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Tony Price says: "The Nazis were not Christian but satanists... If there was any religion they belonged it was paganism."Oh really?Then how do you explain the fact that Hitler had the support of the churches?Also, how do you explain Hitler using biblical texts to justify his treatment of the Jews?Read the following excerpt from one of Hitler's speeches, Tony Price, and see just how ignorant you are:--------------------- "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.""My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.""Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognise more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."--------------------So Hitler's hatred of the Jews was not derived from Christian mythology?Yeah, right.

Robin Taylor ● 5522d

Re  They did it because they believed in the Christian mythology that the Jews killed Christ            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      Oh my God, what utter nonsense. Here we have another example of  a person jumping in feet first with a post which it is clear throughout the purpose of which is to attack the author of the message to which he supposedly responds . Had the person to whom I am responding not be blinded by hate and bitterness and stopped and thought, he would realise the example of the Nazis is about the worst he could have chosen, but blind hatred is just that, blindness to fact and reason. The Nazis were not Christian but satanists, Himmler born and brought up in Egypt and a master of the dark arts as were all the Nazis which they practiced. If there was any "religion " they belonged it was paganism, Gods of the Aryans, Norsemen et al. Their detestation of the Jews was nothing to do with anything re the death of Jesus. And there were no more fervent worshippers and allies to the Nazis than the Muslims, The Grand Mufti was a close friend of Hitler, worshipped him and spent much  time with him in Berlin, where he was warmly welcome. The Muslim Grand Mufti was anti Jewish, and anti British as he wanted to keep the Jews from returning to Palestine, virtue of the Balfour Declaration 1917. He formed the  Muslim S. S. Division. And in Europe, Hitler had very strong voluntary support especially among Muslims, for example in Bosnia-Herzegovenia where most  Muslims joined with the Nazis en masse. So, a more stupid example of the Nazis could not have been picked upon, but that's what blind hatred does, blinds to the truth, logic, reason and facts.        The rest of the post to which I am responding is  such tripe as not to warrant  answering , and I feel this thread has been taken so much off course by the blind ones that the matters raised by " them " to further their  hatreds , engendering of ill-feeling and Forum disharmony, are best allowed to  remain as they are.

Tony Price ● 5522d

I see, so what Hitler did doesn't matter - despite the fact that there are still survivors around today who remember it (as well as others who share your race and creed that would like to repeat it).You say "sorry but it doesn't cut it with me".Well your attempt to blame the entire Bangladeshi population for the tragedy of what happened to that girl doesn't cut it with me either.If you make every individual culpable for the actions of their government, then where would it all end?How would you like it if people started blaming you personally for your government's decision to attack Iraq - something that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths?Oh, but then that was eight years ago - which doesn't count.Sorry, but I take people as I find them. In my observation, the Bangladeshis are an overwhelmingly peaceful and passive people.It ill-behoves someone like you to point a finger at them, especially given that they were brutalised by European colonialists and had their country stripped of its wealth and natural resources.Did you know that we ruined their eco-system by cutting down thousands of a particular type of tree that prevented their land from getting water logged?Have you seen the resultant flooding and famine that is still being experienced by that country on a periodic basis?So don't you - Mrs Holier Than Thou - sit in your nice comfortable office tut-tutting and issuing pious rebukes against a people who have never done you any harm and who routinely suffer more poverty than you can ever imagine.

Robin Taylor ● 5522d

Tony Price says: "...the history of ALL orthodox religions is none too savoury, the difference now being  Christianity and Judaism have moved on, due imo to education and exposure to "westernisation " but sadly the same cannot be said of most of Islam (ists ) whom remain bogged down in medieval ways and means."You have previously argued on this forum that we should not have gone to war against the Nazis, a group who are of essentially the same European/Germanic racial lineage as you and I. Were they an example of what you call western civilisation? They had the same pernicious racist ideology as you and they murdered SIX MILLION JEWS, many on them children. They did it because they believed in the Christian mythology that the Jews killed Christ. And this is all within living memory - indeed, there are thousands of people still alive today who fought Hitler's regime. So don't talk to me about Christianity moving on and leaving Islam behind. You have frequently sung the praises of the BNP. Their founder, John Tyndall, was photographed wearing SS uniform, their members do the Seig Heil salute at their rallies, and their current leader calls the holocaust the "holohoax".An occasional contributor to this forum has been featured in a BNP list of "Jews in the Media". You - surprise surprise - have frequently castigated her.It is only because of our highly developed democratic and legal infrastructure that we have been able to contain your element of our western "civilisation".The ability to do evil runs through all of us, yet you and Bernie like to pretend that only the dark skinned races - such as the Bangladeshis - are capable of wrongdoing.You are deluded.

