Forum Topic

Is Ken's latest idea of 20mph limit a vote loser or winner

Our dear  Mayor appears to have now formally proposed  the imposition of a 20mph speed limit on all London's residential roads, should he be re-elected. Exactly which roads would, or not fall within that description remain to be seen but the imposition would in my opinion have disastrous effects for the environment, as apparently the "speed humps " have had. The increase in pollution would be enormous with every vehicle crawling along in low(er) gear,( bad enough as it is at 30 mph ) using up so much more fuel and pumping out so much more C02 into our streets, residential of course. And I could imagine tempers getting frayed?. Apart from the increase in pollution, there is also the increase in fuel used, most of which is imported and will all have to be at some stage in the future.        The current 30mph limit was imposed in the 1920's when many vehicles had braking systems working on the wheels of only one axle and were thus nowhere near as efficient as now.        Fortunately Boris has poohpood the idea, so just another reason for not voting for our Kenneth?

Tony Price ● 6586d32 Comments

20mph zone in Perivale is meaningless as it is not enforced.

Graham Weeks ● 4306d

>But why bother to make a law about it when we can so rarely go any faster?Because some people do, and if they can't they seem to bloody well try as hard as they can!I'd rather those that treat the limit as a target trying to drive at 20 rather than 30.

Paul James ● 4306d

I drive at 20 or under in the side streets of Northfields. I have to say though that I see many drivers going faster. I get worried when they go over 20 along Northcroft Road, there are so mnay T junctions and the school, it is just so dangerous to go any faster than 20, so we do need to make a law, some drivers need to be told, because they seem so unaware of their surroundings.

Jaz Brown ● 4306d

Well, that's a guesstimate as my weekly run out to the Chilterns shoves it up to about 20mph, plus I avoid the rush hour.

Susan Kelly ● 4306d

Blimey Susan, you are doing well, mine was 11mph last week driving around Ealing.

Nigel Brooks ● 4306d

I would cautiously suggest that, driving in suburban London, it would be difficult to achieve an average of 15mph without exceeding 20 mph.As for road sign clutter,  I agree, but with blanket 20mph restriction presumably only needed on the perimeters - after all no 30mph in Ealing that I can recall?

Philip Coe ● 4306d

I would cautiously suggest that, driving in suburban London, it would be difficult to achieve an average of 15mph without exceeding 20 mph.As for road sign clutter,  I agree, but with blanket 20mph restriction presumably only needed on the perimeters - after all no 30mph in Ealing that I can recall?

Philip Coe ● 4306d

But why bother to make a law about it when we can so rarely go any faster? It just means more street 'furniture' and white paint on the road.I have a trip computer and my average speed in London is 15-16mph.

Susan Kelly ● 4307d

In most streets in London, the usual average speed is about 20mph or less, so why not make 20mph the rule for driving in all streets in London? It would prevent accidents, be safer for pedestrians and congestion of traffic.

Gerry Tan ● 4307d

No...just cycling on foortapths at all.

Keith Iddon ● 4307d

No...just cycling on footpaths at all.

Keith Iddon ● 4307d

......................at speeds faster than 20mph on or off pavements.

George Knox ● 4307d

> As Susan said, it would make hardly any difference to journey times.General consensus is that it massively improves them.20mph reduces delays, it improves the flow of traffic, and there are less crashes, a major cause of delays in London.

Paul James ● 4307d

Agreed and then there would be even less excuse to cycle on the footpath...

Keith Iddon ● 4307d

Most of the side roads near my home in Boston Manor are 20mph.It's about as fast as you can safely travel anyway with 'wall-to-wall' parking and speed humps.I have never seen it enforced, if it were they could take out the damned humps!

Nigel Brooks ● 4307d

If I had my way, I'd make all London roads have 20mph speed limits. As Susan said, it would make hardly any difference to journey times.

Gerry Tan ● 4307d

It's often hard to get over 20mph anyway on residential back streets, so I can see no point in going to the trouble of formalising this, especially as it will almost certainly not be enforced.

Susan Kelly ● 4307d

The number of roads in Ealing with 20mph appears to be growing quite rapidly but not quite sure of the rationale behind why certain roads are chosen and other perhaps more obvious targets are not.  Is it just resident lobbying that swings it or is it more scientific based on accidents/injuries etc?In my view they should make all the side roads 20mph - I can't believe there would be any significant effect on travel times.  And yes I am a driver.

