Forum Topic

The Safety of Women at Night and LTNs

A female neighbour told me she was returning from work late at night in an Uber provided by her employer recently. The driver stopped about 200 yards away from her home by an LTN barrier and said he would go no further. She said he could drive round but he told her he had already been fined several times in LTNs and could only make a living by completely avoiding them. She said she understood and that she would still give him a five star rating if he waited at the drop off for five minutes to give her time to get to her front door as she was terrified by the isolated walk in the deserted badly lit street. He did so with his headlights on and engine running.I can understand the advantage of having fewer vehicles going down a road during the day but at night time few of the reasons for LTNs apply. On the contrary, as any female who gets back late in the evening will tell you, the last thing you want is a complete absence of traffic.

Tricia Arbuthnot ● 1135d56 Comments

I don't know which restriction this would be at but at the one I am most familiar most traffic drives straight through. If a driver stops in confusion generally a passer by will warn them not to proceed.It is hard to understand the reasoning of anybody who would, having seen the signs and stop and then proceed. It can't be that they don't think there will be camera  because there should also be a sign warning that camera enforcement is operating in the area. Presumably the number of people you have seen actually do this is a very low number and can't be said to be representative.

Mark Evans ● 1128d

Everybody I've seen drive through filters absolutely saw the Motor Vehicle Prohibited signs, stopped before them had a think, and then drove through anyway.

Paul James ● 1129d

There are lots of things in this world to object to.  I object to climate change.

Philippa Bond ● 1129d

What about the 11,000 objectors who's voice seems to be ignored for the minority..

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 1131d

" 'I'll do as I please' culture with no acceptance of responsibility."Arguably the root of all evil and most of our current problems, across all facets of life?

Rosco White ● 1131d

As I've mentioned before I live in an LTN area,  I'm.also a driver and a cyclist and  I support the scheme ,when the trial period is up  we can all have our say. This is a public forum we are entitled to an opinion so a bit less of the abuse.

David Burke ● 1131d

Simon  At least it would be electric.  I hope insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you makes you feel better.

Philippa Bond ● 1131d

Great post Raymond..

Philippa Bond ● 1131d

More people were killed and maimed by Horse and Carts and by goods vehicles than now by a long margin.This is because we had led the world in Road safety from all aspects. Whether it be in control of a motorised vehicle, human powered machine or pedestrian.This spared the driving test, licences, insurance, the Highway Code, Kerb Drill, the MOT test, PSV and HGV tests and licences and Operators licences. All constant and where deficient updated.We have one of the lowest accident rates per 1000 in the world and far lower than before the motor vehicle came to being.Now it is all being undone.The LCC ( London County Council) required a Cycling Licence to ride on the roads at school age. This was still mandatory when the GLC/ ILEA ran London schools. Other county councils required similar. Local Boroughs including this one and Hounslow required proof of the RoSPA/ Met Police Cycling Proficiency Certificate to be allowed to cycle to school and that was for secondary schools only.Bikes had to meet legal public road use requirements. Lights,reflectors Mudguards and working brakes on front and rear. Tyres had to have a tread limit just like motor vehicles.It's very easy to gauge the difference. Compare the dreadful riding standards of Moped riders to fully tested and full licence holding Motor Cyclists.  Worlds apart. That's the consequence of proper training and full understanding of what the machine and it's operator is capable of and can be controlled.Road signage and markings are not just for motor vehicles they are there for all road users and pedestrians. Pavements are there for pedestrians, not vehicles of any sort, and that is also clearly defined.The exception is you can scoot a bicycle on a pavement. I have barely seen anyone who can do this now and yet it was a fail in the test if you cannot ride with one hand or scoot your machine.All that has gone out the window.  Road safety is being seriously compromised by an "I'll do as I please" culture with no acceptance of responsibility.Commit an offence in a motor vehicle and you can easily be caught and prosecuted.Commit the same offence on a Bike or a Moped or a scooter and you cannot.Yet the law is required to be enforced evenly.  It is now all about moneymaking using any handy fad as an excuse.  The focus in on created pseudo- offences which are easy to target which does not deal with those who do drive irresponsibly and dangerously and do need to be weeded out.

Raymond Havelock ● 1131d

Mark Evans. You might be new to this group. Believe me Paul is well known for his lecturing.

Simon Hayes ● 1131d

Don't recall having been lectured by Paul James. He has asked some reasonable questions in this thread and some of his point have been eminently sensible. He has the virtue of not believing everybody who disagrees with him is 'half witted'.