Robin Taylor ● 5522d

Re    so accommodating to immigrants at the expense of its own people.  Can you?        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    The answer is no, and most countries one by one are coming to the conclusion multiculturalism has not and will not work, Canada being the latest. The biggest form of racism is that by those, who are represented on these Forums , who  decry all things white and British and advocate all things alien and indeed  state the latter are to be preferred to us and ours. THAT is real RACISM, allied with a fair amount of treason. Hopefully the day will come when it  will be dealt with on that basis.          That our environment is being changed before our eyes is a fact. Southall  shows precious little evidence of it being part of a European country, Hanwell and now West Ealing well on it's way. So many businesses have and are leaving. The next I predict will be B H S where I was yesterday afternoon, only one other "English " customer and only one such employee, of whom overall there were very few, most difficult to find. This " other " customer was bemoaning lack of assistance and we both accidentally met  at the pedestrian crossing outside. She told me what the staff had told her, that as customers have fallen away, so the number of staff have had to be reduced, so expect B H S to go the way of M&S who long since departed West Ealing. I said as the population changes, so will the businesses. She will leave the UK when her mother, now in a Rest Home departs this life, as she says UK is no longer a place for true Brits ( she is Irish ) and that her mother has to sell her house in Northfields to pay the £748 per week charged by the Rest Home, ie she gets no help from the Govt, nor has the person to whom I was talking, even when times were bad financially 2 years ago when she had cancer and her husband had to give more help at home. I told her of the Aghan woman in Acton getting £12000 per month for rent alone and no less than £184,000 a year in benefits. She said then you wonder why true Brits want out. 75% plus of the UK population  feel the same, so come the uprising and overthrow of those who have engineered and maintain this treachery. The Refugee Council are demanding " services " for immigrants and asylum seekers are not affected by " the cuts ".

Tony Price ● 5522d

Below is a posting I made on an earlier thread which for me highlights the barbarity of certain "cultures":"Today, there is yet another distressing report in the paper about a 14 year old girl in Bangladesh who was "whipped to death in fatwa" for evidently having an affair - or - as later reported - being raped by a 40 year old man.  So, she was sentenced to 100 lashes  administered publicly in a village nr. Dhaka but she collapsed and died after 70 lashes.  The man was also sentenced to 100 lashes but fled unscathed."Robin sought to justify this by rambling on about some slaughter that took place somewhere in India? centuries ago.  I admit I know nothing about what he was talking about but I can't see that it justifies the above behaviour in 2011 no matter what happened donkeys years ago.Further my comments are nothing whatever to do with "brown" people.  They are to do with immigrants that should not be here no matter where they are from.  My daughter is a senior immigration officer and I probably know more than I ought to about too many cases and frankly some of what I hear makes my blood boil!  I don't care where anyone is from but I DO care about whether certain people should be here at all and whether my taxes are  being handed straight to them whilst at the same time telling us that there is no money for pensions, no jobs for school leavers and graduates, no public housing etc. etc and according to recent polls about 75% of the population would appear to agree with me. Any comment I may have made about Asians is purely directed at Robin and his 2 mates.  Many of Robin's postings are direct attacks on anything un-Asian i.e. his postings about the cricket on the Chiswick forum.  He is entitled to his opinion and I am glad he is deliriously happy with where he lives and his love of anything that is not British but I have to wonder why he lives in the UK when he feels so strongly that India/Pakistan is the better option.  As for the language issue, I spend half of my life at the dentist and whilst I am sitting in the waiting room if I had a pound for everytime the receptionist is heard asking "do you pay for your treatment" to a patient that cannot speak English and, who after several attempts at asking this question finally gets the response "NO" I would be a wealthy woman.  As far as I am aware, the only people who do not pay for dental care are those on benefits.  Try visiting any hospital where half the patients often very elderly, cannot speak English.  Why do you suppose councils print their literature in about 20 different languages.  Courts ask whether enterpreters are required, etc. etc.  I cannot imagine another country on the planet which is so accommodating to immigrants at the expense of its own people.  Can you?

