Forum Topic

Patriotism and the Poles

I am saddened beyond measure to discover that anti-Polish literature has been distributed in Huntingdon and that the Polish Centre in Hammersmith has had graffiti daubed at its entrance.  This, no doubt, follows on last Thursday's referendum vote to leave the EU and I am sure that those who have done this would describe themselves as UK patriots.It might be a good idea if they were to acquaint themselves more closely with the history of this country during WWII. At a time when we were under threat from Nazi air-power, brave Polish pilots flew under the command of our own RAF and helped to win the Battle of Britain. Many of these pilots were decorated for their valour; many lost their lives defending our country.  Churchill himself admitted that had it not been for their skill and courage, we might well have lost this crucial conflict.After the war, many of these men settled here, became decent and valued citizens and raised families.  Some who returned home to Poland were persecuted and imprisoned by the Russians.The vilification of anyone for their nationality is abhorrent, but especially the descendants of those to whom we owe such a debt of gratitude.

Thelma Leach ● 3306d20 Comments

AlexI don't think either campaign distinguished itself in presenting its case to the people.  Both used scaremongering to persuade people.  The 'Remain' campaign was guilty of not explaining the economic issues properly.IMHO the 'Leave' campaign misled the electorate by promising £350 million per week for the NHS and,indeed, by suggesting that that was the sum we paid to the EU each week, blatantly lied. If we end up with the 'Norway' option in order to safeguard tariff-free trade with the EU, we will still have to pay the EU for the privilege, we will still have to accept freedom of movement, but we will have no voice at all in EU decisions.  I cannot see how this is an improvement on what we have now.I think we may see many global companies and financial institutions moving their operations to other EU countries.  If they want an English-speaking base, then Ireland could do very well out of this.I do not think that all the people who voted 'Leave' are racist; I do, however, think that all the racists who voted voted 'Leave'.As to whether there will be a recession - watch this space and let's see where we are in a year's time if we invoke Article 50 (which incidentally I understand has to be authorised by both Houses of Parliament).

Thelma Leach ● 3301d

Do you think that all the people who voted remain because they were told about war breaking out if we don't and that there would be a recession and that they would be ''racists'' also used reason in coming to their decision?

Alex Nieora ● 3302d

Fair play ThelmaI'd disagree that nobody is stopping us little Englanders flying our flag, far from itEnd of comments from me

Colin Goodman ● 3302d

ColinThe last thing I would want to describe myself as is a 'little Englander' which implies a lack of interest in the world outside England.  As I have English, Scots & Irish antecedents I would rather call myself British.  But you go ahead if you want to.  Nobody is stopping you from displaying the flag of St George.I don't think that anywhere in what I wrote you will find my views on immigration - either for or against.  I would welcome a proper conversation about the subject, but not one which resorts to 'hate speech' or cheap jibes.  My original post was about the (perceived) racist daubing of the Polish Centre in Hammersmith.  This is how it was originally reported in the press and, as I do not read Polish or have information to which the press is not privy, I think it was quite in order for me to believe what was reported and to comment on it.BTW, my sight is perfect, sadly my hearing isn't what it used to be, I have above average educational qualifications and I can't swim so that probably rules out my being a goldfish.

Thelma Leach ● 3302d

The hilarity of the moral high grounders in this country never ceases to amaze me.It's bordering on racism towards us "little Englanders" who are proud of our nation and flag.For years there's been a snoot cocked towards those of us who display the flag of St.George proudly or dare to voice our pride. Now we have this outrage at racism against Poles due to "little Englanders" daring to want to democratically leave the federal Europe project that is failing and failing badly, and, beyond hilariously, it appears to actually be Poles railing against other Poles!!!! An uneasy shift between cheek left and right in your chair there Thelma?!?!If you dont think immigration is an issue in this country then you are quite frankly either blind, deaf, stupid or a goldfish. Finally people are having the confidence to have grown up conversations about it but way before time.Straw poll in a conversation pre Brexit vote with a Sikh, a Hindhu jock, a Paddy, an Englishman and, wait for it, a Portuguese fella with a Polish daughter in law and which way do you think ALL came down in respect of Leave or Stay??Bumps are due along the way, especially in the short stretch of road ahead of us, but I remain steadfast we'll do alright out of Junckers failing club. We wont be the last to wave Merkel bye bye in the next decade

Colin Goodman ● 3302d

AlexI also thought long and hard about this question.  I came to the opposite view from you.Only time will tell which of us was right - and it may be a long time before this becomes clear.Do you think that those who said they voted 'Out' because 'I want all the immigrants to go home' also used their reason in coming to their decision?