Mark Evans ● 1131d

Reasonably well put Mr Hayes!  🙂

Rosco White ● 1132d

What utter nonsense. Most kids round my way walk, and cycle, locally. They did so for years before some genius decided to block off the roads. So don’t make assumptions - a very halfwitted way to go about things.Like other people on these threads you see the world in absolute terms. Cars = bad, drivers = evil, etc, etc. It’s wrong, it’s boring and frankly you should apply a bit more intelligence before posting.Like Paul James and others you constantly lecture the rest of us how we should be living our lives. Yet you have no authority, legal, political or moral, to do so. Just a constant barrage of hectoring and lecturing.Walk in the roads if you wish. Just don’t come crying when you get squashed by an Amazon van!

Simon Hayes ● 1132d

Well it is the same where there are drivers who think that cyclists should all be just be travelling in the gutters and that the road is just for them.  It is blatant bullying.  This thread shows how important it is to know where you live and how to get back there and how satnavs are not all they are cracked up to be.  Always travelling the same way somewhere doesn't give you enough knowledge of the area you live in.  I sometimes wonder how well local children actually know their own home area when they are bundled into and out of cars all the time and over time-tabled.

Philippa Bond ● 1132d

A sweeping generalisation there about drivers.Sounds like the same flawed logic used by Ealing's transport 'planners'.

N V Brooks ● 1132d

Hmm, SatNavs. My street has had a gate at the top of it for over 35 years. We still get people zooming down here and then turning round-both cars and lorries. Including the police.

Terry Freestone ● 1132d

Funny how people who just drive don't consider the needs of other road users and how those who walk have to cross roads to get where they are going and need more space to socially distance from other pavement users!

Philippa Bond ● 1132d

Funny how the people most enthusiastic about LTNs tend not to live in them.And walking in the road is a very silly idea. These are low traffic neighbourhoods, not no traffic ones.

Simon Hayes ● 1133d

I'm with you now. There still data fields missing that would be needed for access restrictions to be accurately reflected on SatNavs so this information isn't much use to Google/Waze for instance. They would be all over it if it was complete.

Mark Evans ● 1133d

"to hunt out local newspapers across the UK"The Gazette is the one official public record, there's only one place to look for everything.https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

Paul James ● 1133d

There are also plenty of 20mph signs everywhere and it is time that we had more fines for those who don't seem to think that they apply to them.  A shame but there it is.  Oh and BTW we can walk in the road - this isn't the USA.  Thank Goodness.

Philippa Bond ● 1133d

but they should be visible at night.There is still a problem with the satnavs which need the companies that own them to sort them out.If you don't update your satnav then it is your own problem.I used to think that there were an awful lot of Toyota Priuses that kerb crawled.  They too need more management.

Philippa Bond ● 1133d

I'm sure Google would be more than happy to employ a few thousand extra people to hunt out local newspapers across the UK and check for announcement which might have implications for their maps and then manually copy across anything relevant. They might need quite a large number if all papers are as difficult to find as The Gazette which I'm not even sure still exists.The problem with this solution is that not all the necessary data fields would be in the notice. An easier solution would be for councils to make the map data available with a taxonomy used according to open data standards which could be updated live by the Sat Nav providers.

Mark Evans ● 1133d

" so it is the local authorities which are being tardy in supplying it"The information is up two weeks on The Gazette before it's implemented, it's the one place that councils are mandated to put it, and it does, every time.

Paul James ● 1133d

Agreed. Well thought out and designed LTNs may ultimately be an absolute necessity if public transport doesn't get back to its former capacity.However, I'm not sure primary legislation would be necessary. As has been pointed out, up to date data on road restrictions is something that SatNav suppliers would be very keen to have so it is the local authorities which are being tardy in supplying it. It is hard to avoid the suspicion that they know there will be a fine bonanza until the apps and devices are updated.There should be protocols to allow the designation of certain roads as only allowable as a final destination in Sat Navs and the immediate recategorisation of others to discourage traffic if they are found to be subject to a high degree of rat running.A system of licensing or trademarking for SatNavs could be introduced in which the supplier commits to having uptodate map information including restrictions and this is supplied to them free by the authorities. This would achieve the objectives of LTNs nationwide for a fraction of what has been spent on them so far.

Mark Evans ● 1133d

" The algorhythms are out of control and need legislation."Yes, this!

Paul James ● 1133d

the signs that matter are the "motor vehicles prohibited" signs.Drivers like you and I are trained to distinguish official signs from everything else.If you think they are illegal drive past them and then challenge the fine.

