using the rioters as pawns in their wider plans.

Tony Price ● 5340d

Well next time others thinking of being silly may just walk away.  I take your point that the real thugs may not be caught but they may not have so much cover if there are no silly people around.  I just cant get over the fact that innocent people lost everything and the psychological damage to them may never be repaired. If sentences arent harsh, it will be a worse situation next time.

Barbara Yerolemou ● 5341d

The real essence is that the gangsters need to be dealt with as they thought they could put the police on the backfoot. unfortunately there may be silly people caught up in the moment bon cctv who will get hammered whilst the masked thugs with petrol bombs go free.

Peter Chadburn ● 5341d

Thugs ran into Fatboys restaurant on Haven Green smashing the place.  Fortunately the staff managed to get customers out the back.  The thugs helped themselves to cash in the till and to alcohol from the bar.  They then took chairs with which to smash into Tesco's next door and to loot it.  Anyone who then follows them even if it's to take a packet of chewing gum or water condones the crime.  A man was killed in Ealing for ONLY trying to move a burning bin.  A shop was burnt; tenants are homeless; shopkeepers and restaurants, struggling as they are, may have to go out of business. In my opinion, a message has to go out - if you are involved in looting and riots, you will be punished.  Next time perhaps onlookers will move away and go home.  As for making parents responsible - yes it's tough when as Mark says you cant always know what your children are up to and perhaps they are out of control, but maybe just maybe if a potential criminal thinks that through his/her actions, their mother and siblings will lose their home, they may think again.  Finally, I think this is a gang vs police war.  The police shot a gang member in Tottenham and the gangs are showing the police that they can cause a lot of trouble.  In other words the police are to keep out of gangs' territory and business.  That's why it's even more important for passers-by not to get swept up in the excitement of looting, we 're just making the gangs stronger.

Barbara Yerolemou ● 5341d

A gentleman, thank you and no sleight was taken.Actually, I 'confessed' after my first illicit cigarette and then took over thirty years to stop smoking :-)

Nigel Brooks ● 5344d

If more people posted like your last post this would be an improved forum.

Graham Weeks ● 5345d

I wish to apologise for the rather aggressive and somewhat personal tone of the note above.It was rather intemperate of me and it won't happen again.I'm sorry.

Mark Law ● 5345d

"not something I would either advocate or wish to see"- so why make the observation. Bizzare."badge of honour"- absurd. People do not want nor take any pride in having a criminal record. Especially for smashing a plate glass window. Ask David Cameron. (who scarpered to avoid getting pinched!)."If you don't know what your kids are doing .."NO-ONE knows where their children are or what they are doing ALL of the time. It's very niave to think they do - thank you. (I'm sure even you puffed an illicit cigarette/consumed alcohol before you attained the legal ages of 16/18). So, please, let's be more measured and sensible here.As stated above, some (but only some) of the sentences seem completely out of proportion with the crimes and will not achieve the desired results.Let's also not fall into the trap of thinking things were all so much better in the past - they weren't. We have always suffered from riot and disorder, lack of genteel behaviour, theft, hooliganism and so on.These days, with 24-hour rolling news and communications technology, it is thrust into our faces with both regularity and in graphic detail.Today, we worry about it more because as a country, we feel the decline in our status as a world power, more  intense economic competition, and have a generally (better) educated population.We have a more egaletarian outlook and greater ambition in general. We want to see opportunity for all.Events such as these really shake all of us to the core, but hanging and flogging the perpetrators is (and never was) the answer.I think an hour spent in front of the shopkeepers listening to what they have done to their families and livelihoods would be far better as restorative justice than some of the punishments being handed out.

Mark Law ● 5345d

JazYes they did. They were not control freaks but there was a mutual respect (something now sadly lacking in many it seems)which kept them assured and gave me a whole lot of room to grow.Being 'caught up in the moment' is no excuse for criminal behaviour. Of course there is a need to justify the punishment and to make it appropriate by distinguishing intent but I am thoroughly sick and tired of the excuses being rolled out to justify the criminal behaviour of individuals.

Nigel Brooks ● 5346d

Nigel, did your parents always know what you were doing when you were under 18? I also think you are missing the point, some people were caught up in the moment and others were there as organised criminals. Others were there for destruction. The courts need to distinguish this. When a man who threw his pregnant girlfriend down some stairs ( a case last week) gets a restraining order, and another man who steals bottles of water gets 6 months in prison, it hardly feels justified.

Jaz Brown ● 5346d

In order.No, it is likely that the shopkeepers would have defended their property with deadly force, not something I would either advocate or wish to see.Please Google or search for 'badge of honour' in relation to criminal records, you will ee page after page of articles from criminilogists and other professionals citing this."there is evidence that some parents are simply not aware what their children are doing outside the home"Sorry but that simply underpins the naivity of your original statement. If you don't know what your kids are doing where the hell is the discipline?.

Nigel Brooks ● 5347d

"In many American cities they would not have lived to make it to court" - does this mean that the rioters would have been shot by the police? Is this what we want to see on our streets? US-levels of violence (and it works both ways) are NOT what we want.Criminal record as a a 'badge of honour' Recent reporting has beenabout ASBOs being seen as such. But a criminal record is different. It makes you an obvious suspect, prevents employment inmany occupation and so on."Parental payment of fines "- there is evidence that some parents are simply not aware what their children are doing outside the home. This will bring the issue to their attantion. It is not possible to simply say there is no "discipline at home". That's not being naive - it's true.

