Forum Topic

Renaming Havelock Road

Can't say I have much of a problem with this as I've always been of the view that people should have the first say in what the place they live in is called. I say that as someone with family from Derry and it irks me do hear it called Londonderry on the BBC. Perhaps we should also be taking a look at the Cromwell Road.However, this is likely to be expensive so perhaps, as the Victorians used to raise money for statues by public subscription Ealing Council should do the opposite and if people want a statue took down or a road renamed the council should only have to bear a portion of the cost and the rest should be paid for by an online fundraising campaign.

Christine Mulligan ● 1783d67 Comments

Can't argue with that.

Rosco White ● 1754d

The real point is, we are the UK or GB, our past was a Colonial one, therefore our history reflects this. Live with it or live without it somewhere else. But don't tell us the native population to remove or rename out identity, culture and history, It is ours to keep.

Leslie Bailey ● 1754d

Mentioning Sir Keir Starmer, So far Keir Starmer is the only Parliamentary leader who has sheepishly and grudgingly admitted that BLM the organisation want to defund the police etc.So now the opposition have done so, let us see our elected Government and Home Secretary do the same, or would that mean having to outlaw them, and Government is afraid of the backlash from their followers?

Leslie Bailey ● 1763d

Boys, please keep this going.  It's wonderful.  By the way, if you write to Starmer, if anyone writes to Starmer, do ask him how he can pretend to be eradicating anti-semitism from the Labour Party when he has promoted people with disgusting records for it to the opposition front bench.

Andrew Farmer ● 1764d

Clearly in your career as a political advisor your connection with the truth and with the mind of the voter will win the clients that you advise with many many victories (not)

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

I shall be writing to Sir Keir Starmer about your stance on the law and respect for residents and ctizens of Ealing as well as copying in my local Ward Councillors, Ealing's three MPs, and the administration of the Local Government Association (for who you work) to see what your stance is on these three particular questions? Sir Keir WANTS change let's start by getting rid of some local corruption, i.e. YOU

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

Andy,Do you think that Christians should be descriminated against in the Rose and Crown Pub in South Ealing especially as it is next door to St Mary's Church which is one of the largest Anglican Parishes in Ealing?Yes or No,I shall make sure that your bosses and future employers will be asking you the same question

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

Andy, Do you think that the police should try and prosecute residents for harrassment for photgraphing local fly tipping businesses (including pubs and bars) because the perpetrators feel that ther are being harrassed while refusing to do anything about the criminal offence of fly tipping because they feel that it is beneath them?Yes or No,I shall make sure that your bosses and future employers will be asking you the same question

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

Any pub in Ealing where you are not welcome or try to discredit by transparently bogus falsehoods is fine by me.

Andy Jones ● 1764d

A question to Andy Jones, do you, or do you not approve of some bars and pubs taking 20 to 25 percent of the takings of their resident drug dealer?Yes or No,I shall make sure that your bosses and future employers will be asking you the same question

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

See who is posting https://uk.linkedin.com/in/andrew-jones-b56b40b6

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

Rosco, did you know that some pubs and bars in Ealing get 20 to 25 percent of their resident drug dealer's take?One can but wonder what sort of a community and world we will have in in this country if Andy Jones, political adviser to MPs to Labour MPs in Westminster and former Labour Political Assistant in Ealing Council gets his way as he is so upset about local residents standing up for decent treatment and no drugs and no fly-tipping in their local pubs and bars? One can but hope the fact that Sir Keir Starmer is a lawyer and a silk will mean that the Labour Party will support the well-being of the working man by properly regulating drugs and alcohol and respecting the law rather than indulging the drunken sots in Parliament

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

Blimey, that's SOME posting!  😨

Rosco White ● 1764d

You see Andy, not ALL of us are desparate for our next fix of drugs (alcohol) like you so that unlike you we are NOT prepared to put up with bad service and insulting bahaviour in pubs and prepared to speak up against it.Places where I have encountered appalling bahviour and should be avoided if at all possible include:The Rose and Crown in South EalingThe Red Lion in South EalingRoddy's Bar in South EalingDuffy's on Northfields AvenueCrispins Wine BarAnd I know that I am not alone in that. If you support these establishments and what goes on in them then you are a very low person. Pubs are not good places and as they decline in number so the scum that go to them gets concentrated. One should be very suspicious of people who 'live' in pubs.

