Forum Topic

New Box Junctions 2023

Saw a sign today at the Junction of Leeland Terrace and Broadway advising new box junction to be implemented soon. Further details here: https://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/201152/roads_highways_and_pavements/2920/highway_improvement_works

Andy Hamm ● 416d66 Comments

Surely not, no one could support such an abject failure.Failed on  housing starts.Failed on knife crime.Failed on managing the police service.Failed on managing the excesses of TfL.Delivered the Elizabeth Line (partially) but woefully over budget.Please do remember that Khan was in office for almost four years before we had even heard of the pandemic before anyone uses that as an excuse for his object failure. Since the office was reinstated London has had three Mayors. They have all been, without exception, utter and total rubbish.

N V Brooks ● 390d

Don't annoy his cheerleader Nigel!

Peter King ● 390d

If only there were dedicated traffic officers worthy of being called Traffic Division anymore. Their numbers have been slashed (46% fewer, source:Action Vision Zero ) under Khan while EVERY other police service has seen a rise in Traffic Officer numbers.Soon, the only officers left will all be investigating each other.

N V Brooks ● 390d

Given the choice I'd rather the rank & file police concentrated on removing racist, homophobic & misogynistic officers from their ranks. Let the traffic cops deal with motoring offences. That's what they're there for.

Patrick Hollywood ● 390d

Sorry my earlier post should have said driven or ridden.

N V Brooks ● 390d

That is why I said driving or cycling!And yes I have seen cyclists 'bewildered' in the Box at the bottom of the West Cross Route.

N V Brooks ● 390d

Nigel, this is anything but a cyclist running a red light. In fact, have you ever seen a cyclist or a pedestrian block a yellow box junction?

Ben Owen ● 390d

Yes a bit like the red lights routinely driven ridden through. simply needs enforcement but police are far too busy weeding each other out.

N V Brooks ● 390d

>A large sign requesting ALL road users to signal clearly and correctly could in my view lead to that junction flowing better and being a lot safer all round.What makes you think this will be taken notice of when so many drivers can't won't or don't take notice of this one?  ----------  20  --  --------

Paul James ● 390d

I should add that if I were a driver participating in an eastbound queue and saw somebody wanting to turn right out of Leeland Terrace I'd hang back and let them go, many people do, but many don't.

Paul James ● 394d

A driver turning right onto Uxbridge Road from Leeland Terrace cannot enter the box junction and stop in it because it's there to stop drivers blocking the Uxbridge Road west bound traffic.And yes you've got a problem if the east bound traffic lane is solid as you'll have to wait for somebody to let you all the way across, and if that's a problem there, at what point do we start asking, why are there too many cars!?

Paul James ● 394d

One of the big problems is the large amount of drivers who do not bother to use their indicators and signal clearly.This is very prevalent at the A4 Junction of South Ealing Road and has been for a very long time now.Even the buses rarely now signal correctly yet used to be a great example of how to use this sort of junction correctly. A large sign requesting ALL road users to signal clearly and correctly could in my view lead to that junction flowing better and being a lot safer all round.It's laziness and too many gadgets in vehicles and rather poor indicator switches in many new vehicles which does not help. But the confusion of Box Junction use and in particular where a clear exit is not always visible or print to sudden stoppages as well as poor driver signalling which is being ignored and their use as a cash cow being paramount rather than actually sorting the problem in a simpler and way first.  Some of these will be better but the ones that do not work or act as traps need to be sorted out.

Raymond Havelock ● 395d

Most people would not be indifferent to the potential danger to other motorists even if the primary responsibility was on the cars behind them to adhere to the regulations and not enter the yellow junction box on the crossing.Even if vehicles at the rear were not stopping on the crossing, the driver at the front of the queue has to consider the need to keep moving forward to stop those behind getting stuck the other side of the barrier. At this junction it can be a relatively short time between trains coming through.

Mark Evans ● 396d

A look, highway code rule 291A level crossing is where a road crosses a railway or tramway line. Approach and cross it with care. Never drive onto a crossing until the road is clear on the other side and do not get too close to the car in front. Never stop or park on, or near, a crossing.

Paul James ● 396d

>they will be conscious that vehicles behind them are crossing the rail tracks.I would never ever just follow another vehicle across a railway track, I would wait for it to clear the track leaving space for my vehicle before I proceed.Railway crossings are like box junctions, but with potentially fatal consequences if you stop on them, so drivers should never put themselves in a situation where they MIGHT have to stop on them.

