Forum Topic

Watermans Gone

Sad to hear about the announcement of the closure of the Watermans Art Centre. For years this was our closest cinema and was a pleasant and good value place to visit. I would assume that at least a third of its audience came from the Ealing area so the opening of the Ealing Project was probably a big factor in its closure. We haven't been to Watermans since the more local cinema opened. I hope that this isn't the end of its story and that a new arts centre is built in the area.

Gordon Southwell ● 48d27 Comments

No, the new centre and associated homes were to be built first.https://www.brentfordtw8.com/default.asp?section=info&page=plwatermans010.htmThe delay was originally because the project was called in because of the visual impact on Kew Gardens, and rightly so. Subsequent delays weren’t because of rising interest rates, the go ahead was given before Trussonomics kicked in. There were issues of power supply, etc, which has affected other developments in west London.You don’t have to look too hard to see that developers don’t really like building affordable homes in their schemes. It’s not a new thing and is particularly common in areas deemed highly desirable, such as riversides. Local authorities are not really reluctant to vary consents or grant them restrospectively, especially given the cosy relations between parties.Very little was done to head off the sudden closure and that’s what’s really upsetting people.

Simon Hayes ● 1d

As I understand it earlier delays to the project start were due to London Green saying it was unviable with the required level of social housing. Although they were possibly trying it on, they were probably relieved they hadn't started work once interest rates and construction costs went against them.Hounslow Council didn't promise that a new centre would be built before the waterside flats were sold, they just made it a condition of planning permission. Who develops the site is out of their control.While there are questions to be asked about the Hounslow Arts Trust and the suddenness of the closure as well as their management of the centre, I'm not sure even if they were fully answered we'd be any closer to a solution.The idea that this issue hasn't been politicised is patently ridiculous - it was the main talking point during the recent Brentford West by-election. Now that that is over the important thing is that the council should be pressured to do everything it possibly can to facilitate a community based management of the centre.

Mark Evans ● 1d

Hmmm, not sure you are entirely accurate in your appraisal there.The company/companies supposedly developing these sites are in serious financial problems and have been for some time, well before interest rate rises and Ukraine invasions. They acquired the land but never really had the wherewithal to do the construction.What has upset people is that the council will have been aware of the financial position of the Hounslow Arts Trust, who operated the Waterman’s. There has been a serving councillor on the board of trustees for years. If they didn’t know then they weren’t doing the job properly. There was a feeling of letting the building deteriorate for a while, and the offer from the centre was increasingly poor. The board of trustees carry the blame for that as it wouldn’t have taken much effort to entice more punters through the doors with a wider range of activities and hugely better advertising in the local area and beyond.The promise that a new centre would be built before the old one went was always a dubious one. The council insists a new centre will appear but without any set date it’s a hollow promise. A decent quality community led alternative sounds attractive but in reality it’s a remote aspiration without significant funding from somewhere. Those energy bills will still need paying.The accusations of politicising the issue are ridiculous. Labour councillors are very quick to claim credit for things, even if their input is minimal, yet rapidly distance themselves from negative publicity. It’s not exclusive to Labour, but they are the local authority and do share some of the blame here.

Simon Hayes ● 21d

If you view everything the happens through the prism of every Labour Council being incompetent, corrupt and malign, you are never going to properly understand what is going on.When the council agreed to the deal for the new arts centre to be built as a twin arrangement with the develop of the old centre site nobody was saying 'but what if Russia invades Ukraine and oil prices shoot up and interest rate rise even more because the worst Prime Minister in our history will nearly bankrupt our economy in less than two months?'There are questions to be asked about what has gone on here particularly the short notice given for closure but trying to blame an individual, organisation or comapany doesn't really stack up because it is quite clear why closure was inevitable.The main issue going forward is can the centre be put to good use - it won't be politicians who are ultimately behind this as there isn't money available to fund a revived arts centre but a community led project could provide an answer.

Mark Evans ● 21d

Oh Mr Hayes, we have a lovely Council that is 100% focussed on doing the best possible for residents, they are beyond reproach and their probity is unquestionable!  🤣

Rosco White ● 33d

Follow the money. Developers come and go, cut deals and invariably avoid anything that impinges profit. How much new development in Brentford has LBH’s 40 percent benchmark of social housing? Developers routinely negotiate that aspect down.Developers can also come back with requests for amendments to existing permissions. That happens a lot, usually increasing heights, but can also be used for other aspects of the permission.Anyway, until there’s some solid plan in place, with timescales and funding, Waterman’s future remains uncertain.

Simon Hayes ● 33d

All that I can say is, time will tell. Like Ealing, LBH are routinely outfoxed by developers (the eyesore car park soon to be reclad again is a case in point). This, I fear, will be 'more of the same'.

N V Brooks ● 33d

I'm not a planning expert but all the scenarios you outline here are completely wrong. This is not akin to someone building an illegal extension - the council has ample powers to stop the flats being sold if the developer tried to do so before the arts centre was complete. Even if the council decided to be complicit with the setting aside of the original conditions of the planning permission it would find itself challenged in the courts for breaking the law.The Hounslow Arts Trust remains active and presumably would remain the operator of the new centre therefore they would be working with the developer on the design.As far as I can tell the two developments are too intwined to be treated separately. The only way that the riverside flats could be developed on their own is if Hounslow Council reassumed control of the site and brought in a new developer with a completely new planning application but this seems very unlikely.