Paul James ● 1133d

I don't understand what you mean when you say 'They can be overridden.'

Andy Jones ● 1133d

Why do drivers not venture in to bus lanes when not in use. Fear of getting a fine, it is down to perception... even though the sign clear says otherwise. The saying goes "once bitten twice shy" and drivers who have received a fine tend not to go back Regardless 🙄 Delivery drivers are charging more these residents will pay dearly for living in these ghettos.

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 1133d

They can be overridden.

Philippa Bond ● 1133d

Why would Google and other SatNav providers not want to accept updates from local authorities - that data would be very valuable to them?

Andy Jones ● 1134d

Ubers should have up to date satnavs and up to date satnavs should have to accept updates given to them by Councils.  The algorhythms are out of control and need legislation.

Philippa Bond ● 1134d

The methodology with the way East Germany was run locally and the layers of untruths that this council and similar organisations now deem as normal means of operation is really worrying.I've lost my battle with my firm to remain in this part of London and it's all these measures,restrictions, levies, fines, interference by  and constant barrages of 'expert advisors' and their ignorant gravy train mentality, that makes it indefensible for a business to warrant being here anymore. So more career jobs will melt away.

Raymond Havelock ● 1134d

So glad i moved away. This is really crazy. But ealing council have form on these money making schemes. shoving all traffic onto the uxbridge road and then removing bus laybys will make it slower and more polluted. given the pollution fines maybe action could be taken to prosecute ealing council for uxbridge road pollution?? thank god the stupid tram project got cancelled. so taking a car on a 3 mile detour through slow traffic when a half mile smooth and slow journey would suffice to deliver a disabled person or for a van to make a delivery. Even the mps think this is stupid. but the lack of meaningful consultation is really insulting.

Peter Chadburn ● 1134d

Sorry..whose for who's.

Keith Iddon ● 1134d

Nothing can get away from the fact that this is a badly thought out and cynically introduced scheme who's timing beggars believe, it being in the middle of a pandemic when people are very reluctant to mix with others on buses or trains and who want to cut down their journey times to a minimum.Couple that with it being winter and you have a perfect storm of intransigent bureaucracy in action.I would have thought it a good idea to at least delay this scheme for a year or 18 months from when it was introduced so that we can get covid out of the way.

Keith Iddon ● 1134d

Doesn't the fact that so many people are getting fines suggest there is an issue with the signs? Otherwise what is the explanation for so many being issued? It can't be that people assume they will get away with it because the experience of modern day driving in London is that enforcement is extremely effective.

Andy Jones ● 1134d

Culmington.  Why this changes things after submitting I'll never know.Cannot get the new  version to work on my laptop- it's too old apparently.

Raymond Havelock ● 1134d

Culmination Road for starters. The mandatory signs are on the extreme sides of the barrier and right next to them are a left turn sign and no mandatory restriction plate.This type of sign is supposed to be a warning sign 40 to 80 metres before the restriction which is supposed to be a repeater sign.Other signs have been placed out of the sight line of road vehicles and on sections of roads which require extra attention and caution. Not helped by cyclists riding on the wrong side of the road, without lights and 4 abreast. All of which are contraventions of the road traffic act and pedestrians who seem to think it's now Ok to walk up the middle of live roadsFurthermore new changes or road schemes are supposed to carry additional signage in advance and marked alternative routes.Signs are obscured by trees and or other illuminated signs and positioned so at night they are out of line with headlights.All photographed and documented and all ignored to date by the relevant officers.

Raymond Havelock ● 1134d

Signage like that is not acceptable by the highways.. the signs must follow set size and dimensions. Signs attached to a planters are not legal

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 1134d

I live in one of the roads in question , near the Grosvenor pub , and if you can't see / read the signs on the planters, the question must be  should you be driving a car ?

David Burke ● 1134d

"Signage remains unclear and contradictory in places."Where?

Paul James ● 1134d

Signage remains unclear and contradictory in places.Larger deliveries are now carrying surcharges if in an LTN or CPZ and it's likely that Free deliveries will gradually cease as operating costs and time increases in LTNs are impacting on profit. Some delivery companies have had to treble route allocations just to cover the delays to meet their same day delivery contract obligations.That reduces the incomes of those delivery workers who are having to accept reduced payloads by up to two thirds.So it's only a matter of time, but like all day CPZs, goods and services will become a premium chargeable luxury for all those who live within them.Fine if you have money to burn.