Paul James ● 396d

The problems at Goldsmith Road wouldn't be a result of driver ignorance. If a driver enters the yellow junction box to turn right at the moment the barrier at the level crossing is raised there is a risk that the stream of backed up traffic will block the vehicle. They aren't going to let the car merge because they will be conscious that vehicles behind them are crossing the rail tracks.The vehicle turning right will be blocking the eastbound traffic that had previously been waiting for the barrier to raise. There doesn't seem to me to be a problem currently at this junction with right turning traffic emerging because the KEEP CLEAR sign, although advisory, stops people entering without a clear exit which the yellow junction box wouldn't do.

Mark Evans ● 396d

I'm a driver, I understand how to use them, other people should, or they can always hand back their licence.

Paul James ● 397d

I think this is a good demonstration of why these junction boxes are confusing and best avoided unless there are clear benefits.There is a clear and important distinction between what and I are saying and it does matter in the context of the junction was talking about earlier. You can enter the junction box to turn right whether or not your exit is clear. With a Keep Clear marking, although it is advisory, people tend to adhere to it so wouldn't lay across the road hoping to merge on the other side. At the Goldsmith Road junction this could mean that eastbound traffic waiting for the barrier to be raised at the level crossing could get stuck.

Mark Evans ● 397d

Er, that's what I said :D

Paul James ● 397d

Absolutely correct. Thankfully Uxbridge Road in Hanwell and West Ealing is not wide enough for someone to cut across lanes to block your exit after you have entered the box.

N V Brooks ● 397d

There is a link to the advice from TfL below.It makes clear that you can enter the junction box when turning right and can follow other vehicles doing so and won't be committing an offence if you stop."You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right."https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/yellow-box-junctions

Mark Evans ● 397d

No, your exit has to be clear when you enter the box, it's just that if oncoming traffic is preventing you from turning right it's ok to enter the box junction and stop in it.

Paul James ● 397d

I think, if you are turning right across the junction, then you can enter even if your exit is not clear.

Mark Evans ● 397d

>Yegods, has somebody in Ealing Council actually used their noddle?I was reassured to see that the yellow box junction (for the Uxbridge Rd junction with Boston Road/Cherington Road) is split into two yellow boxes, such that Uxbridge Rd eastbound traffic, that is wishing to turn right into Boston Road, can enter the junction free of the 'yellow box' road markings. This has puzzled me, why the gap?If you are turning right from Uxbridge Road there then you would be able to enter a box junction that spanned the whole junction to do so, as long as your exit is clear at the time.

Paul James ● 397d

Yegods, has somebody in Ealing Council actually used their noddle? I was reassured to see that the yellow box junction (for the Uxbridge Rd junction with Boston Road/Cherington Road) is split into two yellow boxes, such that Uxbridge Rd eastbound traffic, that is wishing to turn right into Boston Road, can enter the junction free of the 'yellow box' road markings.

Tony Heath ● 398d

Paul, I'm slightly confused about your question because surely the answer is self evident. A driver might not be able to complete a right turn because of eastbound traffic. A driver might not be able to complete a left turn because, assuming the junction box carries on west of the junction, a car might be blocking their exit. I think but I am not sure, a right turn across the box from Leeland Terrace would be allowed, and in any case the camera would not be angled to record number plates. However, I am not so confident that I would actually risk this move until I had it confirmed that it was okay. Therefore, the yellow junction boxes which are supposed to make it easier to move in and out of Leeland Terrace may end up making it more difficult. The only clear benefit is that they would reduce the chances of the eastbound carriage way being held up by vehicles trying to turn right into Leeland Terrace but that benefit can be achieved by Keep Clear road markings.

Gordon Southwell ● 398d

Cyclists and e-scooter riders although they should not in most cases be on the pavement don't damage kerbs and paving stones making them dangerous for pedestrians and mobility scooter users to the same extent that motorists of all sorts of much heavier vehicles do.

Philippa Bond ● 399d

Leeland Terrace and Uxbridge Road box junction is twice as long as it needs to be. Why because the longer it is the more money it will collect. Traffic flows would improve if it were half the length. Someone is in charge who really doesn't understand any more than the camera and the income. Same method as the LTN. Keep changing the signage (4 times near us) because it was wrong before,(like an experiment) but don't return the fines. A sad sad sad state of affairs

Arthur Breens ● 400d

Hear hear. A keep clear sign would suffice, alleviate the fear of a wheel being 1mm in box & a fine.TFL may care to educate their bus drivers to leave Chapel Rd jct Uxbridge Rd W13 clear.Amount of times I have been blocked trying to get through to then turn right up Drayton Green Rd

Peter Yale ● 402d

Nail very much on head.