Mark Evans ● 33d

I’ve been getting emails about film schedules, as usual, though I expect those to stop. But the only email about the centre’s future was that it’s closing.Maybe there will be good news announcement next week. Maybe not. Unless they’ve found a temporary venue to use then the idea that reopening will be soon is fanciful.

Simon Hayes ● 33d

That's a good point, Keith. Odd that people on the emailing list haven't been kept up to date.

Susan Kelly ● 33d

Or disingenuous perhaps? Why don't they email subscribers to their newsletter as well?

Keith Iddon ● 34d

Waterman's were Tweeting yesterday that they hope to be in their new home soon. I fear that may be delusional.

Susan Kelly ● 34d

Watermans 'ceasing to be' takes all of the pressure off the developers to do anything more than hang up a 'coming soon' sign knowing that there is no urgency as there is no tenant with whom to liaise over 'design details'. They can then demolish the current Watermans and Max Factor sites build the expensive riverside apartments, sell them and then worry about whatever little penalty LBH imposes for not delivering a "world class arts centre".

N V Brooks ● 34d

How do you work that out? The closure of Watermans doesn't have any impact on the conditions in the planning application. The requirement to build the Arts Centre first remains and, as far as I can see, the statements made by the council and councillors are unequivocal that these conditions need to be met.

Mark Evans ● 34d

Even the Councillor who was a former Waterman's Trustes admits to confusion but the 'tie-in' between the old site and the commitment to build a new centre is most definitely broken.

N V Brooks ● 35d

That's not what I understand the situation to be but I haven't been following it in detail. The planning permission for the riverside flats remains conditional on the replacement Watermans being built - nothing has changed in this regard. The council could possibly allow a variation but they have given no indication that they intend to do this.

Mark Evans ● 35d

What a tangled web they weave etc....

Keith Iddon ● 35d

My understanding of reading the posts from Cllr. Guy Lambert is that the developer can now proceed with demolition before OPP expires without any obligation to begine development of a replacement arts centre.  Watermans vacating the site facilitates this.

N V Brooks ● 35d

The mischief of LBH is that as recently as October it was insisting that the redevelopment would definitely go ahead. There was no mention of closing the centre in the interim or that the Waterman’s was ‘no longer viable’.  Cllr Rhys Williams sits on the board of trustees and must have been aware of discussions to close the centre before any new facility was built.We hear a lot about the costs of building, etc, and somehow the blame always shifts to central government, whereas in this case it’s the precarious finances of the developer that has pulled the rug from underneath the plan.One solution is for the councillor to find a new developer and the compulsory purchase the site. This happened in Ealing with Filmworks when that development ground to a halt.

Simon Hayes ● 35d

I don't think that is correct. My understanding is that it remains the case that the developer can't sell the riverside flats until the Arts Centre is built. All that has changed is that the site is now effectively vacant.

Mark Evans ● 35d

I am sorry Mark but LBH are culpable on this.AFAIK, the reloaction and redevelopment of Waterman's on the old Brentford Police Station site was inextricably linked to the redevlopment of the old Waterman's/Max Factor site.All that LBH has achieved by releasing the developer from the condition to redevelop is release the funds from the sale of the freehold on the old site. There is no guarantee that a new centre of any form will be built as a result of this action.  As to "blocking riverside access" that was the whole point of the location which was meant to stage riverside exhibitions and events but only (very) rarely did so.  The easy answer would be to leave the sites extant until a developer willing to meet their obligations could be found.

N V Brooks ● 35d

There are people on here who would moan about the impact on the white stick industry if a Labour Council invented a cure for blindness but the reality is that it is hard to see what else Hounslow could have done.The root of the current problem is the original design of the current Watermans, energy inefficient, expensive to maintain, poor build quality and blocking riverside access.That it had to be rebuilt at some point was clear but even pre-Covid there was little chance that there would be sufficient funding to use the existing site so the twin project idea must have looked like a neat solution. That it looks like blowing up because of high interest rates, poor flat sales and ballooning construction costs is not really Hounslow Council's fault. Amongst all the criticism, there doesn't seem to be much notion of how this situation could be resolved which probably indicates there is no easy answer.

Mark Evans ● 35d

No surprise there Simon.

Keith Iddon ● 38d

It did take 13 years for a new cinema to open in Ealing. The likelihood is that it might take that long for Waterman’s to reopen in Brentford, if it reopens at all.The developers are pleading poverty and Hounslow Council has shown itself to be as poorly run and short-sighted as its Ealing counterpart.

Simon Hayes ● 38d

I would say that the Ealing Project is the cheapest of the local cinemas. The ads can drag on a bit. I always take my Kindle.

Susan Kelly ● 39d

Is the Ealing Project the same one that last time I went,I watched 40 mins of adverts before the film began and was charged through the nose for the privilege?

Keith Iddon ● 39d

I used to go there quite regularly and it was a good venue but stopped when ActOne opened. With the Ealing Project and Picturehouse in one direction and Vue offering cheap tickets in Shepherd's Bush on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, it wasn't the best option any more.

Mark Evans ● 41d