Forum Topic

Assisted Dying Bill - Second reading.

After a long time thinking about this proposed law and discussing it with friends and family, I feel now that its the correct thing to allow medical and legal professionals to allow assisted deaths for those who want to end their lives, provided there are safeguards written into the Act.  What do others feel about this complex question?

Gerry Tan ● 4283d21 Comments

Thanks for that link, Philippa. Pleased to find that I do not have hearing loss despite not being able to hear some of the numbers.

Susan Kelly ● 4276d

Also in preparing for the worst I think we should prepare for the fact that we might actually live longer than we would perhaps choose to - as people are.So we should make sure that we do try to look after ourselves better than many of us do or think that we do.I have been struggling with helping elderly relations with hearing and sight loss.  This makes it more difficult for us to help them.  They never of course thought they would live as long as they have done.  It can be difficult when conversations are misunderstood because of poor hearing - and the answer is not as simple as getting a hearing aid!  You can do a hearing test online:http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/?gclid=CMizn8CJzL8CFYvjwgodARIAOQ  and don't be fobbed off if you are having a problem as it can become harder to deal with and get used to aids including hearing aids later.And make sure that you know about eye health or you may find that something has crept up on you like glaucoma.The RNIB is not just an organisation for blind people but for those who are partially sighted of whom there are many.If you lose your mobility you may find it even more challenging if your hearing and sight is poor.http://www.rnib.org.uk/campaigning-campaign-resources/my-streetIt is also not just good enough to go to all the appointments that the NHS sends you letters for.  They may measure everything but what they do not do is prepare you for losing your sight or hearing.  You need to be very proactive in this.

Philippa Bond ● 4276d

The law on the double effect of analgesics has been clear for decades.

Graham Weeks ● 4277d

Very wise advice Tony - thanks.

Gerry Tan ● 4277d

What I meant to add was that (a) we should all plan for the worst (hope for the best by all means, but one never knows...), and (b) that having a will (which many still don't) will not help one ONE LITTLE BIT in this scenario.  You have to have both - a will and a set of LPAs.ps - I am not in the will writing business despite the sales puff!

Tony Colliver ● 4277d

I have a similar story but with less of a happy ending... so far...A good friend of mine had a massive stroke a few months ago.Fit and healthy, she is in her fifties, so not old.At one point the doctors wanted to switch off life support - explaining that there was no hope for her.The family initially demurred but then, a few days later agreed.Life support was switched off.She kept breathing!And yet the consensus is that this would not have been the case had the same action been taken a few days earlier.Months later she is still alive - but she is horribly horribly disabled and although she occassionally opens her eyes it is very far from clear whether she is aware.She has recently undergone a further two emergency surgeries to relieve pressure on her brain.She remains in hospital where she has been since the day of the stroke.Her husband will never have his wife back again.  Her son will never have his mother back again.  In the mean time they live in a kind of no mans land hoping for the best (after all, Schumaker came through...) but forever wondering if today will be the day that the axe finally falls.Her husband in particular has taken this sudden reversal of fortunes in their previous very happy life together very badly.It's a living hell - both for her and for her family.Change of subject:So far so very sad as I am sure all reading this will agree but her husband situation's is made worse by the imposition of strictly practical difficulties which are proving almost insurmountable.  A little older than her, he is retired and has only a modest pension to draw upon with which he has to continue to pay the mortgage on their house.  As the main wage earner she was responsible for this but he has no access to any of her accounts in order to draw upon funds within them.  Neither does he have access to any of their investments which, although joint, are actually registered in his wife's name - a common enough situation I think you will agree.  So, on top of everything else, he has been plunged into a nightmare of spiralling debt and poverty - and he's not even the one that is ill!The moral of this story is to get a mutual set of LPAs (Lasting Power of Attorney) set up NOW - one pair apiece for each member of the couple - one for your health and one for your wealth - in case you find yourself with a sudden unwlecome change of circumstances yourself.  (Mine are still on the mantle having been filled in over a year ago... I really must get around to sending them off!)

Tony Colliver ● 4277d

"...since Shipman, many doctors do not dare to do this."All the more reason why the law should be clarified.

Tony Colliver ● 4277d

This is where there is a problem.  There is a difference between someone who has a problem in many cases which has worsened and which they don't have any expectation of improvement and returning to better health and who have decided they they want to leave us and in those in a hospital whose chances of living are being determined by someone who has little or no knowledge of the person and feels that they know what quality of life they have.Everybody in hospital needs a friend.

Philippa Bond ● 4278d

I am not religious or disabled, but I do believe in the sanctity of life. My great fear is that the motion of assisted dying has been tabled by able bodied people and a consensus seems to be growing amongst able bodied people that assisted dying should mean that people can die with dignity. This bill does not, I beleive, reflect the views of the disabled who are in their  thousands, and who do not often have the same voice to speak out. This in itself is scary.I want to share with you what happened to the wife of one of my oldest friends. Severely disabled with severe muscular atrophy, she found herself yet again in Kingston Hospital. It must have been at least ten years ago. The doctors then did not want to resuscitate her because they believed her quality of life just wasn't worth living. Had it not been for her husband being there in the theatre she would have died. He persuaded them to resusciate and since then she has gone on to become a CBE and a Baroness. And to think that her parents were told that she would not live beyond two.I agree with Graham and Vlod that if this bill goes through, as it could very easily put pressure on someone to give up even if they are told that they have six months to live. How can we be sure how long someone will live and what their quality of life will be?