Bernie Paul ● 5523d

I have just clarified further up thread as to why I explained my personal circumstances. I did so after someone had accused me of living with my mother.Predictably, and as Manria says, my explanation is now being further used by my political opponents to try and smear me. For this reason, I will not be drawn any further on any aspect of my private life or background.However, if anyone cares to try and score a cheap political point by making some sort of unfavourable speculation about this - and their speculation turns out to be inaccurate - then I will simply make up unfavourable information about that person.You have been warned.As for "needing a professional opinion", that could well be said about the author of these words:----------------"At long last I have finished steaming over a hot newspaper with a magnifying glass, which newspaper recently published the new first year intake of the London Borough of Ealing's schools. As far as I am aware all the relevant schools within the entire Borough were featured. There are 65 schools involving 1583 pupils of which only 475 are seemingly of European ethnicity. How many of those are of indigenous " origin " is impossible to tell but among that number must be a large contingency from parts of Europe more recently admitted to the EU. Let's be  generous and split 50 / 50 and say 238.  are truly of the home culture. If anyone can dispute or disprove my figures please go ahead. Why should the findings concern me. I would expect they would concern indigenous person of this country / culture as undoubtedly we are being seen out. As those in the " survey " represent the future citizens of this Borough, we the indigs are down to a mere 15% of the whole and Europeans 30%. And of course in 10 to 15 years when these kids will be entering adulthood and reaching the reproduction stage, the trend  of " our " demise will have accelerated."- Tony Price---------------It should be remembered here that Keith Iddon has on a number of occasions (including on this thread) seen fit to back up the racist rubbish spouted by Tony Price. So maybe Keith needs a bit of "professional help" too.

Robin Taylor ● 5525d

There you go again Robin..... foot in mouth syndrome.This is like shooting fish in a barrell, you make it EASY for me at every turn.... I THANK YOU!I wrote "I would step in and give the the person in question a lesson he would never forget"You wrote " So your answer to violence is more violence and yet you lecture others about barbarism "You being multi cultural should know the famous old Muslim edict "an eye for an eye".If your not fully familiar then please allow me too educate you.An Eye For an Eye - LiterallyMonday December 15, 2008CNN reports that an Iranian woman has convinced a local court to sentence her attacker with an "eye for an eye" punishment -- literally. A 27-year-old man had been stalking her after having his marriage proposal turned down. Then one day in 2004, he approached her on the street and threw acid in her face, blinding and permanently disfiguring her. She describes her life now as "slowly wasting away."Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only countries that take the Qur'anic decree of "eye for an eye" literally under Shari'ah law. In a passage discussing the Law of Moses, the Qur'an says, "We ordained therein for them: 'Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.' But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are (no better than) wrong-doers" (Qur'an 5:45).The young woman was able to convince the Tehran court that these verses apply to her situation, and she chose not to give up her right of retaliation. In late November, the court sentenced the young man to be blinded with acid and pay the victim monetary compensation as well. He has until early this week to appeal.http://islam.about.com/b/2008/12/15/an-eye-for-an-eye-literally.htmBasically The Qur'an says that my course of action is perfectly fine.....which in turn makes you look even more stupid than your statement! Robin I have asked you some pretty basic questions of which you either can't or WON'T answer.I challenged you to answer without using the nail bomber as a magic get out of jail free card... and you failed MISERABLY.Your a GUTLESS COWARD.