Mark Law ● 5347d

The real deterrent in many cases is getting caught. however the hooded and masked gang criminals may not show up so well on tv as some person caught up in the excitement of things. The question should be whether the real gangsters are getting caught rather some fools who tagged along for the ride and did not realise how conspicuous they were. the people who wrecked and burned and killed deserve harsh sentences. but foolish youngsters who got caught up in things should be treated differently. I hope they are but i guess that given the severity of what went on and the fact that 5 people were murdered. then no one can appear soft. but there needs to be a sense of categorising the involvement and dealing accordingly. foolish teenagers when given a scare will often turn out ok. a couple of nights in the cells and a lecture in front of parents may be just what is needed for those that perhaps did not wreck things. for others who have a more lawless attitude need to be treated differently. the danger is that by sentencing everyone the real scum end up with light sentences.

Peter Chadburn ● 5348d

It is concerning that many in the judiciary see guidelines as anything other than guidelines. The public are baying for blood and the judiciary are responding.As one American friend of mine said, those facing custodial sentences are damned lucky they are in the UK. In many American cities they would not have lived to make it to court. I don't advocate this of course but it puts 'harsh' sentencing into perspective."There still is a criminal record - and that is a deterrent in itself for many."  As perverse as it may seem to the majority the gaining of such a record is for many members of gangs a 'badge of honour'. This is something that has been widely reported for the last ten years at least. And, with respect, if you feel that parental payment of fines "might lead to some discipline at home" then I honestly cannot believe such naievity; for if there were any discipline at home then the convicted 11-16 year olds would never have been on the street in the first place.

Nigel Brooks ● 5348d

I am so pleased to see such sensible contributions to this topic.I am sure so many of the teenagers who got caught up in this simply saw it as a victimless crime and an easy way to obtain goods.Fines (which parents may have to pay and might lead to some discipline at home), community service (let them clear up the mess!) and even face-to-face meetings with some of the shopkeepers would act as a far better punishment and future deterrent than a prison sentence.There still is a criminal record - and that is a deterrent in itself for many.

Mark Law ● 5348d

Totally agree with you all and so glad that there are some people who can see sense. Is there anything that can be done? Seems that the politicians and magistrates  got on the hang them all brigade, as did many of the public who don't even live in the areas that were affected, where as there are people like you who experienced it and can see sense.

Jaz Brown ● 5350d

This sentencing is a knee jerk reaction. I've been reading about first time offenders being given custodial scentences for as little as stealing a bottle of lucozade. First time offenders should be given hefty fines (shared out to those buisnesses were disrupted), alot of community service and six months tagging (curfew 9pm to 6am). This is enough to deter them from stealing again, and I think punishment enough. Some of them were teenagers caught up in the hysteria off it all, not hardened criminals. I'm not excusing any of thier behaviour but some are more guilty than others and judges should be aware of this when sentencing.

Marie Shelly ● 5350d

George,I completely agree with you except for the estimated cost of sending someone to prison.The overall average cost of sending someone to prison including related costs met by the National Offender Management Service is a staggering £45,000.  Or 18 months education at Eton!It is estimated that reoffending by former prisoners costs the economy between £9 - 13bn a year. Making prisons a place where serious criminals do time rather than petty criminals waste time, like the shoplifter, will reduce reoffending on release. The guy that I am talking about will have lost his job and quite possibly his home when he comes out. Totally idiotic.

Ben Owen ● 5350d

The Courts should be left alone to follow their “normal” guidance on sentencing. They have had a “meat ticket book” in their bottom drawer for decades and the magistrates know how they should be making the punishments fit the crimeThe law will be even more of an ass if for a few months sentences are harsher than normal.But it is inevitable that the reactions of some politicians and the right wing press will be primal and demands for much heavier punishments will be demanded. Including looters, we are all primal at some level – which is why part of me wants to see some examples being set to compensate for such appalling damage to people and property.On the radio it was suggested that it costs £27K to imprison people. I would much rather see that money being spent on a much more strongly staffed Community Service facility. Then if people now have the time to riot and loot, their free time should be taken away from them while they do Community Service for a long time and during anti social hours. Those Community Service organisations should also be policed more rigorously so that offenders just inescapably have to turn up for Community service.Apart from helping to clear up some of the damage the Community Service offenders could be given vast amounts of clearing and tidying up the whole country. They would be doing work which this country can no longer afford to pay for following the cuts which the Labour party said even they themselves would bring in.

George Knox ● 5350d

The shoplifitng charge resulted from him stealing some bottles of alcohol and some cigarettes from an off-licence.As a comparison, the case before his was a man who was charged with two counts of fraud.  He attempted to cash a cheque of £27,000 and another one worth £13,000.He was released on unconditional bail. Which offence is more deserving to be remanded in custody?

Ben Owen ● 5350d

Seems inappropriate nut how come the riots result in a shoplifting charge?

Graham Weeks ● 5350d