N V Brooks ● 402d

Although it is probably correct to say that you shouldn't enter a yellow box until the exit is clear that isn't what happens in reality. If drivers did this it would grind London to a halt immediately. If you observe behaviour at yellow boxes you will see that drivers will enter them if they perceive traffic is continuing to flow on the other side. Personally I tend to drive very slowly across them to ensure that the exit has had time to clear. However, you can't do this at junctions with more than one entry point as there is a risk of another car nipping in front of you and blocking your exit. The potential for collisions at these junctions as drivers make unexpected movements for fear of a fine is high.

Mark Evans ● 402d

>If I was emerging onto Uxbridge Road from Leeland Terrace am I correct in saying I could enter the yellow junction box and remain static if I was turning right but not if I am turning left.Neither I think?!Why wouldn't you be able to turn right?Why wouldn't you be able to turn left?

Paul James ● 407d

A box junction which I imagine could cause  issues & consequently fines, is the one by Wedt Ealing Station. Need to keep zebra crossing clear, exit from Manor Road & watch for a stream of cars pipping your place so you get caught in box junction.It’s too long

Peter Yale ● 408d

As I clearly stated, my exit was clear when I entered the junction which is particularly wide to allow uninhibited egress from Hammersmith bus station.  It your clear exit is blocked after you enter 5he box then, as I now know, your own video evidence is vital

N V Brooks ● 408d

Paul, you may well be right although Nigel's experience shows that if you get caught on camera the burden of proof falls on you. It probably is the case that someone with time and good knowledge of the law could get a PCN cancelled in certain circumstances but most people will end up paying even if they have committed no offence. The council has been asked a direct question about whether ANPR enforcement will be used at these junctions but declined to answer which must be taken as an indication that the answer is yes. The way these cameras work is to snap any vehicle that stops moving so you will get a PCN issued to you whatever the circumstances.Possibly this would be acceptable if there was a serious issue at a junction which a yellow box would reduce but, at the one I am most familiar with, I think it might actually make things worse for the reasons given earlier.

Mark Evans ● 408d

>It means that you have to proceed with caution but also very likely to find yourself unable to exit without stopping even if simply going ahead.Only enter the box junction if your exit is clear at the time, it's not hard, I've made that left turn there loads of times without issue.

Paul James ● 408d

The issue is the placement of cameras.  I was fined for entering (when my exit was totally clear) the 'notorious' box junction under Hammersmith flyover as you turn onto Fulham Palace Road. A taxi, realising that he was going to get stuck, cut across me and blocked my exit. LBH&F would not accept my appeal as they only had a camera trained on the entrance to the junction and asked me to provide 3vid3nce (one reason that I now have a dashcam). A nice little earner for them.

N V Brooks ● 408d

"It leaves open the possibility that another vehicle could enter the junction box after you but get ahead blocking your exit."No, no offence committed then, if you enter the box when you exit is clear, and then a vehicle blocks your exit after that, no offence. I know people who have had tickets cancelled with this defence.

Paul James ● 408d

Yes Paul, I'm afraid you have missed the point. It's common sense to not enter unless your exit is clear.It's not the rules but the practical application.And why these are not generally used in smaller areas without room for manoeuvre.What is not clear is how you can ascertain if your exit is clear when turning left or right when obstructions or pedestrian lights block the view or exit.Example is the concrete pillar of the M4 and a pedestrian crossing at Windmill road as well as a centre obelisk which prevents a view and the fact that you have to look left and now both ways for two way cycling. It means that you have to proceed with caution but also very likely to find yourself unable to exit without stopping even if simply going ahead.Coming out of the former car park exit in West Ealing and turning right is always difficult because of an obscured view of traffic from the right, often ending up with a stranded vehicle in the westbound side.Keep Clear on both sides would allow a better chance for that to happen less.Cannot see how the Yellow Grid makes that any different appear from the delays of hesitation. The obscured view will remain.Most large box junctions are deliberately clear of obscured views. Hence no real excuse to enter and block. Again it's more often than not two close running buses or long trailered HGVs stopping sooner than expected or misjudging the flow.The junction at the clock tower is more pragmatic as the exit does get blocked but that is more often than not caused by sudden stoppages in Boston Road which prevents right tuning vehicles and again is often blind sighted by vehicles turing left into the same road and suddenly stopping.  It's usually HGV and Buses that block the road here.