Andy Wright ● 5530d

Re " Dr. Hamid is an Egyptian Scholar and Author From the heart of a Muslim - Tawfik Hamid             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    Excellent post and unfortunately, very true. Basically it boils down to education, or more to the point, lack of it.I have several friends of the Muslim persuasion who would/do  also abhor what the Doctor says except possibly on the question of the Palestinian problem, although one friend when he fled the reaches of Saddam went to Saudi Arabia where he was treated very badly, put in a camp in the desert for over a year and pleaded  to be let out saying the Jews would treat us better than you. He came to this country to join an uncle who had come here in 1974, a Professor whose hospitality I have experienced, and  himself lives in the East End with a wife and 2 children, with another on the way. His 14 yr old daughter he allows to dress as she wants and defends his wife ( also Iraqi ) to be allowed to go out, when attempts to prevent it were made by family in Iraq during a visit there last year. Most of the Muslims I know well are educated and who retain their adherence to Islam but certainly not in the strictest terms. All of them while retaining their Muslim friends, live among the more indigenous persons of this country and all who know well my views on orthodox religions, including of course, Islam. What appalls Dr Hamid  also appalls them, as I said it is a question of education, same as with Christianity until relatively recent years. The teachings were of fire and brimstone and to hell you go if you don't do as you are told. Indeed, the Bishop of Winchester would tour his area  and imprison persons he found eating meat on Fridays, and often left them in prison. The Pope had torture chambers until the latter days of the 19th century for persons who did not comply. So in Christianity and the West in general we have witnessed the rejection of orthodox Christianity as the populations have become educated and able to think for themselves and see the faults in what the religious leaders have said and done in the past. The same will hopefully  happen in Islam and as I say to my friends, they will come westernised as time goes on, as Jews have. Few realise Islam and Judaism come from the same source.  It is a question of education with which comes the rejection of the rantings of the Priests,Mullahs and Orthodox Rabbis, hence in Judaism, the existence of Reformed  and Liberal Synogogues. Hopefully Islam will undergo the same transformation but no reason meantime why we can't point out the errors of that religion, in a friendly and logical way.  To that end, I do my bit, including passing on series of photographs that get sent to me which involve children with animals,especially the closeness with pet dogs and even pigs. One very highly placed friend in Pakistan loves them, others come from Iraq, Tunisia, Algeria, Syria and Jordan. A newspaper reporter in Pakistan used to send me his articles for correction of his English and who has written/had published some hard hitting articles especially on the question of the abuse of marriage of young girls to older men, which has disastrous effects physically and emotionally on the girls. He no longer needs correction of his english but still very much keeps in touch, despite the content of e mails I send him which are critical of the practices of Islam, especially the gross mistreatment of Christians in Muslim countries.

Tony Price ● 5530d

Tawfik Hamid is not the only Muslim who is self-critical of his religion and its more extreme cultural practices.I made reference earlier in this thread to the fact that Tasneem Ahmad was the Muslim journalist who exposed the wrongdoing that has been committed during some Koran classes.I know many other Muslims who believe their community should change. Some years ago, I had an Afghani friend who was highly critical of the decision of the Taliban to blow up some Buddhist statues in his country.Equally, there are those in the Christian community who did not agree with the gung-ho attitude of George W Bush when he went into Iraq like he was on a crusade.There are those in the Jewish community - like the actress Miriam Margolyes - who have been highly critical of Isreal's suppression of the Palestinian people. (Margolyes even says it makes her "ashamed to be Jewish" - a remark which I regard as a serious mistake - but you get the point).What all of this shows us is that the three Abrahamic faiths have their problems, but not all of their adherents necessarily approve of what is done in the name of their religion.The truth is that most Muslims in Southall covet the benefits of a liberal society. Most do not hold to a fundamentalist doctrine, and most certainly do not approve of wife beating (something which happens in all cultures) or in stoning or any of the other outdated practices which certain people on this thread would have you believe they adhere to.To me, Southall is a modern and exciting community with a proud history of struggle and resistance against fascism (witness how the people came out on the streets here on April 23 1979 to repel the Nazi National Front). The community here are very easy to live with, and with each new generation its people are more liberal in outlook and more cosmopolitan in lifestyle.Where there is wrong doing, as in the case of the very rare incidents of honour killing, then let us blame the individuals responsible - and not attack everyone else who happens to share their religion or ethnicity.I'm white English, but I have no intention of being blamed for the actions of the white Englishman who went around London blowing up members of the Asian, African and gay communities with his nail bombs some years ago.So let's stop the blame game and put an end to the finger pointing.