Ben Owen ● 4278d

To me the important thing is to find a real way to have safeguards and also to allow those that definitely want to for all the right reasons (whatever they are) to be able to die with dignity. If this bill does not succeed then I hope that the reasons it may not pass are looked into. My Kathy had led a wonderful life in her words but at 53 her lungs were too weak. she had 6 hospitalisations in 6 months and even the best people could not help her. She knew long before that things were not in a good direction. However because she could withdraw treatment the medical people dealt with it all in a loving and caring manner. When a shift changed during the night some nurses who had known her for years came into the room and puts their hands on my shoulder. It was a special moment as I knew that all who had known her for over 25 years at the hospital would also mourn her. So this debate is important and whilst Kathy was able to die on her terms I feel for those that cant who know that their time has come.

Peter Chadburn ● 4278d

Despite my objections to the bill I have no criticism whatsoever for your late friend and my sympathies are to you Peter.Two things to say. Carey said Tony Nicholson's locked in syndrome was a factor in his volte face. But Tony was not in a terminal state so the Bill would not have helped him.Secondly, most people do not realise that a doctor can legitimately give enough analgesic to relieve the pain though knowing such a dose will so depress heart and respiration so that death may follow. However, since Shipman, many doctors do not dare to do this. It remains perfectly legal. No-one needs to die in agony.

Graham Weeks ● 4278d

Peter, I found your description quite beautiful and touching - thanks for sharing your remembrances of your girlfriend. I think I share the same sentiments as yourself. Grateful for your thoughts.

Gerry Tan ● 4278d

As a Christian I feel that whilst life is a gift, I do feel that in some circumstances with the right safeguards this could be the right thing to do. My girlfriend 5 years ago decided to not continue with the treatment as her lungs had pretty well nothing left. She could not survive without ventilation and so she was given appropriate relief and allowed to die peacefully. She was a devout Christian who was at peace with God and the world. But she also valued life having a quality. So in a sense assisted dying already occurs where a person with a sound mind discontinues treatment. With treatment she may have lasted another week or two. But she was ready. I feel that she had control and so was able to get her wishes. others currently lose control and are trapped in a horrible death. as long as it clearly the persons wishes and these wishes are witnessed by appropriately independent people then like a will this should be allowed. But never should anyone who just feels a burden be allowed to die as that is the wrong way. I knew my girlfriends wishes and I knew I could not question them. I had to out of love and respect allow her to die. I did not want that but sometimes when you love someone you have to let go of your own feelings. So I agree with the Bill as long as safeguards are built in.

Peter Chadburn ● 4278d

I noticed last night that Desmond Tutu has also voiced his opinion in favour of it

Tracey Mehdizadeh ● 4279d

I read with interest that Lord Carey, former Archbishop of Canterbury, seems to be supporting assisted dying. That's not such a surprise to me as the good Lord Carey is a man who expresses his own mind on contraversial and delicate subjects and opinions.

Gerry Tan ● 4281d

I understand your points Vlod, but after years of questioning and debating this delicate question I've recently decided that voluntary euthanasia is OK for me provided the safeguards are exercised by at least two independent people. And I'm a Christian.

Gerry Tan ● 4282d

This is a matter of the value that society puts on life so there is no neutral position. Currently the law makes clear that life is sacred and should be preserved. An assisted suicide law would affect everyone because it would say that life is no longer sacred; it’s just a matter of personal choice. Personal choice works best for those who are best able to exercise it, which is not the sick and disabled – perhaps that’s why groups representing the disabled are opposed to euthanasia in all its forms. What starts out as a choice becomes a tacit expectation that you will end your life when you become a ‘burden’.

Vlod Barchuk ● 4282d

But those of us who are not Christians do not see why we should be dictated to by believers. If you don't want assisted suicide for yourself, that's up to you, but don't force others to live in a situation they find intolerable.

Susan Kelly ● 4282d

From a friend with MS.http://www.christian.org.uk/news/video-ms-sufferer-speaks-out-against-assisted-suicide/

Graham Weeks ● 4282d

I disagree on the grounds of Christian faith, believing that life is a gift from God and not ours to take away. Voluntary euthanasia would be a temptation for those who regard their lives as a burden to others The suspicion could also arise that your doctor no longer had a calling solely to help patients to live to say nothing of the intentions of persons who could benefit from your death. But if you do not belief life is sacred, why not end it conveniently.

Graham Weeks ● 4283d

I totally agree with you Gerry, we don't allow our animals to suffer yet we allow our family, friends loved one long drawn out painful distressing illnesses to kill them slowly often painfully, taking away their choices to make the decision to end their days with dignity.

Tracey Mehdizadeh ● 4283d