Forum Topic

A reminder of the past few years in politics:

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-billboards-funny-led-by-donkeys-theresa-may-8842596

Philippa Bond ● 2564d42 Comments

'A better solution is to stay in the EU.'Or for the Irish to leave iy.

Graham Weeks ● 2555d

' Let the UK return the occupied counties to their rightful owner. ' Occupied since the pest-reformtion Plantations you mean? One there is one rightful owner? St Patriick?

Graham Weeks ● 2555d

Yes Graham, This was the first real heavy internet campaign in the UK. And it was very effective. The people from Cambridge Analytica and the leave.eu people were very smart in how they managed the campaign and even when the campaign was suspended on the murder of Jo Cox they still kept at it. Aaron Banks and the Russian connection was perhaps the single biggest influence. The Project Fear campaign was so appallingly poor. So with Lies all round it was obvious that people would find it difficult to believe the usual liars such as Bliar, Cameron, Osborne and co. In one way i felt that even weighing things up myself about the pro's and con's it was a marginal choice to vote remain but i disliked the leave politicians more than the remain ones.

Peter Chadburn ● 2555d

No problem.Are you being serious?A better solution is to stay in the EU.

Paul James ● 2555d

Brexit was the Russian cherry on top of the cake. Russia sent thousands of texts via Twitter and and Facebook on the day of the referendum. All this is common knowledge unless everyone is deaf, dumb, and blindhttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/10/17/russian-iranian-twitter-trolls-sent-10-million-tweets-fake-news/

Dennis Bailey ● 2555d

Solution to the Irish border problem ? Let the UK return the occupied counties to their rightful owner.  Resulting in a) no border b) no backstop required c) no problem.

Thomas Hawk ● 2555d

How remarkable then that a house divided stood and won!

Graham Weeks ● 2557d

Vlod,hardly a bit player. read the article. This guy is well known for his views. leave.eu encouraged the immigration debate and they definitely along with the lies of vote leave and the useless vote remain were significant players. They had a sophistication and a ruthlessness that made them effective campaigners. He is dodgy as f*** as my friend in the Isle of Man as he walks past the Rock Holdings office every day. and when i have worked over there including for one of his companies i heard a lot of stories about him.

Peter Chadburn ● 2557d

But leave.eu was not the official leave organisation (that was Vote Leave) so even if all of this is true, it's only a commentary on a bit player in referendum debate. And the animosity between Vote Leave and Banks/Farage is not in doubt.

Vlod Barchuk ● 2557d

If you want to understand more about links between Russia and the leave.eu donor Aaron Banks also read this article.https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/25/the-chaotic-triumph-of-arron-banks-the-bad-boy-of-brexit?utm_campaign=paid-cm-contentmkt-keywee&utm_source=facebook&utm_brand=tny&utm_medium=social&utm_social-type=paid&kwp_0=1181582&fbclid=IwAR0qDn0rNzuF5uReqMalm6yzBD5yzN5VoDD5TctDCJb5OoR0skwmewAApjE

Peter Chadburn ● 2558d

I think you should compare the two statements on Russian complicity - the word "exonerated/exoneration" appears twice used by two different people in contradiction of each other.https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/mar/29/ridiculous-bullshit-donald-trumps-rambling-rally-in-michigan

Philippa Bond ● 2558d

Fair enough Peter. I hold no torch to keep the Conservatives together having left them 20 years ago but I have always wanted out of the CM and EU.

Graham Weeks ● 2558d

That is interesting Vlod. So someone on the leave campaign then must have persuaded them that you can have these. My assertions about Russian involvement are connected to Aaron Banks who bankrolled the leave.eu campaign through the Isle of Man company. He is married to a Russian and has extensive business involvement with the Russians. This information is in the public domain and has been subject to investigation. In the Isle of Man he is well known for these links. My personal anecdotes a a small cross section of people i happen to know. Out of the leave voters i know only a small minority are of the leave, WTO and pull up the drawbridge brigade. Others expected a deal that would give some kind of equivalence of the single market. Yes the russians interfered with the US presidential campaign that has been stated as true. all it was shown was that there is no evidence of collusion between trump himself and the russians. So we had project fear which was a rubbish campaign and project lies which was creative. and now we are in a mess and our credibility as a nation has been damaged. So what we see is that leavers are constantly changing facts constantly as well. we have not been well served by the cheerleaders for either. This is my main point. The question is whether now we are able to find some way out of this mess that doesn't screw us totally.