Robin Taylor ● 5530d

Dr. Hamid is an Egyptian Scholar and Author From the heart of a Muslim - Tawfik Hamid "I was born a Muslim and lived all my life as a follower of Islam After the barbaric terrorist attacks done by the hands of my fellow Muslims everywhere on this globe, and after the too many violent acts by Islamists in many parts of the world, I feel responsible as a Muslim and as a human being, to speak out and tell the truth to protect the world and Muslims as well from a coming catastrophe and war of civilizations. I have to admit that our current Islamic teaching creates violence and hatred toward Non-Muslims. We Muslims are the ones who need to change. Until now we have accepted polygamy, the beating of women by men, and killing those who convert from Islam to other religions. We have never had a clear and strong stand against the concept of slavery or wars, to spread our religion and to subjugate others to Islam and force them to pay a humiliating tax called Jizia. We ask others to respect our religion while all the time we curse non-Muslims loudly (in Arabic) in our Friday prayers in the Mosques. What message do we convey to our children when we call the Jews "Descendants of the pigs and monkeys".. Is this a message of love and peace, or a message of hate? I have been into churches and synagogues where they were praying for Muslims. While all the time we curse them, and teach our generations to call them infidels, and to hate them. We immediately jump in a 'knee jerk reflex' to defend Prophet Mohammad when someone accuses him of being a pedophile while, at the same time, we are proud with the story in our Islamic books, that he married a young girl seven years old (Aisha) when he was above 50 years old. I am sad to say that many, if not most of us, rejoiced in happiness after September 11th and after many other terror attacks. Muslims denounce these attacks to look good in front of the media, but we condone the Islamic terrorists and sympathise with their cause. Till now our 'reputable' top religious authorities have never issued a Fatwa or religious statement to proclaim Bin Laden as an apostate, while an author, like Rushdie, was declared an apostate who should be killed according to Islamic Shariia law just for writing a book criticizing Islam. Muslims demonstrated to get more religious rights as we did in France to stop the ban on the Hejab (Head Scarf), while we did not demonstrate with such passion and in such numbers against the terrorist murders. It is our absolute silence against the terrorists that gives the energy to these terrorists to continue doing their evil acts. We Muslims need to stop blaming our problems on others or on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. As a matter of honesty, Israel is the only light of democracy, civilization, and human rights in the whole Middle East . We kicked out the Jews with no compensation or mercy from most of the Arab countries to make them "Jews-Free countries" while Israel accepted more than a million Arabs to live there, have its nationality, and enjoy their rights as human beings. In Israel, women can not be beaten legally by men, and any person can change his/her belief system with no fear of being killed by the Islamic law of 'Apostasy,' while in our Islamic world people do not enjoy any of these rights. I agree that the 'Palestinians' suffer, but they suffer because of their corrupt leaders and not because of Israel. It is not common to see Arabs who live in Israel leaving to live in the Arab world. On the other hand, we used to see thousands of Palestinians going to work with happiness in Israel, its 'enemy'. If Israel treats Arabs badly as some people claim, surely we would have seen the opposite happening. We Muslims need to admit our problems and face them. Only then we can treat them and start a new era to live in harmony with human mankind. Our religious leaders have to show a clear and very strong stand against polygamy, pedophilia, slavery, killing those who convert from Islam to other religions, beating of women by men, and declaring wars on non-Muslims to spread Islam. Then, and only then, do we have the right to ask others to respect our religion. The time has come to stop our hypocrisy and say it openly: 'We Muslims have to Change". Tawfik Hamid.  A courageous Dr Tawfik Hamid . He risks his life by daring to speak up.Not from Islam, but from Islamists who have lost their way. May the peace you wish for others be Yours too .

Os. A. Whittle ● 5530d

Oh no!....OH NO!.... Borin has got the Grammar detectives on my case as well.... How will I sleep tonight???Borin you really know NOTHING about culture do you? A culture is hundreds if not THOUSANDS of years in the making so all your crap about football,EDL and throwing up is meaningless. It's not convenient....It's fact.Honour killings both here and from where this barbaric custom spewed forth are from the Islamic comunity....the clue is in the name Robin.... Islam/Islamic....want me to draw you a picture ???( provided I don't actually draw the prophet himself I wont be stoned too death !)Wether forced marriages are rare or not its a DISGRACE. It's dirty old men getting their jollies with kids....plain and simple. Or are you saying that because it's "rare" that It's ok???And if it's frowned upon then why do they still do it???  I'm not saying that Asian parents wish ill on their kids, I'm saying it's almost an accepted practice. The fact that the mosque in question would not speak to the reporter ( either because she is a woman or because she exposed CHILD ABUSE ) speaks volumes.You say about on her findings being used to beat all Muslims with a stick... I bet if that " teacher " had a stick he would have beat those poor children with it.Robin I am a father of three children and that man hit those kids more times in THREE HOURS than I have had to in 21 years. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!  I dont condone BATTERY of children of any race.I follow no religion Robin and If I saw ANY child being beaten by an adult I would step in and give the the person in question a lesson he would never forget.....and it would not involve his hands being tied behind his back and having rocks thrown at him until he died!I have no idea why the man you saw behaved the way he did towards the woman you mentioned. I don't know him so how could I know?For all you know that woman could have been beaten that very day for not doing as she was told.I grew up in a very violent household amd watched my poor mother take a lot of beatings because she would not comply.... that on It's own merit gives me the right too question the dreaded veil.I'm of the opinion that even if only one woman is saved from a life of abject terror then It's worth banning.....or do you not consider just one woman important enough too be saved???You still have not given me any answers to my questions.....I'm waiting Borin Taylor.