Raymond Havelock ● 408d

Paul, you may be right but the your claim that 'The offence is committed if you enter it when your exit is blocked' is not confirmed by the text of the legislation that you quote. It leaves open the possibility that another vehicle could enter the junction box after you but get ahead blocking your exit.The point is probably moot anyway because the expectation is that this will be enforced by an ANPR camera which will be programmed to take a picture of your number plate when it is not moving and will not be looking for any potential mitigation.

Mark Evans ● 408d

I was responding to Tony's apparent misunderstanding of the rules around box junctions.

Paul James ● 408d

You’ve missed the point Paul.Some of these new box junctions aren’t really the right ‘solution’ to a problem that probably doesn’t exist. As others have said, a keep clear marking would suffice, but then they won’t stick a camera on those to gather fines.

Simon Hayes ● 408d

It's not and never has been an offence to stop in a box junction.The offence is committed if you enter it when your exit is blocked."Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11/made

Paul James ● 408d

They are only really sensible for large junctions.This is a very poor excuse to use such and in small spaces with very little clearway.I wish they would stop gerrymandering and just get on with doing things pragmatically and not for policy *$%£@ licking.

Raymond Havelock ● 409d

I think most motorists know that you can turn right in a yellow box. The specific problem on Churchfield Road is that currently vehicles will generally observe the keep clear sign and this allows the queues of traffic to clear when the barrier opens.However, now a driver from Goldsmith Road may move into the yellow box where the keep clear markings were but be unable to get out as the traffic being held up on the opposite side of the barrier is released. This means that the traffic queueing eastbound will get stuck until the junction has clear which can take some time if there have been two trains passing through the crossing quite close together and the barrier hasn't been raised between them.

Mark Evans ● 409d

With the intention of turning right, entering a yellow box junction (as permitted in the Highway Code) is always a case of 'Do you feel lucky, punk?' Reason? There is no way of knowing if 'oncoming traffic' will have cleared the intended (right turn) exit when the traffic lights have changed. It's for that reason that motorists, wishing to turn right, hang back from entering the box junction, contrary to the advice given in the Highway Code.

Tony Heath ● 409d

Mark Evans is quite right. All that is needed is ' KEEP CLEAR' and white lines.That keeps the junction clear for exiting traffic and more importantly a clear line of view for emerging traffic into the opposite  direction. Simple clear and effective.Cannot see the point of a Yellow Box junction at this point as there will be hesitation from the great many road users who when turning right or left who are not sure whether they can enter it if their exit is not clear and more to the point that they cannot see if the way is clear.  Similarly, do you move into it if  it is not a completely clear road ahead?  Or indeed is it purely for through traffic?  This is very apparent at the Windmill Road junction in Brentford. The lack of signage does not help but the hesitation causes congestion and near misses.And if going by one suggestion that this does not apply to Cyclists ( and no doubt, because they cannot be prosecuted will ignore it. The whole thing is nullified as a benefit.It seems like a pointless waste of money when a much cheaper, effective and clearer alternative should be used firstI can only assume that this is purely to make money from errors of unclarity from a loophole which permits cameras and thus make money. So few contest these, even though they have a high chance of winning, but it's so time consuming and tricky it's win win for the authorities. Further undermining trust in a fair society.Such a simple device exists which can have an advisory for Cyclists to proceed with caution.

Raymond Havelock ● 409d

Can someone clear up how these work for me?
If I was emerging onto Uxbridge Road from Leeland Terrace am I correct in saying I could enter the yellow junction box and remain static if I was turning right but not if I am turning left. If this is right this seems to me to raise the danger that traffic turning right will not be aware than they can stop in the junction box and either not move forward causing further delays or be afraid to stop and aggressively push into the eastbound lane for fear of a fine. Potential for conflict exists westbound as well as a vehicle turning left may block a car in the junction box leading people to drive aggressively to stop this happening.  Similarly people turning right into Leeland Terrace may be unaware that they can stop making them unwilling to yield to any westbound cyclists. Are people actually complaining of a problem here which has caused the council to put this box in because it seems to me their solution may be a retrograde step.

Gordon Southwell ● 409d

I am struggling to understand why there is any issue with cyclists riding across yellow junction boxes. Like any other road user isn't this okay as long as they are moving?I don't have more than a passing familiarity with the junctions other than the one on Churchfield Road by Goldsmith Road. There is already a very visible KEEP CLEAR marking on the road which is generally well observed.It is near a railway crossing and queues develop here when the barriers are down. The concern for me would be is that right turning traffic would now be allowed to enter the yellow junction box blocking waiting traffic. If it does this as the barrier goes up it will get stuck there as traffic moves in the opposite direction and will be reluctant to give way conscious that the barrier could be lowered with vehicles behind them.Putting a yellow box junction here seems to have no benefit and may well reduce traffic flow so if it has been done simply to provide a revenue stream from an ANPR camera then this isn't good.