Philip Coe ● 4307d

Re. "  but 20mph is painfully slow and a London-wide imposition seems unnecessary and is likely to make criminals of us all."          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      Persactly. I am at my Hampshire home at the mo, and read Southampton councillors have abandoned the idea of 20 mph ZONES, which from what I gather , were intended for certain areas alone, and not City wide for all residential roads. Apparently, a local authority can impose speed limits ( lower than the norm ) without national government permission.

Tony Price ● 6580d

I think I'm a pretty careful driver and I stick to speed limits, but 20mph is painfully slow and a London-wide imposition seems unnecessary and is likely to make criminals of us all.

Susan Kelly ● 6583d

As a not infrequent cyclist in sunny Ealing, I know just what you mean and agree with you Max.Last week a car driver, so anxious to overtake me in a narrow residential road that his wing mirror clipped my forearm - it was a Mercedes type car with large protruding mirrors(like Prince Charles ears!) - bah to careless drivers! He was only doing about 15ish mph thank goodness.  :-(

Gerry Tan ● 6584d

As a cyclist, I'm a fan of the 20mph zones. They have just re-surfaced a road near Waterloo station and put a 20mph limit on it. When I'm riding my bike it means I'm generally riding at the same speed as the rest of the traffic which is much safer then drivers getting frustrated and trying to overtake.Max

Max Wall ● 6584d

I Agree with you Gerry on this one..Also its better the devil you know than the one you dont know..Boom..boom...

Hugh Telford ● 6585d

Poor old Mr Livingstone has come in for a lot of stick, not the least from Ealing posters and definitely most of our friends in Chiswick, but I'll be eternally grateful for the few good things he's done for london. Congestion zones, bus lanes and various pedestrianisation of bust London precincts. having worked for decades in the City and Westminster and having lived in Shepheards Bush, Kilburn, Earls Court, Chelsea(the Kings Road no less!) and now resident in sunny Ealing, I'm so pleased to enjoy the streets of London which are now a delight to use, as opposed to the hell that they used to be. And I think his proposal to introduce 20mph limits on most roads and streets will be the icing on our cake and probably his final gesture. We shall see.

Gerry Tan ● 6585d

During the Creffield consultation period I did query why there didn't appear to be any enforcement measures beyond a couple of extra humps. Lorries and vans bearing the markings 'John Lewis Partnership' and 'Gowring & Pursey' seem to flout the Twyford zone limits on a regular basis. But then who is going to want a Gatso flashing outside their front window every 10 minutes?I am also not a fan of road humps or worse still, rumble strips.  I'm as guilty as anyone of 'racing' between humps and as you quite righly point out, they are disruptive for local residents too (I understand Acton has the 'worst hump in the country' situated in Churchfield Road).  The worst measures of all are pinch-points, as these are lethal for the 2-wheeled community.As for paying for the measure - as the local authorities are clearly using Parking Permits and Parking Fines as Council Tax by stealth then it seems fair that part of this money is used for road safety. In which I include improving road surfaces and drainage.In the long term we need a major shift in public attitude towards speeding, of the magnitude that took place during the 70's and early 80's towards drink driving.Gerry - it won't be all roads. Trunk routes such as the A4, A40 and probably A406 will still be at existing speed limits. I'm not sure about roads like the A4020.

