Forum Topic

French Protests

I agree with PEACEFUL protestWe should protest against TFL/Coucils - Khan ultra low emission zone@ 25 quid a day with so called congestion charge. yeah yeah, cue Paul James anti car/pollution etc.But cars, vehicles are a necessity.Sod the 1ss who pay nothing yet want it all for free, then the Boris J types with money no object.What about the rest stuck in the middle paying every last penny & getting nothing but slaughtered at every point

Peter Yale ● 2523d32 Comments

WHAT A LOAD of B*lls

Peter Yale ● 2510d

You are pedantic and fail to make your case as to how my motoring is subidised and how can parking be subsidised? CPZs and the cost of drop downs are exorbitant.Road Tax can be known or referred to as "Vehicle Excise Duty" or "Road Fund Licence" (RFL).Government bribery has nothing to do with subsidising motorists.

Graham Weeks ● 2511d

>I pay tax for a road fund license No you don't>and general taxation pays for roads. Yes it does.>Oil is accessed by companies at a profit to them and massive revenues for OPEC countries.  And how much money do you think our government spends greasing the palms of these countries with trade deals for access to their oil?>Motorists, unlike cyclists are cash cows for the exchequer. We've been here, it's subsidised.>Then there is the cost of parking - another cash cow.Parking is absolutely subsidised.

Paul James ● 2511d

OOPS!

Keith Iddon ● 2512d

Perhaps it'd be worth reading the first post again, Keith.

Phil Kay ● 2512d

This thread is about the French protests. Peter Yale and others seem to have it confused with a motorist/cyclist debate...you know, the one where everyone says the same things two or three times a year when the topic comes up.

Keith Iddon ● 2512d

'You're not thinking total cost of ownership, including damage to roads, people, buildings and the air.Cost of accessing oil, including MASSIVE public infrastructure projects and actual wars etc...'I pay tax for a road fund license and general taxation pays for roads. Oil is accessed by companies at a profit to them and massive revenues for OPEC countries.  Motorists, unlike cyclists are cash cows for the exchequer. Then there is the cost of parking - another cash cow.

Graham Weeks ● 2512d

>Not my impression as I pay for my petrol plus fuel duty plus VAT on it all, tax on tax.You're not thinking total cost of ownership, including damage to roads, people, buildings and the air.Cost of accessing oil, including MASSIVE public infrastructure projects and actual wars etc...Your comparatively trifling payments don't even get close to covering the cost of your driving I reckon.

Paul James ● 2512d

Yup.Many many people in London don't own a car, for which those that do should be eternally grateful and bend over backwards for.Instead we get moaning from many car owners about spending on public transport and cycle lanes etc...

Paul James ● 2512d

Aye! I've been living here for almost 8 years, don't own a car. Neither do the vast majority of my 'bloody immigrant' friends and colleagues. :)

Marieke van der Veen ● 2512d

'And pretty much all studies show that private motoring is a subsidised activity.'What studies?Not my impression as I pay for my petrol plus fuel duty plus VAT on it all, tax on tax.

Graham Weeks ● 2512d

More people doesn't have to mean more cars.

Paul James ● 2512d

Insurance? Ha ha ha!!Speeding and parking fines, entirely voluntary.Congestion charge, needed.ULEZ, needed.Bus lanes. Fair. Roads are for moving people and goods, not vehicles so high capacity vehicles should get priority.And pretty much all studies show that private motoring is a subsidised activity.

Paul James ● 2512d

My whole point was regarding the motorist always being penalised.Congestion charge, ULEZ b***, PCN for speeding, parking "illegally", diesel tax, insurance. Parking via Ringo, bus lane, no left/right turn etc.Protest, we are easy targets.Go stab, maim, throw acid & get a pat on back for being from some kind of deprived section

Peter Yale ● 2513d

300,000 extra people in UK this year , what a shock , more cars , more congestion , more emissions.

Dennis Brogan ● 2513d

very True Keith. The Euro has forced the centralisation of power and control with Goldman Sachs deciding your economic Policy rather than the people. The treatment in recent years of the Greek people is a case in point. some people go on about some countries being reckless with spending on submarines, tanks and Mercedes Benz cars but in reality it is the Greek people who suffered because of this. Yes the Greeks may have  a dodgy tax system but the poor and middle classes have suffered. The well connected have bought fancy homes in London. We had the sight of Merkel telling the Greek people who to vote for or else. Merkel is despised in Greece and also in Portugal. So devolved power and the aims of the maastricht treaty have been betrayed in order that the monolith of the Euro is preserved. I like the idea of being in a European Community where we co-operate but not in a European Union. So as a Eurosceptic Remainer i prefer the Norway option.

Peter Chadburn ● 2513d

Just read my hurriedly written last posting and realise I got my words tangled..too much centralised authority and not enough devolved power leads to unrest.A la 'No taxation without representation' etc.

Keith Iddon ● 2513d

Perhaps so Peter but 'the greater good' under an 'authoritarian regime' reminds me in tone of the regime from 1933-1945 in Germany. I do not for one minute think that they are trying to recreate that nightmare, but too much devolved authority leads to rebellion etc.imo.

Keith Iddon ● 2514d

Keith. my argument is that we have ploughed a very self important solo strategy. we should have combined with like minded people in other countries like denmark and sweden who have similar concerns over the european project. There are enough intelligent voices. The problem is that they need to combine together. If the EU tries to become a single united states then the problems of democracy will get worse as local power will be almost non-existent. The Euro was a first flawed step and the rise of the extremists in europe is the result of the elite in europe believing in their own misguided vision. Yes you are right also about this ever closer union. The only way you can keep so many disparate people in union for the greater good will be an authoritarian regime.