Andy Wright ● 5531d

First of all, let me remind you of what I said earlier: that many of my Asian friends could teach you a thing or two about spelling and English grammar.Among the errors in your latest diatribe, you used the word "too" when it should have been spelt "to" - and you did so on no less than FIVE occasions. You also misspelt "monitor" as "moniter", "harassed" as "harrassed" and "oppression" as "opression".Most of my Asian acquaintances have a superior grasp of your language than you do (but they would be too polite to tell you this) so why on earth do you think they have anything to learn from you about culture?Regarding your other points..."The things you listed have nothing to do with English culture. The things you listed are bad decisions made by individuals."Oh, I see - so when a section of the white English population display bad behavioural traits (like throwing up in the street, rioting at EDL rallies or causing trouble at football matches) it's not about culture - it's just about their behaviour as individuals. Well, how very convenient.The harsh reality is that these problems are more common among the indigenous community than the extremely rare 'practice' of honour killing is among the Islamic community. Therefore, on what basis do you say honour killings are done "in the name of Islam"? Every mosque and Islamic society in the country opposes it.Forced marriages are also rare. You are confusing them with "arranged marriages", which usually involves a son or daughter telling his or her parents "I'd like to marry that person - can you arrange it for me?" Sorry if this does not conform to your ignorant stereotypes, but I know enough Asian families to say with authority that forced marriages are not only uncommon but are frowned upon by the community at large.Why do you think Asian parents are more likely to pay to send their kids to private school - do you seriously think it is because they wish ill on their off-spring? Why does the Muslim Pakistani man opposite me spend thousands of pounds on educating his daughter at an English public school - because he believes a cap should be placed on the aspirations of females?"Faith schools..... Did you watch Dispatches last night on channel 4?"Yes, I did. It was researched and presented by a concerned Muslim woman, Tazeer Ahmad. Like hundreds of thousands of others in this country, she is an educated liberal-minded Muslim who wanted to expose this wrongdoing.Sadly, and paradoxically, she would have been all too aware of the fact that with any expose of this nature, there are certain pernicious elements of British society (of which you are one) who are not really in the slightest bit concerned with the welfare of the children but who are ready to leap with glee on her findings and use them as a stick to beat all Muslims (her included).The practice she exposed should be rooted out. In much the same way, the acts of racist violence against refugees on a Bristol housing estate (which were uncovered by another episode of "Dispatches" some months ago - but which, tellingly, you have never commented upon) should also be rooted out.By the way, I always thought that people on your end of the political spectrum were quite keen on corporal punishment for children - and that you blamed "woolly minded liberals" like me for its abolition. I guess it's only okay if it's a white hand which is delivering the slap of authority, yes?Incidentally, if you want to talk about the physical abuse of children in faith-based establishments, I think you'll find there has been quite a bit of that among one of the Christian denominations* (but somehow I doubt this will be of concern to you).Lastly, on your remarks about the burka. So you are concerned about the repression of Muslim women, are you? I doubt you really are.Am I correct in saying that you frequent a pub on Kingsley Road Hounslow? I remember tucking into a kebab on that street during last year's general election campaign. I observed a veiled woman walking past and I saw her being scowled at by a middle-aged white bloke.Why did he behave like that to her? Was he offended by her dress code? Did he, like you, regard her garment as something which her husband had forced her to wear (i.e. a symbol of her oppression?). If so, then why take it out on the woman - and in so doing add further to her repression?The simple fact of the matter is that the Andy Wrights of this world will always find an excuse to persecute minorities. Sometimes they will conflate the extremely rare practices of forced marriages and child abuse with Asian culture generally. They will even pretend to be against corporal punishment and in favour of women's emancipation in order to take a pop at the Asian community.At the end of the day, a racist doesn't need a reason to be racist: that's just the way he is. So the truth is that this whole discussion is a waste of time.If every single Asian person in this country behaved impeccably, the Andy Wrights of this world would still find an excuse to malign and attack them.*I mean no disrespect to any followers of that branch of Christianity.