Peter Chadburn ● 2558d

Your personal anecdotes are as nothing as compared to statement by David Cameron, George Osborne and Nick Clegg that voting leave meant leaving the Customs Unions, Single Market and ECJ. Theresa May Lancaster House speech in January 2017 made clear that's what Brexit meant. Remainers have since tried to muddy the waters to keep the UK tied as closely as possible to the EU.As to Russian interference, don't make me laugh. In the week that claims of Trump colluding with the have been officially stated to be baseless, you undermine your own credibility by making such assertions.

Vlod Barchuk ● 2558d

But the method, configuration of what leave meant was not defined.i accept the result but what the end result is no one knows. In fact no one has clearly been able to tell the EU exactly what we want. The referendum was designed to keep the Tory party together and in the process has divided Britain in many ways and plunged us in to political paralyses.

Peter Chadburn ● 2559d

I was writing about the referendum called by Cameron.

Graham Weeks ● 2559d

Would that be the first ore second referendum?

Dennis Bailey ● 2559d

All I suggest is we do what the referendum said then work out the details. I have never heard anyone suggest this would involve repatriaton of EU citizens. Yes I expect a deal but not one that must happen before Brexit.

Graham Weeks ● 2559d

As per the referendum????? Did it say about customs union and single market and the exact configuration in the referendum?? There are many interpretations of what brexit means. And of course Rees-Mogg and the other carpetbaggers know the only real definition. Your answer is so simple. So as a result we end up with queues at borders for food and people. we end up causing chaos with our partners and kill any goodwill we might have. So with no deal do Europeans living in the UK have to leave. No deal is simply chaos and is not what we voted for. I have met quite a few Leave voters who expected a deal. The Tory manifesto talked about negotiation. Only in recent months have the so called virtues of no deal been expounded by the ERG militants.

Peter Chadburn ● 2559d

Brexit was on the ballot paper, not a deal with conditions.

Graham Weeks ● 2559d

There is no answer that will work for everyone. Implement Brexit as per the referendum then work out the details.

Graham Weeks ● 2559d

Better to stay in the EU than to be in a customs union and have little say.And both are significantly better options than the no deal brexit Graham said he voted for that wasn't ever on the ballot paper.And Graham seems to think we don't pay the £39bn if we leave with no deal, but that's wrong, the 39bn is to cover commitments already made, such as the pension of Nigel Farage. If we don't pay that we will look like right crooks!

Paul James ● 2559d

The customs union is essential to the smooth transport of materials and goods and Theresa May had intended in her deal to negotiate the equivalent. However there was a flaw in her plan with the Irish Border. This issue has to be dealt with. But what is your plan??? Plenty of people say no. But we need to find an answer that can work for everyone. The CBI and Unions would support a brexit that includes a customs union.

Peter Chadburn ● 2559d

'yet the EU leave process has been torpedoed by the need to keep the Tory party together.' Both Wilson's and Cameron's referenda were to keep their parties together. For me, a customs union is no Brexit worth having.

Graham Weeks ● 2560d

I was drinking with two friends from Huddersfield last night whilst they were down in Ealing in the Rugby League. They both voted Leave and it was interesting in that they were very much pro the common market of single market and customs union but very much against the Federal European project. The one had lived and worked in Ireland for a long time but feels that the EU political project was potentially very dangerous for democracy. As a remain Voter i totally agree. Now when suddenly brexit supporters say everyone voted for a no deal then that is clearly wrong. It would also be wrong to say that everyone who voted remain thinks the EU is wonderful. So when we are looking at the reality then how many people voted yes in 1975 to be in the EEC but voted leave in the second referendum. My friends like the economic close links but dont like the political integration. So when we look at parliament now we can see clearly that a solution based around the customs union which would solve the irish border issue is the only way forward. One way of getting out of the EU whilst allowing Industry to operate profitably. It is Theresa May and her red lines that are the issue. So can we expect the can to be kicked down the road until april the 12th? I hope sense will prevail. My friends said they would rather stay in the EU than have a no deal. So the 52% and the 48% within themselves cover a lot of opinions. and yet the EU leave process has been torpedoed by the need to keep the Tory party together.