Peter Chadburn ● 2514d

Peter, your argument might hold more water if we were not still asking the same questions and for the same reforms we were asking for 40 years ago. If the EU(NOT Europe) were not such an intransigent monolith staffed by clockwork bureaucrats interested mostly in widening its  power base for its own sake and in 'ever closer union'..(a rather sinister phrase that never carries with it an explanation of what it actually means)..then we may have been able to sit at the top table. Germany and France have had their feet under that table and have not budged to make room for us since they 'allowed' us in after the 'Non Non 'of Degaulle .Good riddance I say.

Keith Iddon ● 2514d

test

Keith Iddon ● 2514d

Yes Keith, maybe not frexit at the moment but possibly itexit!! This was all so predictable and whilst we have talked up our gripes about the EU, the people at the edges of the Eurozone have got totally screwed by the centre. The issue with the EU is that if you have a problem with the Euro then their answer is more of the same. Our relative economic success is because we are in the EU but not in the Euro. Even Countries not in the Euro are forced like Bulgaria to effectively to shadow the Euro. So like the emperors new clothes the EU centre does not tolerate dissent. In one way they will be glad if we go then they can get on with their project unhindered. But as a Eurosceptic Remainer i would rather we stayed in and pointed out the nakedness of that project. The French and others might rebel but also we must be mindfull that the Russians are loving the division that is being sowed in the US and Europe. With their backing of the Leave.eu campaign via Aaron Banks they must be feeling rather smug now at how far Britain has descended.

Peter Chadburn ● 2514d

I am not sure what else the French can teach us ,but having a pop at authority is seemingly one thing. Frexit anyone..?

Keith Iddon ● 2514d

But Luxembourg is in the centre of the EU. The austerity has especially hit the people at the edges like Greece, Portugal, Southern Italy and other far flung regions. But also in France many have suffered. The EURO has caused power and money to gravitate more to the centre. Not being able to manage you own economy and allow currencies to devalue has turned places like Portugal into contracting economies. Recently they have reversed austerity but it is still quite precarious. But one of the reasons so many people have left is because when people complained about austerity the prime minister just told people that if they don't like it then leave. The French have a more active tradition, however it looks like similar protests in the UK are being organised by UKIP/EDL.

Peter Chadburn ● 2517d

Luxembourg are not suffering with EU austerity. Just announced  €2000.00 a month minimum pay and free public transport for all. France are getting  a €100.00 extra a month minimum pay and gas and electric prices frozen for two years.

Nicholas Beard ● 2517d

The Whole austerity argument coming from the EU is very damaging but it meant the big companies and the rich prospered whilst everyone else stood still or suffered. So we need to tackle cheat devices and make the manufacturers pay. So a monthly bill from TFL to VW or Renault might help pay for Crossrail!!

Peter Chadburn ● 2520d

I can understand feeling aggrieved by the change in the Government backing of diesel cars but science, technology and understanding changes.  Cleaner buses are being introduced but what we ourselves do also helps.  Some companies are managing to run electric car fleets and there are second hand electric cars available on the market. There can be tax incentives to change in order to increase take up.  There needs to be a multi-pronged approach and perhaps the problem in France is that they tried to go too far and fast with a disincentive without enough incentives.When people are living and working under stresses it is much more difficult to see a whole picture.

Philippa Bond ● 2520d

But cleaner air would be helped by penalising the gas guzzling filthy cars with cheat devices. they would find their diesel costs increasing and the pollution related charges more expensive. That friend may end up paying £40-£50. My fiance found that travelling on the buses to shepherds bush along the uxbridge road her asthma became worse. also when we look at lung disease the tubes themselves have plenty of filthy air. so this is a case of a multi pronged attack. cleaner buses help greatly. fairer classification and taxing of motor vehicles helps.  prosecution of dirty cheating lorries helps

Peter Chadburn ● 2520d

This policy is focussed around cleaner air rather than reducing car usage. With so many people dying from pollution, we've no choice but to tackle the pollution problem. https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/pollution-air-clean-water-vehicles-diesel-car-tax-lancet-report-deaths-fatal-disease-a8009751.html. Just like my house once burnt coal (though I am not old enough to remember it!), today I still have the fireplace but not the coal fire. If this policy reduces car dependency then it will improve everyone's quality of life. A friend told me that he spends "£30-40 on petrol just driving to South Kensington each week just to see friends." What is wrong with the District Line?

Ben Owen ● 2520d

Very True. if cheat devices are fitted by manufacturers then Tax schemes need adjustment. We have failed as a government on this. but then their incompetence appears to be focused on certain other issues.

Peter Chadburn ● 2521d

This is something that needs to be stopped:https://www.truckanddriver.co.uk/latest-stories/one-12-trucks-caught-using-emission-cheat-devices-dvsa-clampdown/

Philippa Bond ● 2521d

The low emission zones would be ok if the rules were fair. when you have bought a car that is low emission only to find that VW and other companies cheated the tests then you should have your car re-categorised and receive compensation from VW/etc. VW should be forced to pay the difference if you use those cars unless they are modified to solve the issue. This is one aspect of pollution that our law makers have been slow to tackle despite in other countries there being a settlement.

Peter Chadburn ● 2521d