Gavin Gilbert ● 6586d

If the notion of all minor/residential  roads to become 20 mph becomes a reality, does this mean that all the roads will be given treatment to deter higher speeds. Items such as tables on entry, radar operated warnings, cameras for average speed detection, speed tables, humps and cushions. In the existing home zones where such measures are (partly) in place does it really slow cars enough or do they simply brake for every obstacle and accelerate away meantime.  Further, would these zones be enforceable if only enacted piecemeal as I understand that if insufficient measures are taken to slow the speed down, then traffic police cannot enforce 20 and in fact the speed limit reverts to national speed limit although going over humps at 60 mph would be interesting and disturbing to nearby residents.  At what cost then would these measures be implemented and likely all residents would pay rather than car users.  Still living in Ealing, we might have a chance as they seem less thorough on implementing measures in zones compared with other local authorities - the recent Hanger Hill imposition was a very cheap exercise as many humps were pre existing and in fact was such quality that road signs are wrongly erected - try Corfton Road leading into Hillside Road - why does it tell you 30 going into Hillside - and strange omissions in zone - why is Corfton excluded?  on the other hand Hounslow are currently implementing a new zone on Sparrow Farm estate with entry treatments for every road and humps every few yards - probably to make life more exciting for the moped maniacs.However Safety is the key concern and Ken or successors will probably win on this.Department of Transport does seem to be in favour of lower speeds because of accident reduction and reckons 20 mph limits without accompanying measures only reduces speed by 1 mph but with measures by 9 mph.  The biggest impact on life threatening survival rates is between 40 and 30 where survival rates improve to 80% chance to survive from the 10% at higher speed. The move to 20 increases survival rate to 97%.  Time for manufacturers to bring out a low geared urban car for the London Market or just persuade us even more not to bother with cars at all.

Colin Izzard ● 6586d

I dunno whether Mr Livingstone's proposed 20mph plan would help him win the election, as I know nothing about road engineering and that sort of science. Neither am I, as Mr Gilbert Gavin so scathingly describes a self-centred dosser who thinks I've a right to shag-up London's environment by the unfettered use of my car, but I do like driving down our few neighbourhood 20mph roads. It's the only time I feel relaxed when driving - I do get scared with 'white knuckle' tension on 30 and 40mph roads in sunny Ealing.  So all-in-all, I think our Mr Ken is on a sensible path with his proposals of a blanket 20mph network throughout the whole of London. But then I seldom use my car, preferring to walk, cycle, use the excellent buses and u/g and the occasional minicab(if I'm feeling flush).  With money I mean!  ;-)

Gerry Tan ● 6586d

The 20mph proposals are well known and have been widely in the public domain for some months. Furthermore it is a fashionable move for the Boroughs to introduce 20mph zones - Twyford Road has been so zoned for some time and Creffield is under consultation now. Hurrah for our Conservative Council as the previous shower were doing s*d all about drivers using Creffield Road as a race track.The C-Charge didn't impact on Ken's vote so I doubt if the 20mph zone would either. The sort of self-centred tosser who thinks they have a right to shag up Londons environment with unfettered use of a motor vehicle is hardly the sort of public minded citizen who would vote Ken anyway.If Livingstone loses, I suspect it will be due to guilt by association with the terminally ill Labour government and a sense that it's 'just time for a change'.And jroyston@london.newsquest.co.uk is an email address, not a website.  Difficult this IT stuff, isn't it?

Gavin Gilbert ● 6586d

Ref. " article in the Ealing Times says, just to please R Gav., I will see if I can produce it for the Forum "          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    It does not seem to be part of the on-line version of the paper but it is on page 5 of the 20th March issue written by reporter Jack Royston who gives his w/site as    jroyston@london.newsquest.co.uk    which also does not load up!!.

Tony Price ● 6586d

Response to :- " Depends, if a 20MPH limit is imposed round Schools etc at times when the School is active ok.My road is so narrow made worse by parked vehicles on both sides, that anything above 20MPH is impossible, unless you are a complete homicidal idiot, and there are a few believe me. If its a blanket imposition however I would think it almost impossible to police "                xxxxxxxxxxxx What you say Colin re near schools is perfectly sensible ( at  certain times and days of course ) but I think you will find what our Ken has in mind is for across  the whole capital , and thus I think is unworkable. I do so hope he pushes this as it will be another nail in his coffin. That is what the article in the Ealing Times says, just to please R Gav., I will see if I can produce it for the Forum.

Tony Price ● 6586d

Depends, if a 20MPH limit is imposed round Schools etc at times when the School is active ok.My road is so narrow made worse by parked vehicles on both sides, that anything above 20MPH is impossible, unless you are a complete homicidal idiot, and there are a few believe me. If its a blanket imposition however I would think it almost impossible to police unless you have 'Jenny Jones' with a Radar Gun in every Street!

Colin Vaughan ● 6586d

Did he say which taxpayers' pocket was going to pay for it, the pocket that contributes to his office or the pocket that contributes to the town hall or maybe even the government?

Barbara Yerolemou ● 6586d

Another Ken folly leading to lack of respect for law and more of a police state.

Graham Weeks ● 6586d