Forum Topic

Where did the riots come from?

A couple of days on from the abominable looting which hit our streets, and the barmy brigade is flailing wildly around for scapegoats. For Melanie Phillips in today’s Daily Mail ‘Britain’s liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every social value’. In other words, it’s all the fault of progress.  Odd, isn’t it, that Mad Mel has forgotten Me First, Greed is Good, No Such Thing as Society. Yes, the vile creeds of the 80s. Monday’s nightmare goes straight back to the lunacies of Thatcherism, which caused industrial collapse, economic decay and mass unemployment, and left millions of our fellow citizens and their children with no economic future and no stake in society.For answers we should look not to the nonsense of public spending cuts and a lurch to the right but to the Continent, where most countries have gone much further down the road of liberalism and riots have been conspicuous by their absence.

Anthony Warwick-Ching ● 5356d11 Comments

Well really, I think statements like that need some evidence to support them. Which "Unions". Which industries? Where? When?I worked in Industrial Realtions in engineering and manufacturing in the 1980s, and found no examples of that in ANY of our factories in the West Midlands.In fact, at a time when settlements were running below inflation at the time, the craft unions were most keen to ensure that differentials between trained engineering staff and apprentices were maintained, and that apprentice pay did not creep closer to qualified rates.The other issue which I found frustrating was the insistence on a "time-served" apprenticeship. This meant that the brighter ones could not get the appropriate qualifications any quicker. As better-educated apprentices came through, they were unable to progress because they had not worked at a certain level for long enough.This meant they were bored and frustrated. The jokes about being sent off to the Stores to ask for a "long weight" or for a "rubber hammer" were based on true experience.

Mark Law ● 5355d

That's just not true, stop trying to attack the unions, there was not one for hairdressers, carpenters etc. Apprenticeships stopped along time before the economic down turn. It was the government policies of everyone having a qualification that did not mean anything, what was needed was training. Employers had to have 'teaching' qualifications to take on trainees, so they stopped taking them on. There are many skilled people out there now, who did apprenticeships and have their own businesses,and have been very successful, charging a fortune just for call outs,  who have do not taken on apprenticeships themselves. A young person would love to earn if they were going to learn a trade. as long as the wage is more than the very small amount that is given for job seekers allowance. (£54 a week)

Jaz Brown ● 5355d

It was the death of apprenticeships when unions started demanding experienced salaries for apprentices.  You can hardly blame companies for not taking on trainees at a time when a lot of them are having to let their experienced staff go.

Gillian Healey ● 5355d

Excellent article Mark, I left school in 1980, when there was high unemployment. There was however apprenticeships and most of my friends did these or stayed on at 6th form. These apprenticeships were not government run, but were within companies, hairdressers, plumbers etc, paid for as a wage by the employers. Where are these now? How many builders, plumbers, carpenters take on apprenticeships? They don't want to take the time out to train young people, or don't know how. Full time college courses do not train the young people in the practical skills that are needed. Even as long ago  as 30 years, full time course in hairdressing were being sold as quick routes to being a hairdresser (one year instead of three years apprenticeships) employers did not want them, they didn't have the speed, skills or customer care. If you have a company, why don't you start thinking about taking on a young person, they don't want to be paid a fortune, they just want a job and training.

Jaz Brown ● 5355d

Interesting data from the BBC...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14489984

Kimberley Sklinar ● 5356d

Well said, George.

Graham Weeks ● 5356d

"common sense and decency" were not attributes that most people (even her own Cabinet) associated with Thatcher.That's why they resigned one by one and eventually got rid of her.

Mark Law ● 5356d

I am always impressed when I go to the Continent  as regards how people behave, but am very conscious that I do not see the broader picture. But it would seem our British culture is different and so what happens on the Continent may not work here.Many non Liberals grumble about the introduction of Human Rights. What probably was not thought out at the time of this change was that it would create an imbalance between your Rights but also your Responsibilities. Responsibilities perhaps have taken a bit of a backseat or they are now to a greater or lesser degree overridden by Rights.A child nowadays in school knows that they have Rights. They can hide behind these Rights and still be unruly. That is a very bad role model and they can manipulate this knowledge when faced with discipline at home.. They grow up and some retain this confused attitude in adult life. Equally an MP or a banker (different kinds of role models) has had the opportunity to milk the system by exercising what they think are Rights.I would prefer that more emphasis in law and procedures was placed on greater Responsibility and accountability rather than watering down Human Rights.

George Knox ● 5356d

Hurrah for common sense and decency.Long live Maggie!

Tony Colliver ● 5356d

Here's an excellent considered piece:-http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/08/youth-unemployment-police-long

Mark Law ● 5356d

You should take the time to read the context of the 'no such thing as society' quote.  It is pretty pertinent to our current situation.  Plus ca change ...QuoteI think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand"I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!" or"I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!" "I am homeless, the Government must house me!" and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—" It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it" . That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people:"All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!" but when people come and say:"But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!" You say:"Look" It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!"There is also something else I should say to them:"If that does not give you a basic standard, you know, there are ways in which we top up the standard. You can get your housing benefit."But it went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate. Unquote

Gillian Healey ● 5356d