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"If my thread under the main heading was thought through it is actually a criticism of the cleaning management." You seem to be worming your way out of an apology for your poorly thought through post George. If "There is nothing wrong or inferior or demeaning by being a cleaner" why are street sweeping and litter picking used regularly as a way of demeaning celebrities who get into trouble? Why are delinquent teenagers required to clean public spaces as a punishment? I also deserve and expect an apology for this: "If you are not concerned, then perhaps that says something about your standards, and unawareness of cleaning standards in some other parts of London or the better standards we had in Ealing under the last administration." How do you know what my standards are? My standards were set by a mother who was a housekeeper in Knightsbridge and by a father who worked for the DSS. Standards of cleanliness in Ealing are the responsibility of all those live in the borough. I've lived in Greenford for over twenty years and I have noticed the difference but I would point out that those who drop litter are responsible for the litter problem, not the management or the people they manage. The stinking rancid burger wrappers that end up by the front door of the office block I clean are a real concern for me as they have probably had rats feeding from them, dribbling urine. The mouse droppings that are present thanks to someone else's poor standards of cleanliness are also of concern to me. If I am not very careful when I deal with them I could become seriously ill. On an average weekday I clean twenty toilets. I wipe off excrement, blood, urine, vomit and other unidentifiable stuff. In the process I risk exposure to hepatitis (a serious problem for cleaners who have to deal with sanitary bins), E-coli and assorted other nasties. You may not have noticed, George, that it has become a habit for some to scrape the freshly picked contents of a nostril on the nearest surface - think about that the next time you touch a door handle or the button on a road crossing. I've noticed because it's part of my job to remove them from walls, light switches and urinals (hope you're not reading this over breakfast George). I also breathe in lots of chemicals that are supposed to eliminate bugs but are as much of a risk to me. I have to buy disposable gloves to wear inside the cheap ones that are provided because their linings bring me out in a rash. I get dermatitis on my hands, they are often itchy and covered in weeping pustules. If they aren't it's because I've managed to get on top of the "itch/scratch" cycle for a while, until it starts again. My nails often split along their length because furniture polish dries them out. I have to work quickly because jobs are often tailored to fit the amount a client is prepared to spend rather than the time it should take. The goal posts get moved all the time and there is nothing you can do about it. What began as a two hour job cleaning the communal areas of an office building with a colleague several years ago is now a two hour job I do on my own. The problem is that it now takes more than two hours. The consequence is that I either leave things out and risk criticism or clean everything and do unpaid overtime. Trying to do it in two hours means cracking elbows against doors, tripping over cables, etc. Are you really surprised that I feel like a victim George? If I was paid a reasonable amount for it or had training/qualifications for it (to make it a "profession" in your eyes) and was treated with more respect by people like you, George, that might not be the case.

Albertina McNeill ● 4198d

You seem to be painting yourself as a victim. Others may make you feel that way, but not me. Let me be clear. There is nothing wrong or inferior or demeaning by being a cleaner or a gardener or a security officer or a foreigner or indeed a low paid worker, some who in my experience tend to get the blame for all sorts of ills. What is wrong is the inverted snobbery, or a pre-existing belief, which can suggest that better paid people think of benefits claimants as lazy, work shy etc,etc.What is also wrong is that if one claimant is work shy then so are all claimants. I wonder if some are accusing me wrongly of suggesting that. You could then go on say that one incompetent lazy evasive false promising smarmy MP tars the remaining 649 MPs with the same brush, and so on.Laziness works at all levels. Laziness in claimants are no worse than laziness in well paid professionals. Tempting to be more critical about lazy professionals for a host of reasons.If my thread under the main heading was thought through it is actually a criticism of the cleaning management. They are not supervising enough, and it isn't the occasional lazy cleaner who is the fundamental shock horror reason for Dirty Ealing. Rather than piling in to suggest that all in the cleaning profession should be a protected species, I think it odd that few have taken up the point that cleaning standards in Ealing are generally poor. If you are not concerned, then perhaps that says something about your standards, and unawareness of cleaning standards in some other parts of London or the better standards we had in Ealing under the last administration.Who cares?

George Knox ● 4199d

If you sit in front of a person to advise them about their benefits entitlements you can barely ever be totally certain whether they want to swing the lead. It's better, except in obvious cases, to keep your counsel. Better to be helpful than sneer. DE asks who has met a work shy benefit claimant. I would ask how many claimants does she know who still run a car.Here we are talking about just three years of a working life. Not longer term or lifetime benefit older claimants who generally in my opinion should be moved out of the South East.No one wants these young people to starve to death. They won't. The NHS has better things to deal with. Paying them less than the statutory working wage does not make them slaves. (Look up the meaning of slavery which was abolished by law well over 100 years ago.People need to know what being hard up means. It's not funny. I know. Luckily unemployment is falling. Benefits only really started a few decades ago. These people need really to know that life does not owe them a free lunch.We should remember that the country's finances were messed up yet again by the Labour Party. How do we know? Ed Balls actually confirmed that out loud last week at the Labour Party conference. We can't afford DE's suggestion of employing all workers at full statutory minimum wages anymore. Prior to this terrible recession there had been a drop over 20 years in suicides. Thanks to Labour financial mismanagement suicides went up during 2008-2010. Do Socialists kill more people than the Tories? In 2012 there was thankfully a slight drop in suicides.I suggest DE reads the script instead of misdirecting herself. Kids will get paid if they do community work. So jobs actually would be done by paid people.Cleaning schedules have recently been reduced in unclean Ealing borough. That is partly why it is dirty. You also see some cleaners chatting away on their mobiles and having a fag and a coffee, outside lunch hours. Perhaps some will get the message that they are putting their jobs on the line. There's insufficient supervision which is due to lack of sufficient enforcement by senior Council Officers.Using "community" workers would and should mean that jobs which used to get done, but now stopped, will again be done. Using these workers will enable cleaning frequencies to be increased to former levels. Not a single existing employee needs to lose his job. If they did then they should strike and I would support them.This proposal is better than a wishy washy liberal Labour misguided whinge about putting people out of work. And DE needs to care more about cleaner living.

George Knox ● 4202d