Robin Taylor ● 5531d

So I got one spelling wrong, SO WHAT?.... so are you going to report me to the spelling police???I don't know how you can possibly walk when you have your foot jammed permanently in your mouth Robin.The things you listed have nothing to do with English culture. The things you listed are bad decisions made by individuals.However, I would love too talk about culture with you in some detail.Honour killings.... Honour killings have been happening for thousands of years and happen here in the UK in the name of Islam.....  Can you please enlighten me on the benefits too our society when an honour killing happens? Forced marriages....  Women and children are often taken back too India or Pakistan and forced into wedlock.  Again, this has been happening for thousands of years and still happens today.  Schools in the UK,in heavily Asian populated areas are told to closely moniter the attendance of Asian girls because the government are aware that children are taken away for this purpose.  Can you explain to me how a child would benefit by marrying a man many years her senior?Faith schools..... Did you watch  Dispatches last night on channel 4?  It was about faith schools and what happens inside them.  Last night's episode clearly showed a " teacher "  SLAPPING,THUMPING AND KICKING children.  Over a three hours of secret filming clearly showed an adult physically ASSAULTING several children.  There were TEN incidents of CHILD CRUELTY.  There was also another adult in the room who did absolutely NOTHING whilst these criminal activities took place . I think It's a fair statement to make that this happens in lots of these faith schools otherwise why would a reputable programme like Dispatches make an episode based on one school?http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-80/episode-1 Have posted the link for you "old bean"  It will be available soon......ENJOY !So now can you tell me what place violence and child abuse has in a religious institution and how that benefits the children?The burka....  We had contact about this item of clothing on a previous thread.  I asked you a question of which you failed too answer so I will ask you again.If there are 100,000 women wearing the burka in the UK, if only 1% of these women didn't want too wear it but are forced to by whatever means necessary ( some are bullied,harrassed and  threatened with violence on a daily basis ),that equates to 7 THOUSAND days a week spent in misery and fear.  What's your views on the opression of Muslim women and how do you propose to stop it?Honour killings,forced marriages,faith schools and dress codes are all Asian culture Robin.... and not the list of rubbish you mentioned.Everything I have mentioned happens in the UK and is current so when you reply please don't mention Hitler, the nail bomber, the vikings or anything else that happened umpteen years ago.

Andy Wright ● 5531d

I'm disappointed by the quality of your debate, George, because I would have hoped for better from you than just a series of generalisations.To say I have integrated with those around me is plain silly. I wear English clothes, I speak English (with an English accent) and I choose to eat mostly English food.You say "immigrants have chosen not to integrate". This is also silly. An immigrant does not say to him/herself "I've decided I'm not going to integrate". In practice, most immigrants will maintain some aspects of their cultural identity (e.g. food and possibly some of their clothes) and will adopt some characteristics of the host culture. The precise quantities of each will often depend upon how long they've been here for and how much they've interacted with members of the host culture. (The fact that a white residents group entitled "The Southall Residents Association" successfully campaigned for racial segregation in local schools in the 1960s and 1970s should make you realise that where assimilation has failed it has not always been the fault of the immigrant-descended community).You go on to say Southall "looks like a place which wants to keep its community culture and in doing so shut out change which would occur if it believed in integration". Once again, that's just silly. The notion that the Southall community has some sort of deliberate game plan of not wanting to integrate is absurd. The simple truth is that they have the starting off point of having a different racial ancestry and cultural identity. They do not even think in terms of "integrating" or, for that matter, of "not integrating": they are simply different. I do not believe people should feel ashamed of being different.You also say "with so much poverty in Southall and elsewhere people tend to cling together because they are suspicious of outside influence". Again, that's simply not true. It is you who is suspicious of them, and it has to do with an inability to accept difference. As for the poverty aspect, yes there is poverty in parts of the town (e.g. much of Old Southall, home to more recent immigrants from war-torn Somalia, is semi-depressed, and many of the roads that run off either side of the Broadway look rather unkempt and gritty) yet if you are invited into one of the houses in those down-at-heal looking neighbourhoods you will often discover a mini palace behind the curtains.To get a more balanced view of Southall, you need to travel beyond the centre and check out some of its suburbs. Look at parts of Dormers Wells - where many of the Indian-owned houses are absolutely vast and will typically have a Merc and maybe even a Bentley parked in the driveway. Check out Norwood Green and the wealth of some of the people in that area. Also, check out the vast rows of neat 1930s-built privately owned properties surrounding Allenby Road (on the Greenford/Southall borders), with the clean tree-lined streets and the feeling of quiet suburban tranquillity. Over the last twenty years that area has seen the gradual and entirely peaceful transition from majority English to majority Asian neighbourhood. In fact, check out Heston and Cranford: they have been changed demographically by the residential spill-over from Southall and they are both safe and prosperous. Indeed, they are, to all intents and purposes, now suburbs of Southall.  Sorry, George, but your view of Southall as a wholly insular-looking poverty-stricken town is naive and not one that I recognise - and I'm one of its residents.