Peter Chadburn ● 2560d

That wy my Brexit vote. - happier out and not counting any cost. Principle not economics.

Graham Weeks ● 2563d

And you get divorced, expecting to be impoverished, but with the aim to be happier.

Philip Coe ● 2563d

For me it is simple. You agree to this divorce and go for it. Then you sort out the arrangements afterwards. After all there are no children from the union to dispute over their custody. But of course, I have been happily married for nearly 50 years so what do i know?

Graham Weeks ● 2563d

This was the difficulty Graham. A few different interpretations of brexit. I have followed it and learn something new almost every week and still think that it gets confusing.

Peter Chadburn ● 2563d

'we are even more confused'. Include me out of your we please. The confusion is among MPs.

Graham Weeks ● 2563d

My recollection is was a question on the paper about leaving or staying and that was all but my memory could be at fault. I was not influenced by any campaign but reacted to Edward Heath's lies. My memory of that is clear. And he gave me no vote. There was no anti-Common market candidate in Ealing North. Nor did Wilson as I was an expatriate at the time.

Graham Weeks ● 2563d

Yes Paul,also no one thought about the irish border!! So the much despised Customs Union would solve that and also the logistics issues with manufacturing. It has been one almighty mess all along. Whether you are for Leave or Remain you have to admit it!!! So what do we know now??? A lot more about Europe and everything else. With this greater knowledge we are even more confused!!

Peter Chadburn ● 2563d

That wasn't what was on the ballot paper.BOTH leave campaigns explicitly stated a deal would be done first, before even invoking article 50.

Paul James ● 2563d

I do not know about Putin but the EU loves the mess and wants us back. I know why I voted leave and want out now. I voted leave; not for negotiated terms. Out and pay nowt.

Graham Weeks ● 2563d

Actually that is untrue because various leave voters i know thought we could stay in the customs union and get the best of both worlds. So who told them that. We had project fear against project lies in perhaps the most useless, dishonest campaign ever. With Russian backed Leave.eu. So we are in a mess where the british government is in it's biggest mess possibly ever. Oh how Putin must love this!!

Peter Chadburn ● 2564d

During the referendum, every major politician (including all the remainers) said Brexit meant leaving the Single Market, Customs Union and jurisdiction of the ECJ. The waters have since been muddied by remainers trying to prevent this happening, often by stating that people didn't know what they were voting for.

Vlod Barchuk ● 2564d

It shows what a bad decision it was holding the Referendum in the way that it was - to hold a political party together - and without proper preparation on how to deal with different outcomes.  So much of the info was false and the public was ill-informed/kept in the dark.

Philippa Bond ● 2564d

But many of the leavers i know had a different idea of what brexit means ranging from efta eea through to jumping out without a deal. A few have modified their positions. So mps are trying to deal with the poisoned chalice that us voters gave them.

Peter Chadburn ● 2564d

What has been happening is MPs putting their opinions and the EU as more impotant than a democratic decision of the people. That applies to both major parties.

Graham Weeks ● 2564d

They ARE relevant - they hold quotes - and are a reminder of what the population was told - how it was supposed to be all so easy - but it obviously wasn't and isn't.  Now we have MPs unable in Parliament to find a way through.  It should have been discussed like this two years ago.  The political party should not be put before the country - and that is what has been happening.

Philippa Bond ● 2564d

Billboards are irrelevant. What matters and is a disgrace is that a majority of MPs choose not to implement the referendum result. They put the cart of a negotiated settlement before the horse of leaving the EU. We should leave and then negotiate. That is what was on the ballot paper, leaving or staying.

Graham Weeks ● 2564d

excellent Phillipa. This shows that Brexit has never been quite clear. I am a remainer who would choose the common market option but leave the EU federal project therefore satisfying the 52% and the 48%. Funny how some of the folk who support no deal would have said no way a couple of years ago. So for me Customs Union and Single Market (but actually enforce the regulations that we could not be bothered to do before about immigration) but not be in the EU. this would solve the current problem. even more so if we allowed people to make a judgement of whether they agreed or not.

Peter Chadburn ● 2564d