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

Hi Andy!Not all of us are like you dependant on our next fix from the drug dealer in our local pub, some of us stand up to drug dealers and bad customer services, who is paying you off?

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

The charm and wit that got you banned from a number of Ealing pubs seems not to have deserted you during lockdown!

Andy Jones ● 1764d

Get a life Christine Mulligan

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

Yawn

Mark Julian Raymond ● 1764d

RE: "Somewhere you have to find a middle of the road".That is simple, leave it alone, don't change it.Havelock Road has been there for decades and generations, it has had a Housing Estate on it, even a Greyhound Stadium for some years, it is not just named after our a general from our Military History, but it is also part of the Local History.If you want to build a Sikh Temple on a road, why choose the Road named in honour of the General who suppressed the Indian uprising and is seen as the enemy?We never told you to rename anything, don't shove your hatred of British Heroes down our throats. Right now I feel just like the IRA did towards us British. We must fight this removal of our Heritage.

Leslie Bailey ● 1765d

Simple name streets after Trees, Plants, lakes , rivers , anything but politicians and living people. Reserve that for only the most outstanding of people without a blemished life. Won't be many!

Raymond Havelock ● 1771d

No argument about The Rabid Right, they are nutters too.I'm all for Common Sense, and renaming/pulling down statues, road names, place names, not teaching certain stuff in schools, banning books/films, etc, etc is all nonsense which the majority of people have no time for.

Rosco White ● 1772d

Well you are quoting the Daily Mail here.  You don't want to believe the Daily Mail!  Rosco rails on about the PC Left and the Guardian but there is also the Rabid Right.  Somewhere you have to find a middle of the road.

Philippa Bond ● 1772d

Look at the timeline of it, first the very bloodthirsty BLM demos  three weeks ago and the violent toppling of the Bristol statue.Even before it is over Khan is telling us heritage statues must fall and place names must change, the Sikh/Hindu/Muslim communities jump on this bandwagon of fear created and we see our own Havelock Road renamed because they chose that road to build a new Sikh Temple, on a road dedicated to the name of who is now seen as the enemy!!!Today in Reading we now have the deaths of three people from someone following on from this atmosphere of hate created via BLM, and other ethnic communities.Rivers of Blood it most certainly is.

Leslie Bailey ● 1772d

In Response To: Phil Kay; there GoFund ME page does, their own UK Spokesperson also said the same (as does their USA Spokesperson too), They do not deny it either.

Leslie Bailey ● 1772d

Leslie - which group are you talking about here?Black Lives Matter's own website says nothing like this whatever. It does say:1."Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives."2."Help Us Fight DisinformationWe need to see what you see. Black Lives Matter is a central target of disinformation and you are a key line of defense. Report suspicious sites, stories, ads, social accounts, and posts about BLM."https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Phil Kay ● 1773d

A violent bloodthirsty Black movement whose stated aims on their own website include removing our police and closure of our prisons and whatever else hinders the black way of life, plus overthrowing Capitalism, and the Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities jump on it's bandwagon for their own anti British ends, clearly proves Enoch Powell was right.

Leslie Bailey ● 1773d

Does it all boil down to Politically Correct Nonsense?It seems to me that The PC Left are ALWAYS looking for something to be offended by and "righted", and when they're disappointed to find nothing, they will create it and then rev it up.Street names, statues, place names, the list is endless - who gives a toss?

Rosco White ● 1775d

It matters a lot. As with Bomber Harris, Churchill, Robert The Bruce or Louis Mountbatten, Havelock is a Hero and even has statues in his honour but is on the BLM hit list like they are.But why build a Sikh Temple on a road named in the honour of Havelock if you detest the man and see him as the enemy?This needs a very organised uprising and hands on campaign to reverse this.Sikhs were our friends once, but not anymore.You have no idea of the absolute anger building up across the country at what has happened in Southall.

Leslie Bailey ● 1776d

It matters not whether he was a hero or not, what he did in later life is what matters and he did a lot.  Quite a lot of people in history have had very shady early years, many went on to become pivotable figures of change and benevolence and philanthropy, some made a fortune and others did not but made inroads for an equal and fair society.It is ignorance that it she poison here and this is being pedalled by so much opinionated but unfactual material and so much of it distorted by those who know better as it suits their interests.