Mark Evans ● 409d

Actually Box Junctions are for Cyclists too. They are for ALL road users on the public Highway to observe a clear access. Cyclists riding across a clear access box junction are not only putting themselves at risk but nullifying the whole reason Box Junctions exist.As it is several Box Junctions do not make sense as they are devoid of correct and clear signage as to which direction the do not enter applies to. Which just snarled up all traffic from uncertainty.These are now abused as cash cows rather than as traffic flow and clearway flow tool. Partly from the lack of clarity of correct use.

Raymond Havelock ● 410d

Ok I get that.However roadworks have temporary lights quite often at fault or not needed.I have sat at lights & the carriageway is permanently reinstated, so no need for them.Mostly Thames Water who mutter & mumble. A friend of mine removes the lights - eases congestion.Motorists are seen as cash cows,the council make it awkward to drive with anti car schemes they force. Sorry “promote”As for pavement’s, far more cyclists & scooters mount them with impunity,than cars

Peter Yale ● 411d

Bit early to be drunk Paul.Box junctions are a good thing, and most drivers would agree with that. Where there might be disagreement is where one is installed that doesn’t seem to be based on rational decision making. Where they don’t work is because of bad habits of a minority of drivers who either don’t understand the rules or don’t care. But that’s people, and being selfish isn’t the exclusive preserve of vehicle drivers, as cyclists prove on a daily basis.What has become obvious is that quite a lot of changes are being made to roads that aren’t improving safety, smoothing traffic flow or even making the road surface better.It’s also obvious that there is zero co-ordination with road works. South sealing Road is in a near permanent state of being dug up thanks to utility companies. Often the work that’s done takes far longer than scheduled or is simply substandard. They resurfaced my road a couple of years ago. In classic council corner cutting they used a system that’s been proven to be inadequate and the surface is degrading rapidly (the irony being that the resurfacing requires vehicles to drive on it to ‘bed it in’).

Simon Hayes ● 411d

Peter. Box junctions are for drivers, so they don't block other drivers. They are for drivers and driving, not pedestrians, not cyclists, they are for drivers.So it's hilarious we have drivers on here (and everywhere else) complaining about them being introduced to stop drivers blocking other drivers!Same for roadworks, they resurfaced a terrible road near me a while back and it was shut when they did it, and oh the moaning from some, probably the same people moaning it was full of potholes, potholes caused by driving.And then traffic lights, introduced for drivers, that drivers moan about.And what do you think kerbs are for? To stop drivers going up on pavements (ha ha, good luck with that!).

Paul James ● 411d

Don’t get you, understand?

Peter Yale ● 412d

The infrastructure is  for ALL  vehicles not just motor vehicles. Not that you would actually realise that seeing the state of the light jumping and pavement riding by certain unmotorised vehicle users who then, hypocritically despite being car users, bleat incessantly about car use.

N V Brooks ● 412d

Oh dear Paul. You seem bewildered again.All that infrastructure is for all motor vehicles. Not just cars. Buses, vans, lorries, all those things that keep the economy moving.

Simon Hayes ● 412d

Why are traffic lights needed for cars?Why are box junctions needed for cars?Traffic lights and box junctions are both examples of infrastructure for cars.As are kerbs and pavements, zebra crossings etc...And often roadworks.

Paul James ● 412d

& traffic lights road repair works???More explanation

Peter Yale ● 413d

Why’s it needed??Explain

Peter Yale ● 413d

Oh god, the intellectual Lilliputian is back.

N V Brooks ● 413d

They're only need because of drivers, and here you have drivers moaning about them :DSame with traffic lights, and road repair works!

Paul James ● 413d

>>NVB wrote>> it is often almost impossible to exit Cherrington and cross onto Boston Road.Agreed. Just a shame that the PRE will benefit from the fines.

Tony Heath ● 415d

I actually would appreciate 9ne there as it is often almost impossible to exit Cherrington and cross onto Boston Road with buses 9ften the worst offenders.

N V Brooks ● 415d

Also, road sign warnings of an impending new yellow box junction at Hanwell Broadway, at the intersection of Cherington Road, Uxbridge Road, Boston Road (aka Hanwell Clock Tower junction).  That will be a significant money spinner for the PRE.

Tony Heath ● 415d

Seems rather pointless.  Another waste of money or a sly revenue trap?

Raymond Havelock ● 415d

Another kerching opportunity for the clowns at PRE or tfl?

Peter King ● 416d