Robin Taylor ● 5537d

RobinIt seems with all your postings about how you enjoy living in Southall that if anything you have integrated with those around you because there is a very high non white population which lives there. But that is not the point, because you as a decidedly obvious minority have joined in with a minority. The point is that there are many examples where immigrants over the last few decades have chosen not to integrate and who do not promulgate multiculturalism but quite openly reject it. You in Southall are surrounded by that. It is a very inward looking community in many ways. Walking around the streets gives the impression of going back in time to a very non British environment. It is not an area which looks as though it could be described as cosmopolitan. It looks like a place which wants to keep its community culture and in doing so shut out change which would occur if it believed in integration. Also with so much poverty in Southall and elsewhere people tend to cling together because they are suspicious of outside influence. You cannot blame immigrant groups doing this, but it is not what the majority want, and there is a long history of earlier immigrants coming here who have integrated – which is what the British do want.This integration partly leads to more immmigrants getting work and so gives less reason for working people to complain about paying so much in Benefits to isolated non participative immigrant communities.If you walk around central London there is a huge mix of races but you don’t feel as though you are a stranger in your own country. If you walk around say Green Lanes in Haringey you most certainly do. Feeling strange in your own country is not what I think most long term indigenous British people want. If they grow up feeling they can go anywhere and later they feel they can’t because communities have sprung up which are barely welcoming and because those communities annoyingly refuse to learn English and to integrate and even start to try and impose their culture customs law and economic and education systems etc on the indigenous population, then it is not in the least surprising that the social engineering signposts set up by past governments have lost their direction.Where multiculturalism has succeeded this has produced a much richer and probably a better society. But there is too much evidence that multiculturism has not worked in some areas of our lives and change is needed. We need a new word and direction to replace an ideology which is running out of steam. I think that Cameron is right to try and start this debate. Labour especially needs to recognise that multiculturalism has run its course. That includes you.

George Knox ● 5537d

Some good points, George.As a resident of Southall, I probably live more of a multicultural life than anyone else on this thread.I interact on a daily basis with people of various different religions (and none) as well as of a variety of ethnic and cultural brackgrounds.I also regularly receive gifts from friends celebrating the many festivities which are observed around here (e.g. Eid, Diwali, Christmas, Guru Nanak's Birthday).That is my multiculturalism.The quote which ex-Tory Councillor Graham Weeks ascribes to Roger Scruton made me laugh. "In place of the old beliefs of a civilization based on godliness, judgment and historical loyalty, young people are given the new beliefs of a society based on equality and inclusion, and are told that the judgment of other lifestyles is a crime..."In my opinion, Scruton is one of the most pompous and self-opinionated figureheads on the right wing. I remember his "Salisbury Review" magazine arguing for increased trade with South Africa during the apartheid era. So when he talks about "historical loyalty" perhaps he is referring to propping up the old Ian Smith and P.W. Botha regimes? Or perhaps, as an extreme conservative, he is trumpeting the Victorian values of the workhouse, of child labour and of a workforce denied any trade union rights?It's funny Scruton is referred to by the grand title of professor of philosophy when he can come up with such a trite phrase as "he who lives by the state dies by the state" (this during an attack he made on the attempts of mining and other working class communities to defend their basic living standards).So what on earth does Scruton know about multiculturalism? I very much doubt if his country estate is near to any of our country's culturally or ethnically diverse population centres, and I doubt even more if the hunt he rides with is anything other than mono-cultural.As per usual, those of us who live the multicultural life are attacked for our choice by those who know nothing whatosever about it.

Robin Taylor ● 5538d