Raymond Havelock ● 1776d

Point is there was a battle, Havelock's side won that Battle, and to many Havelock is a hero amongst men.Several generations later people from the area the losing side are from (Sikh in this case) move into the area and build a temple on that road, we now have to erase the man's name from the area.No, we should have to fight this, with our lives if needed.This whole BLM thing has created a vile nasty Us or Them scenario. LEAVE OUR HEROS ALONE.

Leslie Bailey ● 1776d

Bell End leading to Sharma Passage W3 ( Cyclists Only - One Way)I'm sure A2 Dominion will be happy to oblige accommodating that new desirable development.

Raymond Havelock ● 1777d

I think Bell is hoping there will be a statue in his honour one day....

Simon Hayes ● 1777d

In the past, streets were often named after local councillors - maybe not!

Peter Evans ● 1777d

Talking to the people locally and they all agree it was the weeks of violence, bloodshed and damage by the BLM followers wanting to rename or remove our heritage, that has brought those far right groups back to prominence to physically fight off the BLM movement's threats to statues etc, the far right was dormant until then.Now we have 1000s up and down the country day and night defending our statues and heritage from BLM style attacks.As a nation/population we have been backed into a corner, With only two routes out, there is no middle ground on this.Route 1 is to Remove and rename our heritage (as promised by a number of Labour - Lib Dem councils) so as keep our BME communities happy and they then leave us in peace.Or Route 2 we keep our heritage and place names but remove the community who will not leave us in peace and safety if we keep our heritage.So Government please give the Nation a referendum on these two choices so the people can choose, move on and have peace again, not endless damage and having to protect our heritage day and night.

Leslie Bailey ● 1778d

It's very obvious that resources are not going into dealing with Covid? Just look at the appalling infection and Death rate in this borough and the lack of action and enforcement.  Having to work all over the borough it's almost distressing to see areas where the lockdown has not been enforced and the absolute ignorance of compliance.It's not as though people do not know, it's a form of defiance. Goodness knows why.But clearly Cllr. Bell is under orders from his employer MP.His quotes are the most vile racist stuff I've seen from someone who is an elected representative of all people.His attitude makes one wonder if he hates the UK so much why ever come here? He is clearly someone who thrives on division.Cllr Bell is his  lackey who clearly rather benefits from the same form of politics which just serves his ego and to hell with the fallout.Shameless.If they really cared then safe androgynous and positive names for streets would be selects, not more that still cause division somewhere.Warping history is a deceit. History is there to remind and learn from and no-one on the planet has a glorious history.  If you read enough you will see what really goes on and it's not always comfortable.It's funny how no one mentions which country forced the end of slavery. losing a continent in the process. Which regions were huge slave traders and captors for thousands of years.  That Britons were enslaved and the form of slavery and child labour that British peasants endured for hundreds of years before the industrial revolution and the continuance of that well into the industrial era.A lot of it unpalatable by comparison to now. Having travelled the world working. One thing nice about here is it is far more accepting, diverse and tolerant than anywhere else.  If it were not then no one  from anywhere would be wanting to settle here.

Raymond Havelock ● 1778d

Sir, I believe the term is "Fick".  😂

Rosco White ● 1779d

Thick.

Simon Hayes ● 1779d

>>AF wrote>>  . . . 'History of the English Speaking Peoples' . .>>TH replies>>  'English speaking'?  That's a laugh.  Have you noticed the way that oiks lazily omit pronouncing the 'g' on the end of verbs these days?  Mr Mayor Khan is one of the the worst offenders. 'Engaging' is now engagin, 'avoiding' is now avoidin, 'protecting' is now protectin  . .  etc. Is it an affectation he has deliberately adopted to show he is 'down wid da kidz', or is he just thick?

Tony Heath ● 1779d

I think this was something Khan had waiting for an opportunity to launch for a long time.  I seem to remember one of the Labour promises before the last election was to rewrite British history.  What a disappointment they lost.  We were deprived of "A BAME Woman's History of the English- Speaking Peoples" by Diane Abbott. What was suspicious here was how quickly Bell responded  to Khan's proposition. Did he discuss it with ANYONE?  Just as suspicious there was a suggestion in respect of Havelock Road even before Bell made his statement!

Andrew Farmer ● 1779d

we have to stop pandering to narcissists masquerading as cry babies who want to ban things because they are offended. Being offended is not enough of a reason to ban anything.