Raymond Havelock ● 1134d

Most Uber drivers use Waze which will primarily identify traffic restrictions by tracking the flow of existing members. The fact that so many drivers continue to pass through the barriers at the points where the cameras are means that the system has difficulty picking up that it is there. Eventually the map will be updated to include the restriction but not before the drivers have already received fines.The unpredictability and sudden introduction of camera enforced restrictions has led to caution from taxi drivers in areas they are unfamiliar with.

Mark Evans ● 1134d

I often used an Uber before the lockdown .When booking you page in your pickup point and your destination. The driver then follows a pre ordained  route on a sat nav. so there shouldn't be any surprise about LTNs if the sat nav. is operating correctly , it should have all the correct information.

David Burke ● 1134d

This is just the start minicab drivers talk they will not take a hit on their income by accepting fines.... next on the list will be delivery vans drivers who will avoid LTN'S zones. As fines start to bit over 6000 fines issued in the few months after the LTN'S were introduced.These hair-brain ideas were given the green light by Boris and introduced by this fanatical Labour Council without proper thought or consultation about the impact or harm it has or would cause ordinary people going about their lawful business..the residents in these areas will voice their objections as time goes on. Over 11000 objections and they still say its a good idea for who. Pushing or kicking the can down the road is no solution and will not improve the air we breath overall!!! and the sooner these barriers are removed the better and a new solution is found.

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 1135d

Cabs? Shouldn’t these residents be walking or cycling as we are now instructed to do? Using motor vehicles leads to indolence and slackness of the mind!But I have heard of taxi firms refusing to take bookings from people living in LTNs.

Simon Hayes ● 1135d

Doesn't the fact that drivers clearly are refusing to enter LTNs suggest that, whatever you may say, there is a reason for them not to?If the fare is pre-booked for an agreed rate then it will make no difference. If the driver is working for Uber or Bolt then the detour will bring in a few pennies unlike for black cabs. Also remember many people use services like Uber Pool which takes people to different destinations on the basis they are on a similar route therefore detours are impractical.There was a report on the BBC today making the same point in a video she recorded as she was walking home late at night. Drivers using the apps to get customers are terrified of bad reviews so they won't do this sort of thing on a whim.

Mark Evans ● 1135d

Typical blame someone else for their short sightings. LTN'S as I said so many times will create and have created ghetto. Sorry but if I was a driver of a vehicle I would not be prepared to take a fine for a fare regardless..

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 1135d

No reason whatsoever for a minicab/taxi driver to drop someone short of their destination. If anything, I would have thought that they would relish the extra revenue from going 'the long way round'.

N V Brooks ● 1135d

Paul, that isn't a solution rather it's an aspiration. Of course in theory a minicab driver should never need to stop anywhere but their passenger's doorstep but clearly this is not happening in practice. The council were quite proud about the low level of PCNs being given to people resident in LTNs but what we are not getting further details about who is getting caught. Inevitably a very high proportion of fines will be going to minicab drivers who, as a consequence are going to develop a highly cautious strategy when it comes to LTNs. It may be possible with the guidance of a resident to avoid a fine on the way in but when trying to negotiate your way out in the dark experience has clearly taught them that the risks of getting a fine is high. It is easy for someone with a comfortable income to conclude that they should just drive their passengers exactly where they requested but a £65 will wipe out a good proportion of what a minicab driver can earn in a day at the moment. They can't be obliged by law to enter LTNs so wishing that they would will not resolve what is clearly a serious problem.

Gordon Southwell ● 1135d

"but what solution would you propose?"that taxi drivers should drop somebody at their door if they are requested to do so.They don't have to go through LTN barriers to do this, anywhere...

Paul James ● 1135d

"but what solution would you propose?"that taxi drivers should drop somebody at their door if they are requested to do so.They don't have to go through LTN barriers to do this, anywhere...

Paul James ● 1135d

The reason was given in my post. He had received LTN fines and therefore had stopped driving through them so he could maintain his income. Personally I think he should have driven my friend to her door but you have to see it from his point of view, these restrictions are badly signed particular at night time and a taxi driver will often be in areas they are unfamiliar with. My friend was initially unhappy with the driver, which is why the issue of the star rating came up, but when he explained she was sympathetic. The piece of information you really need to take from this is that what you think drivers should do doesn't matter, it is what they are actually doing which is becoming unwilling to venture all the way into LTNs. This is compromising women's safety. If you want to blame the drivers that is down to you but what solution would you propose?

Tricia Arbuthnot ● 1135d

(without having to drive through a filter)

Paul James ● 1135d

There is no reason at all why the driver couldn't drop outside the door.

Paul James ● 1135d