Thelma Leach ● 3302d

Well my vote for Leave was informed and rational. I have PG degree in law and studied and practiced EU law for years and I have campaigned and voted to leave.

Alex Nieora ● 3302d

OK.  I am relieved to hear that this was not, as I thought, anti-Polish graffiti.However, there have been verbal and physical attacks on other immigrants (or supposed immigrants) since the Brexit vote.  Many people seem to have voted 'Out' because they believed this would bring a halt to immigration and/or that immigrants already here would have to return home to their countries of origin.I sincerely hope that the blunt instrument of a referendum will not be used again to decide a far-reaching and complicated decision such as this.  One of the problems of referenda is that people often vote for their own idiosyncratic reasons - e.g. to give the government of the day a kicking - rather than weighing up the pros and cons of the question and coming to a rational decision.

Thelma Leach ● 3302d

I saw same speculation a few days ago on Polish forum.https://polishforums.com/uk-ireland/london-posk-smeared-anti-grafitti-78339/#msg1556567

Paul Webster ● 3302d

Hi Keith - yes I have brought this up with many journalists, including the Metro who mistakenly reported this yesterday. I have asked them and Ealing Today to make a retraction and apology. I am also considering taking this matter further with the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO)

Alex Nieora ● 3302d

That being so Alex I hope you have brought this up with the powers that be at the Polish Centre? It's a travesty if this is so.

Keith Iddon ● 3302d

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Alex Nieora ● 3302d

We too have been alarmed by the increased incidents of hate crime across the UK. Whilst we understand people’s concerns and underlying fears of the uncertainties we all face now, we urge our residents to join together to support and value all members of our communities within Ealing and surrounding boroughs from whatever background.If you have been a victim of hate crime, or you know of someone who has suffered from verbal or physical abuse of this nature, we at the Ealing Equality Council are here to support you and to give you advice. Please do not hesitate in contacting us.EALING EQUALITY COUNCIL:ADVANCING EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS FOR ALL  The Lido Centre, 63 Mattock Lane, West Ealing, London W13 9LA.                                                    Tel: 0208 579 3861, 0208 280 2255; Email: info@ealingrec.org.uk

Hilary Panford ● 3302d

AlbertinaIs this irony?  If not, you're being too hard on yourself...We all have racist tendencies, but we need to guard against them and stop ourselves giving in to bigotry.

Thelma Leach ● 3304d

Thelma, you're right. I'm clearly a whining racist myself.

Albertina McNeill ● 3305d

They seem to believe they now have carte blanche to say what they like whenever they like. NO idea at all where that has come from !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Penelope Crocker ● 3305d

Indeed so Thelma but I can't quite follow the logic that the way the referendum went has awoken dormant racism. We will never know whether if the vote had gone the other way by the same margin some idiots would have been frustrated enough to express their racism even more. Whatever the reason and whoever they are it is wrong.

Keith Iddon ● 3305d

AlbertinaWhile I am in sympathy with your post, I have had some difficulty trying to unpick the logic of what you are saying.  This seems to boil down to:1. You have seen racist incidents involving people who (you assume) were Polish targeted against people of Asian descent.2. Because you assume that the offenders were Polish, they must have been so.3. Polish people are racist.I'm sorry, but the logic just doesn't work for me.  Anyone who treats others with prejudice on the grounds of race, ethnicity or country of origin is behaving in an unacceptable manner.  Doubtless some Polish people are racist, so are many British and, for that matter, Asian people.  It is never right.And, BTW, I am not Polish myself and have no Polish affiliations.  I just cannot stand prejudice.

Thelma Leach ● 3305d

Beyond sad.

Penelope Crocker ● 3305d

Over the last few years I have tried to get advice and information from organisations like Hope Not Hate and Unite Against Fascism with regard to the racist stickers and graffiti that I have seen around the borough. I got no support at all. I have lost count of the occasions I have seen skinheads treat British people of Asian descent in the borough with contempt. The problem is, Thelma, that these incidents all involved people who appeared to be Polish. I agree. Their grandfathers wouldn't be impressed at all.

Albertina McNeill ● 3306d