Vlod Barchuk ● 1780d

Quite right Rosco. This is in part a displacement activity to avoid dealing with more complicated socio-economic and cultural problems and, of course, it is not the end but merely the beginning of a process of re-writing history. One is seeing this in the banning of comedy programmes and it will extend well beyond that.

Vlod Barchuk ● 1780d

It's all so much complete garbage time & money wasting nonsense isn't it.I would think that any normal, well adjusted & reasonable BAME person doesn't give a flying fornication and never notices, thinks or cares about such things, it's history.However, The PC Zealots are on a relentless mission and BellEnd is only too happy to leap on board, virtue signal and throw OUR hard earned money at it.I have been forever waiting for the PC Backlash To Sheer Common Sense to happen but it just gets worse and worse, it's ferocious.I have always thought that it's not the Far Right you need to be wary of, it's The Far Left, they are FAR more dangerous and unpredictable.

Rosco White ● 1780d

Simon Hayes explained:" We should take a leaf out of the book of the fine city of Kingston upon Hull where there is an entire estate with roads called First Avenue, Second Avenue, etc. Voila, simple and utterly non controversial."Such a naming scheme is quite possibly non controversial to the residents of First Avenue. Quite possibly theresidents of Second, Third and Fourth Avenues might think differently.  In such instances its possibly best to start at say Fourth Avenue, Fifth Avenue, Sixth Avenue etc.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 1780d

>>Philp Coe wrote >>  let's depoliticise street names before we get a Bell View or whatever.>>TH replies>> Too late, my friend.  Remember the horror film 'Quatermass and the Pit' that featured Hobb's End?  Well, Ealing is living its own horror story, featuring 'Bell End'.

Tony Heath ● 1781d

And of course there is a big city on the West coast of the USA with a similar system.  After all a road/street name is only an identifier and does not have to be symbolic or have historic significance.So let's depoliticise street names before we get a Bell View or whatever.

Philip Coe ● 1781d

We should take a leaf out of the book of the fine city of Kingston upon Hull where there is an entire estate with roads called First Avenue, Second Avenue, etc. Voila, simple and utterly non controversial.

Simon Hayes ● 1782d

I think Ealing, Acton & Southall has FAR more important stuff to deal with than this road renaming, removing statues etc.

Rosco White ● 1782d

To add a different perspective that perhaps could be considered ...Should we be encouraging tribalism and segregation? This area here for Sikhs, that for Hindus, etc. The naming of public spaces should not label them in a way that encourages separation and divisiveness. So, ok, if the current name of the road is going to be divisive then perhaps change it to something less parochial.

John Dickinson ● 1782d

Crikey, that’s a very reductive attitude.I should imagine the vast majority of people in this country have no idea who most of the people commemorated with statues are. Old blokes and old blokes on horses mainly. I’m pretty well educated and interested in things but I wouldn’t know most of them without looking it up.However, I propose that the statue of Richard I, the Lionheart, be removed from outside the Palace of Westminster because he was a war-monger who invaded a land to which he was not entitled and led the slaughter of Muslims in the Holy Land. He was barely in England during his reign, so why do we commemorate him thus? He has blood on his hands.

Simon Hayes ● 1782d

Well, the funny thing is that these statues weren't erected during Colston's or Clive's lifetimes; in most cases decades or even a century or so later. And there's a reason why they didn't get statues in their own lifetime. Because contemporary society knew the crimes these men were responsible for. Clive was going to be hauled before Parliament and his honours withdrawn. Anyway, let's return to the present. Can imagine being a young person from a Caribbean or African background in Bristol, walking past a statue of Colston every day, being constantly reminded that you're considered to be worth less than someone with white skin? And if people can only get history from statues, then they probably ought to read some books.

Kevin Wilson ● 1782d

Well put by and agree with Mr Hayes, it's called "History."Get over it, and get on with it, it's the present & future that matters.

Rosco White ● 1782d

Because dig deep enough into anyone’s past and you’ll turn up something unpleasant. If they want to change the name and it’s done legally and properly then fine.But too many people are jumping on this bandwagon now. Yes, the British Empire had many flaws and some terrible things were done but I don’t see why I should be an apologist for it. Do you ask every German you me to apologise for Hitler and the Nazis?History is precisely that - history. It’s happened. We can’t undo things, it’s part of the eternal flow of life, right or wrong to modern eyes. Take down a few statues by all means. Rename a few roads. But do it for the right reason, not just a knee jerk reaction. The danger is by excising chunks of history you fail to learn anything that helps avoid similar in future. I challenge anyone involved in this to show how deeply they have looked into the imperial period.You’d be surprised how many indigenous peoples were willing partners i this subjugation, usually as it meant advancement of their tribe or class. It even happened in Ireland.But then they don’t teach anything in schools at the moment, do they?

Simon Hayes ● 1782d

I was given bad advice from my financial advisor, four weeks ago. He got me to invest £120k in shares, in the Minstrel Theatrical Face Paint Manufacturing Company plc.

Tony Heath ● 1782d

I believe that the legal requirement is that residents in the affected road must be canvassed first on the proposed name change and two thirds must agree for it to go ahead. One wonders what the residents of Havelock Road think about this.You will note that this suggestion emanates from that local MP of mystery Virendra Sharma and endorsed by his lusty acolyte Julian ‘I live on two streets’ Bell. Perhaps consider the portion of the electorate they might be trying to appeal to.If we are to rename roads for the reason that they are named after historical figures who are pale, male and stale then we’ll be in for a busy time. And all this costs money.....

Simon Hayes ● 1782d

PC, woke, virtue signalling - I find these terms are thrown around with such dismissive abandon. What is it that truly bothers you here? That young, liberal people are suggesting our collective history is chequered and that structural racism exists in the UK? Who could possible dispute this? Why are people so insecure about these things being highlighted? Gosh, you call these people snowflakes and then look at how you react when someone talks about renaming a road to something slightly more relevant to the area?

Kevin Wilson ● 1782d

Bell End Towers will be 26 stories. Mahfouz Mews will, as the name suggests, go nowhere. Sabiers Street will be anti-social housing.

N V Brooks ● 1782d

Funny how the dystopian novels of the past eventually turn out to be prophecy rather than fantasy.Where will this political correctness end? What would be the logical conclusion? How many roads will have to be renamed until those panting for change are satisfied? How are we to know that the provenance of the figures selected for new names are unsullied by historical scandal?

Simon Hayes ● 1782d

More Council virtue signalling!“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”― George Orwell, 1984In the 19th century Havelock was second only to Victoria for having things named after him.

Graham Weeks ● 1782d

These seems to have more to do with internal Labour party politics than Black Lives Matter or any broader questions of social justice. Personally I have no problem with the renaming if that is what people in the area want, but as been mentioned previously we should know advance what the cost will be. In these straightened economic times spending priorities should be considered very carefully as hard decisions are already having to be made on what gets funded.

Gordon Southwell ● 1782d

26 storeyshttp://www.ealingtoday.co.uk/default.asp?section=info&page=eapercevalhousefeb001.htm

Andy Jones ● 1782d

>>FH wrote>> No, that will be the replacement Perceval House, re-write the history of Ealing. >>TH replies>> Yes, Perceval House is set to be demolished. Does anybody know what height monstrosity (aka 'slum of the near-future') is set to be built on the site?

Tony Heath ● 1782d

No, that will be the replacement Perceval House, re-write the history of Ealing.

Fred Hunt ● 1782d

The latest news is that Comrade Bell is to rename Ealing Town Hall as 'Nelson Mandela House'.  Cushty, LOL . . .

Tony Heath ● 1783d

Oh Gawd, we all know this is going to get worse and worse, to ridiculous lengths, particularly with Comrade Bell now on some sort of new lunatic mission.Haven't people got better things to do, especially The Dear Leader? Sigh.

Rosco White ● 1783d

Julian Bell jumps aboard the bandwagon. Why doesn’t he just do his job?

Simon Hayes ● 1783d

If the name offends residents, then they should consider renaming.I lived in Havelock Road, Croydon, and didn't have any idea of any history of the name. Just a random road name as far as I was concerned, like a zillion other random road names.Think a road name is different to a statue, which is specifically to honour that person. Happy to see statues removed but changing an address is a really big  deal.The PO will still need to deliver mail to Havelock Road tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade because people will still inadvertantly use the old name.

Mark Vale ● 1783d

similar to Winston Churchill Way,in Gibraltar I guess.Iwouldn't be happy if I lived in Southall, but I don't.

Simon Wycombe ● 1783d